Fate... Free Will vs Predestination

[JLB]

Even discussing here only works because of free will Amen, thank you Jesus you set the prisoner free .....

Amen!

 

[GodsGrace]

The word draw seems to be an issue. Maybe if one holds God is sovereign, if God draws He will succeed. But if the drawing, attraction, calling is a voice in the desert, it is those who respond who are counted worthy.

But an action of a sinner to be counted at all is regarded as heresy.

Agreed. The N.T. holds us to good works which God has prepared for us....but how many times have we all heard that we sin by trying to help God. IOW, we sin by doing good !!
Which reminds me of:
Oh what a tangled web we weave
when in our hearts we first deceive
(I think)

IOW,,, when we get one important doctrine wrong...
all the others must also be adjusted....
so the N.T. becomes a confusion of teachings.

As to the word draw....I have no problem
My Italian bible, much as is the greek, does distinguish between all the verses with the word "draw"...I'm sorry the English does not do this. About a week ago I gave the translations for the word DRAW in the different verses....and if one checks with Strong's it does show to be correct.

So the fruit of total depravity is no meaningful choice or some would say, reducing the power of the cross.

But the cross works because of free will and choice. God freely chose the impossible to save the lost, to be a light, to guide them home.

Light only works in a free world, without choice there is no point to sight or guilt or shame or repentance.

Even discussing here only works because of free will Amen, thank you Jesus you set the prisoner free .....

Well said !

 

[GodsGrace]

Amen!

You're saying AMEN to this statement of PeterJens :

Even discussing here only works because of free will Amen, thank you Jesus you set the prisoner free .....

It's good that you brought attention to this...something I never thought of.

If God DETERMINES everything and free will is compatible (which is no free will) then the mere fact that we discuss two opposing ideas (between reformed and non-reformed) certainly DOES make God a God of confusion!

Why would God want us to even have these discussions?
Is He working against Himself?
Is He a God of tricks?
or even worse....

 

[OzSpen]

You're saying AMEN to this statement of PeterJens :

Even discussing here only works because of free will Amen, thank you Jesus you set the prisoner free .....

It's good that you brought attention to this...something I never thought of.

If God DETERMINES everything and free will is compatible (which is no free will) then the mere fact that we discuss two opposing ideas (between reformed and non-reformed) certainly DOES make God a God of confusion!

Why would God want us to even have these discussions?
Is He working against Himself?
Is He a God of tricks?
or even worse....

wondering,

Have you considered the content of Jesus' message in John 6:37 (NASB): 'All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out'?

There are 2 parts:

1. There is the sovereign ministry of God the Father: 'All that the Father gives Me will come to Me'. Could we call this election or predestination. However, there is a second part to people's coming to Christ:
2. 'The one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out'. This is a figure of speech known as a litotes 'in which something is affirmed by negating its contrary'.

Jesus affirms that whoever comes to him will never be driven away. So, the two parts are:

a. The sovereignty of God in giving believers to Jesus, AND
b. The human responsibility of 'whoever comes to me'. In modern philosophy this is called 'compatibilism'.

John does not see human responsibility as lessening God's sovereignty. Both are necessary in God's plan of salvation.

IOW, John 6:37 affirms God's sovereignty and human response in salvation. However, I'm aware that even free-will decisions are contaminated by comprehensive depravity.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

Have you considered the content of Jesus' message in John 6:37 (NASB): 'All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out'?

There are 2 parts:

1. There is the sovereign ministry of God the Father: 'All that the Father gives Me will come to Me'. Could we call this election or predestination. However, there is a second part to people's coming to Christ:
2. 'The one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out'. This is a figure of speech known as a litotes 'in which something is affirmed by negating its contrary'.

Jesus affirms that whoever comes to him will never be driven away. So, the two parts are:

a. The sovereignty of God in giving believers to Jesus, AND
b. The human responsibility of 'whoever comes to me'. In modern philosophy this is called 'compatibilism'.

John does not see human responsibility as lessening God's sovereignty. Both are necessary in God's plan of salvation.

IOW, John 6:37 affirms God's sovereignty and human response in salvation. However, I'm aware that even free-will decisions are contaminated by comprehensive depravity.

Oz

I also agree that man is born depraved.
The question is: HOW depraved is man?
Is he so depraved as to be unable to reach out for God?

I think this is the main difference with calvinism....
that theology believes in man's total disability to reach out for God. I believe man is born with the sin nature and is thus unable to please God...however, Romans 1:19-20 tells us that man has always had the ability to find God,,,which is why each man will have no excuse when he stands before God.

