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Fate... Free Will vs Predestination

JLB said:
I guess my question would be: Where does the idea come from that a person must first be saved in order to believe? :confused
JLB
​
Click to expand...
​
JLB,

Have you checked what the Calvinists say about regeneration prior to faith?

Calvinist, R. C. Sproul wrote:

“In regeneration, God changes our hearts. He gives us a new disposition, a new inclination. He plants a desire for Christ in our hearts. We can never trust Christ for our salvation unless we first desire him. This is why we said earlier that regeneration precedes faith (1986:118, emphasis in original).​

Norman Geisler, who called himself, a moderate Calvinist (1999:129), stated that
Contrary to the claims of extreme Calvinists, there are no verses properly understood that teach regeneration is prior to faith. Instead, it is the uniform pattern of Scripture to place faith logically prior to salvation as a condition for receiving it (1999:228).
Click to expand...

To support his position, Geisler examined Romans 5:1;Luke 13:3; 2 Peter 3:9; John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Romans 3:24-25; John 3:6-7; and Titus 3:5-7 (1999:228-230), to demonstrate that faith is prior to regeneration.

Oz

Works consulted
Geisler, N 1999. Chosen but free. Minneapolis, Minnesota: Bethany House Publishers.
Sproul, R C 1986. Chosen by God. Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House Publishers.
 
for_his_glory said:
You are an English speaking human being and should know that one word is like various other words that means the same as the original that is given.
You, I, me, man, woman all equals that of what the word "you" means.

This nit picking over words is getting out of hand just to prove ones opinion and needs to stop. Do we pick one particular Bible and throw the rest away because it uses a different word than the one we use?

Let's get back to the topic of the OP as we have strayed off into another conversation. Please fill free to start another thread on this topic of words.
Click to expand...

FHG,

From my understanding of Scripture, the idea of ‘fate’ is not a biblical doctrine. However, the teaching on God’s sovereignty of the universe is core Christian teaching as the following verses demonstrate:
  • In the parable of the labourers in the vineyard, Jesus said: ‘Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’ (Matt 20:15 ESV).
  • To the Romans, Paul wrote: ‘But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?’ (Rom 9:20-21 ESV)
  • Could anything be clearer than Eph 1:11 (ESV)? ‘In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will’.
  • This verse from the OT makes it clear that not fate, but God’s sovereignty, rules the universe: ‘Yours, O Lord, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the victory and the majesty, for all that is in the heavens and in the earth is yours. Yours is the kingdom, O Lord, and you are exalted as head above all’ (1 Chronicles 29:11).
See my article: Belief in fate is false doctrine

Oz
 
atpollard said:
Ephesians 2.
(Although you are misrepresenting the event).
Click to expand...


Again, my question is...

Where does the idea come from that a person must first be saved in order to believe?


This is what one Calvinist claimed.

In order to believe, first the person must be born again, saved, regenerated.


Is that what you believe?

That a person is first saved, then they can believe the Gospel?



JLB
 
OzSpen said:
​
JLB,

Have you checked what the Calvinists say about regeneration prior to faith?

Calvinist, R. C. Sproul wrote:

“In regeneration, God changes our hearts. He gives us a new disposition, a new inclination. He plants a desire for Christ in our hearts. We can never trust Christ for our salvation unless we first desire him. This is why we said earlier that regeneration precedes faith (1986:118, emphasis in original).​

Norman Geisler, who called himself, a moderate Calvinist (1999:129), stated that


To support his position, Geisler examined Romans 5:1;Luke 13:3; 2 Peter 3:9; John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Romans 3:24-25; John 3:6-7; and Titus 3:5-7 (1999:228-230), to demonstrate that faith is prior to regeneration.

Oz

Works consulted
Geisler, N 1999. Chosen but free. Minneapolis, Minnesota: Bethany House Publishers.
Sproul, R C 1986. Chosen by God. Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House Publishers.
Click to expand...


To answer your question, no.

I don’t study what Calvinist’s believe.

They seem to believe differently, from one person to the next, based on what I have discussed with them.


If we understand faith, then we understand that faith comes to us when we hear God speak to us, whether directly as in the case of Hebrews 11, or indirectly through a prophet or one sent to preach the Gospel, as in Romans 10:8-17


That being said, I agree, faith comes first, then when a person believes what they hear, that results in obeying what they hear, they are saved.


Without believing, their faith they received from hearing the Gospel is dead, and can not save.

Jesus illustrated this point in the parable of the sower.


Here is the order of salvation, according to the scriptures:


Hear the Gospel and receive faith.
(At this point the person who has heard the Gospel, now has faith)

Believe the Gospel, that results in obeying the Gospel, which results in salvation.


