Fate... Free Will vs Predestination

[JLB]

You gave not one example to support these 2 assertions. Therefore, I'm left to conclude this is JLB's opinion - until you come up with the evidence to prove your statements.

Of course it is my opinion, and I’m not alone.


Does the King James Version contain the word, Sovereign?


Here is the word as used in the NASB, where it appears once —


which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1 Timothy 6:15


Sovereign - Strongs G1415 - dynastēs

Noun

1. a prince, a potentate
2. a courtier, high officer, royal minister of great authority

JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry i started this thread then i vanished and missed the conversation...

wondering and JLB did that girl with the multiple personalities ever respond?

No. She was last seen this past Wednesday and didn't reply to her thread.
This happens often. People come, ask for prayer and then leave.
I just pray she understood the answer....
(so she could be secure in her salvation).

 

[PeterJens]

No. She was last seen this past Wednesday and didn't reply to her thread.
This happens often. People come, ask for prayer and then leave.
I just pray she understood the answer....
(so she could be secure in her salvation).

Today I felt discouraged, listening to people praising God as if He just openly accepts them without anything is response. The words of one song was it is so easy.

The idea God is easy, is so insane. God is Holy, God is dangerous, God is very other, where we need caution, awareness, humbleness, cleansing, knowing our frailty and His desire to speak with us and for us to know Him. To sacrifice, to dedicate ourselves to His ways and His perspective is everything.

Maybe our wealth, our prosperity, our ability to take risks and ignore boundaries, yet today we face potential pandemic, massive death on a scale we have not seen for a lifetime. What do people think judgement looks like? We stand on a population bubble like at no other time in our history, yet you would think nothing really matters, just open arms and saying God is great. Very dangerous stuff.

 

[atpollard]

Brother, I’m not going to discuss some “Catechism” or “Commentary” from other men’s opinion.

I did not ask you to discuss it.
You asked what I believed and I told you.

 

[JLB]

Do you still beat your wife?
It is a Yes or No answer!

Why is it so difficult for you Calvinist folks to just answer a simple question.

I’m not playing a game.

I asked you if you believe a person must first be saved; born again, regenerated in order for them to believe the Gospel.


It’s a yes or no answer.


If you don’t want to answer this question, I can certainly understand why, then don’t.

It’s your choice, because you have a freewill.


Personally from what I have studied in the scriptures, salvation is plainly the result of believing.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16



Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12



If you believe a person is first saved, before they believe, then please explain to us, when this salvation takes place.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I did not ask you to discuss it.
You asked what I believed and I told you.

Here is what I asked you —


Again, my question is...

Where does the idea come from that a person must first be saved in order to believe?


This is what one Calvinist claimed.

In order to believe, first the person must be born again, saved, regenerated.


Is that what you believe?

That a person is first saved, then they can believe the Gospel?



This is what you stated —

Here is what I believe:

Question 29: How are we made partakers of the redemption purchased by Christ?
Answer: We are made partakers of the redemption purchased by Christ, by the effectual application of it to us by his Holy Spirit.

Question 30: How doth the Spirit apply to us the redemption purchased by Christ?
Answer: The Spirit applieth to us the redemption purchased by Christ, by working faith in us, and thereby uniting us to Christ in our effectual calling.

Question 31: What is effectual calling?
Answer: Effectual calling is the work of God's Spirit, whereby, convincing us of our sin and misery, enlightening our minds in the knowledge of Christ, and renewing our wills, he doth persuade and enable us to embrace Jesus Christ, freely offered to us in the gospel.

Question 32: What benefits do they that are effectually called partake of in this life?
Answer: They that are effectually called do in this life partake of justification, adoption, and sanctification, and the several benefits which in this life do either accompany or flow from them.

(from the Shorter Westminster Catechism)

This has nothing to do with my question, and is just more commentary from some catechism.

Why not not just answer a person’s question?


This isn’t telling what you believe, it’s quoting what some other people believe and nothing to do with a simple question.