As to John 6:37 I find this verse to be rather conflicting....
How does one reconcile these two:

John 6:37
37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.


John 14:6
6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.


I believe the answer lies in John 6...if one continues to read, the answer is made clear:

John 6:40
40“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

So, yes, the Father desires that all men be saved,
1 Timothy 2:4
So it is God giving those wanting to be saved to Christ...since we are saved by the blood of Christ....
And Jesus is the way to God...if we are a disciple of Christ, the Holy Spirit will dwell in us and that will be our source of eternal life.

I think we agree and I understand you two points.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

This is a topic that I could never comprehend and I suspect humans don't have the capacity to fully understand it.
I've listened to different people and theologians give their opinions and theories but none of them sound convincing.

Let's start by defining the truths.
1/ The bible teaches us that we have free will. (the extent of that is probably debatable)

Free will is having the ability to choose between two or more options.. Men do have this capability, Joshua 24:15; 1 Kings 18:21. Men are made after the image of God meaning men share some traits with God such as reasoning ability, creativity and free will in choosing between options.

2/ God is omniscient. He knows what we are going to do. (the extent of that is debatable i think)

I don't think there is anything God does not know.

3/ Many bible verses confirm predestination (the extent of that is also debatable I think)

The Bible teaches corporate election of a group (Christian) therefore those who of their own free will chooses (free will is choosing between options) to become a Christian becomes part of this foreknown, predestined group. The Bible does not teach unconditional election of the individual separate and apart from the group Christian, separate and apart from the word of God, separate and apart of what man does.

So how can we have free will when God has a predestined path for us and knows what we are going to do?

God has not done this. Such an idea would make God culpable for all the sins, evil men commit. Acts 2:23 how could Peter rightly, justly condemn those Jews for their wicked hands in crucifying the Messiah if God forced them to do it thru predetermination? If Calvinistic predetermination were true, then God is the One who murdered an innocent man and God used those Jews as His weapon of choice to carry out this murder. Those Jews were free will-less, objects (robots) only able to do what God forced them to do. Can you willfully choose to shoot and kill someone then blame the murder you chose to commit on the weapon (gun- an object) that had no free will in what happened?

But we know God has foreknowledge of the choices men will make. God foreknew that if he sent Christ to earth at the time He did, those Jews and Romans of their own free will choice would choose to crucify the Christ. Therefore God used THEIR free will choice to carry out His own will in Christ dying for mankind therefore God cannot be held culpable for THEIR free will choice.

Let's say I have 20 options what I will eat for dinner. It feels like I have free will.
But God already knew I would eat the T bone steak before I even started to think about it.
Or did he only know when I had decided to eat the T bone?

I recall Jesus predicting Peters 3 denials when Peter hadn't even thought of it yet. So it seems God knows before we even consider it.

Foreknowledge does not demand predetermination. It could be argued that somethings God foreknows do not come about. In Jonah 3 for example God said yet in 40 days Nineveh would be overthrown (Jonah 3:4). Yet 40 days later Nineveh was not overthrown, does that mean God lied? God foreknew the destruction that would take place with Nineveh if Nineveh did not repent, but Nineveh did of their free will choose to repent (Jonah 3:7-9) God therefore repented, that is, God changed His course of action. Why would God ever have to repent-change if He has already laid everything out having predetermined all that happens? Nineveh repenting was THEIR choice and God reacted to THEIR choice by changing His course of action to not destroying Nineveh as previously He said He would

What exactly is predestined? Is it our fate after death? Is it every little think we say, eat and do? Or somewhere in between?

A quick look and I noticed there are a wide range of theories on this and many theologians who have attempted to crack the puzzle.

So what do u think? Do u have a theory on how God's omniscience can combine with free will and predestination?

Or do u give up like me and just say
"God. Your glory and wonder is beyond the capability of my mind to comprehend. And so i leave my faith in You Lord"

God has predestined the unbeliever to be lost (Jn 3:18) and the believer to be saved (Jn 3:16) but God does not predetermined for men which ones will or will not believe. Man uses his own free will and chooses that for himself making man culpable for his own decisions. Therefore on judgment day, God will had out a sentence to you based on the choice YOU made. If you chose to believe you will hear 'well done, enter in'. If you chose to not believe you will hear 'depart from me'. God does not capriciously, unconditionally choose winners and losers against the will of man, regardless of what man does. God does not predetermine all a man does thereby making God culpable for man's evil choices and sinful actions.