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Fate... Free Will vs Predestination

JLB said:
Brother, I’m not going to discuss some “Catechism” or “Commentary” from other men’s opinion.

I asked you if you believe a person must first be saved; born again, regenerated in order for them to believe the Gospel.

It’s a yes or no answer.
JLB
Click to expand...

JLB,

I don't find this kind of response to be helpful because:
  • Catechisms and commentaries are prepared by God's gifted teachers. To discard the content of catechisms and commentaries is to reject God's teaching gifts (1 Cor 12:28-29; Rom 12:7; Eph 4:11-12).
  • You are teaching us your view in this thread. Your wanting a 'yes' or 'no' answer seems to involve your presupposition of the precision of the answer.
  • Could you be too dogmatic on this point?
Oz
 
atpollard said:
God clearly takes an active role in the Judgement that sends many to “perish”.
Click to expand...

Those who disobey the truth, God certainly takes an active in their judgement.; whether eternal life or eternal damnation.

He gives to each person according to their deeds.

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath.
Romans 2:6-8


  • eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
  • but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath.


JLB
 
OzSpen said:
JLB,

I don't find this kind of response to be helpful because:
  • Catechisms and commentaries are prepared by God's gifted teachers. To discard the content of catechisms and commentaries is to reject God's teaching gifts (1 Cor 12:28-29; Rom 12:7; Eph 4:11-12).
  • You are teaching us your view in this thread. Your wanting a 'yes' or 'no' answer seems to involve your presupposition of the precision of the answer.
  • Could you be too dogmatic on this point?
Oz
Click to expand...


I think you can see, I point people to the scriptures, and what the scriptures say, and desire people to dig in and study the scriptures for themselves.

I also emphasize the use of biblical words and terms, rather than using extra biblical words to establish doctrine.


Why not prove your doctrine from the scriptures using the words of the Bible, and what they mean.

Why not be straightforward in our discussion when a person is sincerely asking a question.


Again, this is my goal, to have a good discussion where anyone can join in and contribute, from the scriptures, not from the commentary of their favorite bible teacher.

The body of Christ is divided over many doctrines.

This should not be.

Divisions come from following the teachings of man, rather than the teachings of Christ in the New Testament.


Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 1 Corinthians 1:10-13


If the doctrine you believe is biblical, then why the great need to use commentaries and quotes from catechisms?

Why such the push back on wanting to use scripture, and biblical words in our posts?


I just don’t think this is too much to ask.



JLB
 
atpollard said:
Even if that is so (there is room for debate about who 2 Peter 3 is referring to by “any” and “all”), God clearly takes an active role in the Judgement that sends many to “perish”.
  • [Mat 7:23 NASB] 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
  • [Mat 25:41 NASB] 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
  • [Luk 13:27 NASB] 27 and He will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.'
Click to expand...


Amen. God takes an active role in the Judgement that sends many to perish.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


He takes an active role in those He gives eternal salvation to, as well.



JLB
 
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atpollard said:
Even if that is so
Click to expand...

Why wouldn’t 2 Peter 3:9, be so?

For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 2 Peter 3:5-12

This concerns all who need to repent, so that they do not perish.

Unbelievers who scoff at His coming, as well as those among the Church who are not living right, and need to repent so they don’t perish.



JLB
 
One thing I know we can all agree on is:

God is good.

He is for us.

He loves us.

He is our Comforter and Shepherd.





He is our Victory!
 
Christ the King said:
Ok I started to wonder if maybe she was a troll, weather my concern was for nothing.

Im not sure if it's possible to be too empathetic but sometimes I think I am
Click to expand...
I think that it's good to take persons at face value to begin.
Trolls are discovered soon enough.
The mods take care of this but if you have a doubt you can always report the post.
 
PeterJens said:
Today I felt discouraged, listening to people praising God as if He just openly accepts them without anything is response. The words of one song was it is so easy.

The idea God is easy, is so insane. God is Holy, God is dangerous, God is very other, where we need caution, awareness, humbleness, cleansing, knowing our frailty and His desire to speak with us and for us to know Him. To sacrifice, to dedicate ourselves to His ways and His perspective is everything.

Maybe our wealth, our prosperity, our ability to take risks and ignore boundaries, yet today we face potential pandemic, massive death on a scale we have not seen for a lifetime. What do people think judgement looks like? We stand on a population bubble like at no other time in our history, yet you would think nothing really matters, just open arms and saying God is great. Very dangerous stuff.
Click to expand...
We're told to work on our salvation with fear and trembling.
Philippians 2:12

This means that God is to be respected....
He is our LORD, Our Lord and our Savior.
Sometimes we treat Him too much like a nice friend.
I suppose He can be considered to be that too,,,but I agree fully with you;
God should be feared in a respectful kind of way.ù
God didn't reveal Himself to us for no reason...but to allow us to know Him,
decide if we want to serve Him...and then go ahead and do so.