For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10




JLB
 
OzSpen said:
FHG,

From my understanding of Scripture, the idea of ‘fate’ is not a biblical doctrine. However, the teaching on God’s sovereignty of the universe is core Christian teaching as the following verses demonstrate:
  • In the parable of the labourers in the vineyard, Jesus said: ‘Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’ (Matt 20:15 ESV).
  • To the Romans, Paul wrote: ‘But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?’ (Rom 9:20-21 ESV)
  • Could anything be clearer than Eph 1:11 (ESV)? ‘In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will’.
  • This verse from the OT makes it clear that not fate, but God’s sovereignty, rules the universe: ‘Yours, O Lord, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the victory and the majesty, for all that is in the heavens and in the earth is yours. Yours is the kingdom, O Lord, and you are exalted as head above all’ (1 Chronicles 29:11).
See my article: Belief in fate is false doctrine

Oz
Click to expand...

The ESV version is a widely known Calvinist slanted version of the Bible.


The King James is not.


Can you define for us the word sovereignty from the Bible using the Strongs Concordance, so we know what you mean by this word sovereignty.

Or what Sovereign means.



JLB
 
JLB said:
Is that what you believe?
Click to expand...
Here is what I believe:

Question 29: How are we made partakers of the redemption purchased by Christ?
Answer: We are made partakers of the redemption purchased by Christ, by the effectual application of it to us by his Holy Spirit.

Question 30: How doth the Spirit apply to us the redemption purchased by Christ?
Answer: The Spirit applieth to us the redemption purchased by Christ, by working faith in us, and thereby uniting us to Christ in our effectual calling.

Question 31: What is effectual calling?
Answer: Effectual calling is the work of God's Spirit, whereby, convincing us of our sin and misery, enlightening our minds in the knowledge of Christ, and renewing our wills, he doth persuade and enable us to embrace Jesus Christ, freely offered to us in the gospel.

Question 32: What benefits do they that are effectually called partake of in this life?
Answer: They that are effectually called do in this life partake of justification, adoption, and sanctification, and the several benefits which in this life do either accompany or flow from them.

(from the Shorter Westminster Catechism)
 
JLB said:
The ESV version is a widely known Calvinist slanted version of the Bible.

The King James is not.

Can you define for us the word sovereignty from the Bible using the Strongs Concordance, so we know what you mean by this word sovereignty.

Or what Sovereign means.



JLB
Click to expand...

JLB,

I've already biblically defined God's sovereignty in #162.

Your opinion is:
​
The ESV version is a widely known Calvinist slanted version of the Bible.​
​
The King James is not.​

You gave not one example to support these 2 assertions. Therefore, I'm left to conclude this is JLB's opinion - until you come up with the evidence to prove your statements.

Oz
 
JLB said:
I don’t study what Calvinist’s believe.

They seem to believe differently, from one person to the next, based on what I have discussed with them.

JLB
Click to expand...

JLB,

I'm shocked to know that you don't want to understand the enemy and his/her tactics before you engage in 'warfare'.

While there are variations among Calvinists (and Arminians), most Calvinists I know are followers of TULIP theology as a summary of their faith.

Oz
 
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atpollard said:
Here is what I believe:

Question 29: How are we made partakers of the redemption purchased by Christ?
Answer: We are made partakers of the redemption purchased by Christ, by the effectual application of it to us by his Holy Spirit.

Question 30: How doth the Spirit apply to us the redemption purchased by Christ?
Answer: The Spirit applieth to us the redemption purchased by Christ, by working faith in us, and thereby uniting us to Christ in our effectual calling.

Question 31: What is effectual calling?
Answer: Effectual calling is the work of God's Spirit, whereby, convincing us of our sin and misery, enlightening our minds in the knowledge of Christ, and renewing our wills, he doth persuade and enable us to embrace Jesus Christ, freely offered to us in the gospel.

Question 32: What benefits do they that are effectually called partake of in this life?
Answer: They that are effectually called do in this life partake of justification, adoption, and sanctification, and the several benefits which in this life do either accompany or flow from them.

(from the Shorter Westminster Catechism)
Click to expand...

atp,

This website provides the Scriptural basis for each of these points and for other points of the Westminster Shorter Catechism: http://faithparispca.org/Confession...rtakers of the redemption purchased by Christ

Oz
 
OzSpen said:
FHG,

From my understanding of Scripture, the idea of ‘fate’ is not a biblical doctrine. However, the teaching on God’s sovereignty of the universe is core Christian teaching as the following verses demonstrate:
  • In the parable of the labourers in the vineyard, Jesus said: ‘Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’ (Matt 20:15 ESV).
  • To the Romans, Paul wrote: ‘But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?’ (Rom 9:20-21 ESV)
  • Could anything be clearer than Eph 1:11 (ESV)? ‘In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will’.
  • This verse from the OT makes it clear that not fate, but God’s sovereignty, rules the universe: ‘Yours, O Lord, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the victory and the majesty, for all that is in the heavens and in the earth is yours. Yours is the kingdom, O Lord, and you are exalted as head above all’ (1 Chronicles 29:11).
See my article: Belief in fate is false doctrine

Oz
Click to expand...