Question-

Is that what you believe?

That a person is first saved, then they can believe the Gospel?



JLB

 

[atpollard]

Why is it so difficult for you Calvinist folks to just answer a simple question.

I’m not playing a game.

I asked you if you believe a person must first be saved; born again, regenerated in order for them to believe the Gospel.


It’s a yes or no answer.

It is not a simple Yes or No answer.
“Saved” is a complex mystery in the Bible.

• In a sense, we were saved before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4].
• We were saved while still dead, living in the flesh and deserving of wrath [Ephesians 2:3-5].
• We are saved when the Father draws us to the Son [John 6:44] [John 10:29] [Acts 16:14].
• We are saved when we confess and believe [Romans 10:9-10].
• We are saved as an ongoing process as we work out our salvation [Philippians 2:12].
• We look forward to the completion of our salvation as a future event [1 Thessalonians 5:8-9].
• Our salvation will not find completeness until the accuser of the brethern has been thrown down [Revelation 12:10].

So in spite of your repeated insistence, it is not a question that can be truthfully answered with a simple Yes or No.


Yes, God must first act before a person can believe the Gospel (scripture says so):

• [Mat 13:19 NASB] 19 "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil [one] comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.
• [1Co 2:14 NASB] 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
• [2Co 4:3-4 NASB] 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

No, a person is not saved without believing and repenting.

• [Rom 10:8-10 NASB] 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Both parts work together:

• [Act 2:37-39 NASB] 37 Now when they heard [this,] they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Peter [said] to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."
• FIRST God PIERCED them to the heart [Ezekiel 36:26]
• SECOND men RESPONDED by repenting and getting baptized.
• THIRD God gives us the GIFT of the Holy Spirit.

Not “either YES or NO” but both “YES and NO”.

 

[JLB]

No, a person is not saved without believing and repenting.

Thank you for your answer.


I agree.


JLB

 

[Christ the King]

No. She was last seen this past Wednesday and didn't reply to her thread.
This happens often. People come, ask for prayer and then leave.
I just pray she understood the answer....
(so she could be secure in her salvation).

Hadn’t seen any

Ok I started to wonder if maybe she was a troll, weather my concern was for nothing.

Im not sure if it's possible to be too empathetic but sometimes I think I am

 

[for_his_glory]

Today I felt discouraged, listening to people praising God as if He just openly accepts them without anything is response. The words of one song was it is so easy.

The idea God is easy, is so insane. God is Holy, God is dangerous, God is very other, where we need caution, awareness, humbleness, cleansing, knowing our frailty and His desire to speak with us and for us to know Him. To sacrifice, to dedicate ourselves to His ways and His perspective is everything.

Maybe our wealth, our prosperity, our ability to take risks and ignore boundaries, yet today we face potential pandemic, massive death on a scale we have not seen for a lifetime. What do people think judgement looks like? We stand on a population bubble like at no other time in our history, yet you would think nothing really matters, just open arms and saying God is great. Very dangerous stuff.

It is easy until trials and persecutions come against them then they say there is no God. If there was I wouldn't be going through the things I'm going through. They end up choosing their course of action as they end up denying God in whom they truly never knew. God has enabled people to chose their own destinations and freewill determines their freedom of choice.

 

[atpollard]

This has nothing to do with my question, and is just more commentary from some catechism.

Why not not just answer a person’s question?

I did answer. I am sorry if you did not like the answer you received.

You asked ...

Is that what you believe?

To which I responded ...

Here is what I believe:

Some questions do not have a YES/NO answer (“Do you still beat your wife?”) and the question of the work of man and the work of God in salvation cannot be answered with a simple YES or NO about whether salvation or belief comes first.

 

[PeterJens]

I did answer. I am sorry if you did not like the answer you received.

You asked ...


To which I responded ...


Some questions do not have a YES/NO answer (“Do you still beat your wife?”) and the question of the work of man and the work of God in salvation cannot be answered with a simple YES or NO about whether salvation or belief comes first.