We just have to pray that those that truly want to be saved will come to understand this.
Be perfect,,,like Father is perfect.
Matthew 5:48
 
atpollard said:
I did not answer with a “simple yes or no” because SAVED is too complex of a word to come BEFORE OR AFTER belief. Saved extends from God’s relationship with us before we were born until God’s relationship with us in eternal glorification. SAVED comes BOTH before and after BELIEVED.

So in a sense, it was a “trick question” that you were asking.
You simply chose hear only the “NO” that you wanted to hear.

The Catechism did present the truthful answer, you just chose to reject it because it was a Catechism rather than the “Yes” or “No” that you had prejudged to be the only choices. My personal detailed answer also explained why it was not a simple ”before/after” relationship and you chose to see only the “No.”

You have defined a false either/or choice and accuse me of not answering the question when I tell you that the choice is not either/or.
Click to expand...
This is what you do Atpollard....
you discuss the discussion instead of the topic.
I wonder why you do this.
I send you a whole page of logical and biblical information and you do not reply when it does not suit you.
I wonder why you do this.

What JLB asked you is very simple to answer.

Q. Must a person first be saved before they can believe?

A. No.


Why?
Because, as you yourself have stated....men cannot believe because they are unable to.
So,,,,if they cannot believe..HOW CAN THEY BE SAVED?

A person comes to BELIEVE in God/Jesus....
and THEN they are saved.

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. "

Jesus Himself said the above.
Now...forget catechisms and all you've learned from the mouths of men....

Jesus said:

GOD LOVED THE WORLD SO MUCH
THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON
THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM
SHALL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

1. First comes belief.
2. Then comes salvation.


A person that is searching for God....
comes to BELIEVE IN GOD....
This belief causes him TO BE SAVED.

The jailer in Acts 16:30-31 clearly asked:
WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED?

Paul,,,whom I think knew the answer replied:
BELIEVE IN JESUS
AND YOU WILL BE SAVED.

1. BELIEVE IN JESUS
2. YOU WILL BE SAVED


Does Luther know more than Paul did ?
Does ANY catechism know more than God's word?
Does ANY MAN know more than JESUS DID?

I know that you believe John 3:16 is referring to those already saved by God's choice, IOW,,,it is a statement instead of an instruction.
WHERE DOES IT STATE THIS IN THAT VERSE???........ Except in man's opinion...and a man that was born 1,500 years AFTER JESUS DIED.

Who do YOU prefer to believe?


(caps for emphasis).
 
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atpollard said:
I did not answer with a “simple yes or no” because SAVED is too complex of a word to come BEFORE OR AFTER belief. Saved extends from God’s relationship with us before we were born until God’s relationship with us in eternal glorification. SAVED comes BOTH before and after BELIEVED.

So in a sense, it was a “trick question” that you were asking.
You simply chose hear only the “NO” that you wanted to hear.

The Catechism did present the truthful answer, you just chose to reject it because it was a Catechism rather than the “Yes” or “No” that you had prejudged to be the only choices. My personal detailed answer also explained why it was not a simple ”before/after” relationship and you chose to see only the “No.”

You have defined a false either/or choice and accuse me of not answering the question when I tell you that the choice is not either/or.
Click to expand...

If we cannot know the answer because it is so complex,,,,
then how can we know the truth?

Jesus said we would know the truth and the truth would set us free.
John 8:32

If we can't know the truth...
HOW can we be set free??

God's word is so simple to understand that even the unlearned understand it.
 
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Reactions: JLB
wondering said:
This is what you do Atpollard....
you discuss the discussion instead of the topic.
I wonder why you do this.
I send you a whole page of logical and biblical information and you do not reply when it does not suit you.
I wonder why you do this.

What JLB asked you is very simple to answer.

Q. Must a person first be saved before they can believe?

A. No.


Why?
Because, as you yourself have stated....men cannot believe because they are unable to.
So,,,,if they cannot believe..HOW CAN THEY BE SAVED?

A person comes to BELIEVE in God/Jesus....
and THEN they are saved.

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. "

Jesus Himself said the above.
Now...forget catechisms and all you've learned from the mouths of men....

Jesus said:

GOD LOVED THE WORLD SO MUCH
THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON
THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM
SHALL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

1. First comes belief.
2. Then comes salvation.


A person that is searching for God....
comes to BELIEVE IN GOD....
This belief causes him TO BE SAVED.

The jailer in Acts 16:30-31 clearly asked:
WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED?

Paul,,,whom I think knew the answer replied:
BELIEVE IN JESUS
AND YOU WILL BE SAVED.

1. BELIEVE IN JESUS
2. YOU WILL BE SAVED


Does Luther know more than Paul did ?
Does ANY catechism know more than God's word?
Does ANY MAN know more than JESUS DID?