It is interesting that Wesley and Whitfield were friends, and agreed they held different views on faith and it's causes.
I know the discussion is long, so I see love and respect as fruit rather than I am right.
The core of many an issue is the heart and speaking from it. Cleansing brings clarity, and simplicity, without which all is dark. God bless you

 

[JLB]

I did answer. I am sorry if you did not like the answer you received.

You asked ...


To which I responded ...


Some questions do not have a YES/NO answer (“Do you still beat your wife?”) and the question of the work of man and the work of God in salvation cannot be answered with a simple YES or NO about whether salvation or belief comes first.

I find other Calvinist, using this same tactic, when asked a simple question that they don’t like.


When I asked you if you believe that a person, must first be saved, before they can believe the Gospel, you didn’t answer that question, but listed a bunch of answers from some catechism.

Brother, if your honest, that was not answering my question.


That type of dialogue doesn’t serve the interest of Jesus Christ, as His followers.

Do you believe a follower of Jesus Christ, should believe and practice what Jesus Christ taught?



JLB

 

[JLB]

Some questions do not have a YES/NO answer

I didn’t ask to some “trick” question, sir.


I asked a question that pertained to salvation.

I asked if you believe a person must first be saved, before they can believe.


This is what some people teach.


It’s not a trick question.


Thankfully you did finally answer.




JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

It's not about what Calvin or Armenian or any other mans doctrines/theories as it's all about the infallible word of God and what He has already taught us. If it is not the doctrine of Christ being taught then believe no man in what they speak. 2 Timothy 3:16, 17; 2 Peter 1:19-21

 

[JLB]

Yes, God must first act before a person can believe the Gospel

God’s act was to send His Son to pay for our sins on the cross.

God then sends those to preach the Gospel.

Man either obeys the Gospel or not.


“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB




JLB

 

[atpollard]

Do you believe a follower of Jesus Christ, should believe and practice what Jesus Christ taught?

That is another question that you have already asked me and I have already answered.
Let me respond with a simple and honest question:

What purpose would be served by answering it again?

 

[atpollard]

Thankfully you did finally answer.

I did not answer with a “simple yes or no” because SAVED is too complex of a word to come BEFORE OR AFTER belief. Saved extends from God’s relationship with us before we were born until God’s relationship with us in eternal glorification. SAVED comes BOTH before and after BELIEVED.

So in a sense, it was a “trick question” that you were asking.
You simply chose hear only the “NO” that you wanted to hear.

The Catechism did present the truthful answer, you just chose to reject it because it was a Catechism rather than the “Yes” or “No” that you had prejudged to be the only choices. My personal detailed answer also explained why it was not a simple ”before/after” relationship and you chose to see only the “No.”

You have defined a false either/or choice and accuse me of not answering the question when I tell you that the choice is not either/or.

 

[atpollard]

God’s act was to send His Son to pay for our sins on the cross.

God then sends those to preach the Gospel.

Man either obeys the Gospel or not.

“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB

JLB

• [2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NIV] 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
• [Romans 3:10-11 NIV] 10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.
• [1 Corinthians 2:14 NIV] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

Therefore, God does indeed act prior to belief (beyond sending Christ to die and be resurrected).

• [Romans 8:29-30 NIV] 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
• [John 6:44 NIV] 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
• [Hebrews 12:2 KJV] 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
• [Philippians 1:6 NASB] 6 [For I am] confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

 

[JLB]

That is another question that you have already asked me and I have already answered.
Let me respond with a simple and honest question:

Here is what an honest, straight forward answer that promotes clear understanding on both parties, in order to promote unity and fruitfulness, to the question I asked.


Question:

Do you believe a follower of Jesus Christ, should believe and practice what Jesus Christ taught?


Answer: Yes, I believe a follower of Jesus Christ, should believe and practice what He taught.


If you answered my question in this way, show the thread title number where you did.

What purpose would be served by answering it again?

If you did answer it honestly, then just post the thread number where you did.


Thanks.


JLB