I know that you believe John 3:16 is referring to those already saved by God's choice, IOW,,,it is a statement instead of an instruction.
WHERE DOES IT STATE THIS IN THAT VERSE???........ Except in man's opinion...and a man that was born 1,500 years AFTER JESUS DIED.

Who do YOU prefer to believe?


(caps for emphasis).
Click to expand...
... because the “saved” were chosen ”before the foundation of the world”, so “saved” is not as simple an event as you portray it with a few selective verses.
 
atpollard said:
... because the “saved” were chosen ”before the foundation of the world”, so “saved” is not as simple an event as you portray it with a few selective verses.
Click to expand...
The saved were not chosen before the foundation of the world.
Please show me a scripture that states this.

Romans 8:28-30
28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

God causes all things to work together for good to those who love Him and are called to serve Him according to His purpose. God has a purpose for all of us that and He calls us to that service...ONLY those that love Him.

Because...
those that he FOREKNEW...
God foreknew who would come to accept Him and be saved.
God knows all.

Those that He foreknew would become saved...
HE PREDESTINED to become conformed to the image of His Son.
Jesus is the first in a line of many.
1 Corinthians 15:49

Those who are PREDESTINED TO BECOME LIKE THE SON,,,
God calls according to His will for them.

These are also justified.
These will also be glorified.


Perhaps,,,you could explain the above as you understand it.
Perhaps you could explain Ephesians 1:4 as you understand it.

God predestined HOW we would be saved...
NOT WHO would be saved.
 
atpollard said:
Please reread my post.
I said it was too complex for a simple “YES” or “NO” answer.
Click to expand...
It's not complex.
It's only complex when man puts his understanding to the simple word of God that it becomes complex.

God revealed Himself from the beginning of time.
Man is without excuse as he was able to choose God or not.
Romans 1:19 tells us that man has always been able to know God from what He has made....and it tells us that God made it evident to man.

Why would God make it evident to man...
if it is HE who chooses who will be saved and who will not?

God is logical.....
the reason of the reformed is not logical.

Romans 1:21 says that EVEN THOUGH THEY KNEW GOD...
They did not honor Him as God or give thanks.
Therefore God "gave them over".....

Why would God "give them over" if it was HE that made them such?

God gave them over....
judicial hardening....
or
If this is how you want it..
then this is how it'll be.

But man took the action FIRST,,,,
God hardened SECONDLY.
 
atpollard said:
... because the “saved” were chosen ”before the foundation of the world”, so “saved” is not as simple an event as you portray it with a few selective verses.
Click to expand...


Awesome.

Please share the scriptures that teach this.



JLB
 
atpollard said:
... because the “saved” were chosen ”before the foundation of the world”, so “saved” is not as simple an event as you portray it with a few selective verses.
Click to expand...


Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6


  • just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love


He chose those who are in Christ to be holy and blameless before Him in love.

Certainly nothing here about being chosen for salvation.

How does one come to be “in Christ”?





JLB
 
JLB said:
I think you can see, I point people to the scriptures, and what the scriptures say, and desire people to dig in and study the scriptures for themselves.

I also emphasize the use of biblical words and terms, rather than using extra biblical words to establish doctrine.

Why not prove your doctrine from the scriptures using the words of the Bible, and what they mean.

Why not be straightforward in our discussion when a person is sincerely asking a question.

Again, this is my goal, to have a good discussion where anyone can join in and contribute, from the scriptures, not from the commentary of their favorite bible teacher.

The body of Christ is divided over many doctrines.

This should not be.

Divisions come from following the teachings of man, rather than the teachings of Christ in the New Testament.

Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 1 Corinthians 1:10-13

If the doctrine you believe is biblical, then why the great need to use commentaries and quotes from catechisms?

Why such the push back on wanting to use scripture, and biblical words in our posts?

I just don’t think this is too much to ask.

JLB
Click to expand...
 
OzSpen said:
JLB,

Scriptures are used to back up Arminian teaching. Here are a few examples: FACTS of salvation.

Oz
Click to expand...
Hi Oz,

I don't know too much about Arminianism but I do think I agree with that more than TULIP which, for me, is totally incorrect from the T to the P.

However, I do find the linked article rather confusing.

I like this better: (although there's much less info).

The five points of Arminianism (from Jacobus Arminius 1559-1609) are in contrast to the five points of Calvinism. The Arminian five points are

  • Human Free Will--This states that though man is fallen, he is not incapacitated by the sinful nature and can freely choose God. His will is not restricted and enslaved by his sinful nature.
  • Conditional Election--God chose people for salvation based on His foreknowledge where God looks into the future to see who would respond to the gospel message.
  • Universal Atonement--The position that Jesus bore the sin of everyone who ever lived.
  • Resistable Grace--The teaching that the grace of God can be resisted and finally beaten so as to reject salvation in Christ.
  • Fall from Grace--The Teaching that a person can fall from grace and lose his salvation.

source: https://carm.org/dictionary-five-points-arminianism
 
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