I agree as I don't believe fate is biblical doctrine as we are predestined to be Holy and acceptable to God for adoption to sonship through Christ Jesus according to the good pleasure of his will, Ephesians 1:5; Romans 8:28-30. Sonship belongs to all who by faith that believe in Christ are part of the inheritance of God.

Like I've been saying, God predestined the plan of salvation through Christ, not that man.
 
atpollard said:
Here is what I believe:

Question 29: How are we made partakers of the redemption purchased by Christ?
Answer: We are made partakers of the redemption purchased by Christ, by the effectual application of it to us by his Holy Spirit.

Question 30: How doth the Spirit apply to us the redemption purchased by Christ?
Answer: The Spirit applieth to us the redemption purchased by Christ, by working faith in us, and thereby uniting us to Christ in our effectual calling.

Question 31: What is effectual calling?
Answer: Effectual calling is the work of God's Spirit, whereby, convincing us of our sin and misery, enlightening our minds in the knowledge of Christ, and renewing our wills, he doth persuade and enable us to embrace Jesus Christ, freely offered to us in the gospel.

Question 32: What benefits do they that are effectually called partake of in this life?
Answer: They that are effectually called do in this life partake of justification, adoption, and sanctification, and the several benefits which in this life do either accompany or flow from them.

(from the Shorter Westminster Catechism)
Click to expand...


Brother, I’m not going to discuss some “Catechism” or “Commentary” from other men’s opinion.


I asked you if you believe a person must first be saved; born again, regenerated in order for them to believe the Gospel.


It’s a yes or no answer.


This is what another person on this Forum was teaching.

Is this what you believe.

Let’s please use scripture, and do our best to answer honestly and straight forward from the scriptures, using words and terms from the Bible that we can define and understand.


I have asked that links and references not be used in these discussions, so we all can have a common understanding, and a fruitful discussion that benefits each other, adding to our knowledge and understanding that comes from Christ; the truth.


  • Here is a reminder from the Terms and Conditions —

Studying to show ourselves approved by God, means we are seeking to be taught from the scriptures, the truth, by the Spirit of truth. For that reason I would ask that no commentary or links to other websites or teachers be used, but that we would all use scripture in our posts and discussions.

The Theological Discussion Group is for those who desire to please God, and submit to the Lord Jesus to teach and discuss God's word, to grow and learn from each other's study, which may mean these discussions become heated. Nevertheless we are starting with Soteriology, the study of salvation, which seems to be the most popular, yet the most hotly debated subject on this Forum. Therefore we will discuss the meat of this subject in this sub forum away from the eyes of the General Forum.

Please agree to godly discussion, using patience and scripture, desiring that we reach a degree of unity about this controversial subject. In time I will add other subjects for discussion.




JLB
 
OzSpen said:
JLB,

I'm shocked to know that you don't want to understand the enemy and his/her tactics before you engage in 'warfare'.
Click to expand...


I’m engaging people one on one to know what that person believes and if they would like to discuss the topic of each thread from the scriptures.


I will have several other main topics in this forum to go along with “Soteriology”.

I wanted to keep each section “clean” in discussion of each parent topic and subsequent thread topics, especially concerning salvation. Free from the clutter of the teachings of man.


I will try start a new parent topic every couple of weeks.


One of them will be called “False Teachings and Heresies”.


Here are the titles to some of the others:


THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST:
  • Who He is
  • What He taught

THE COMING OF THE LORD:
  • Resurrection
  • Rapture
  • Destruction of the ungodly


THE PATHS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS: Sowing to the Spirit


THE LAW OF MOSES AND THE NEW COVENANT


PRAYER, FASTING AND WORSHIP: Private Devotion


UNDERSTANDING AND DEFINING BIBLICAL WORDS AND TERMS


FALSE TEACHINGS, HERESY


SHADOWS, TYPES, AND PARABLES


ANGELS, DEMONS AND DELIVERANCE





JLB
 
OzSpen said:
JLB,

I'm shocked to know that you don't want to understand the enemy and his/her tactics before you engage in 'warfare'.

While there are variations among Calvinists (and Arminians), most Calvinists I know are followers of TULIP theology as a summary of their faith.

Oz
Click to expand...


So far from what I have seen, Calvinist’s seem have their own set of extra biblical words and terms to define their theology.


I started the Topic Biblical words and terms, so we can all have and agree upon key words and terms that provide the core for our common belief. The unity of the faith.


Doctrine consists of words. Change or add a word and you change the meaning of the doctrine.


The Enemy understands this very well.



JLB
 
OzSpen said:
JLB,

I'm shocked to know that you don't want to understand the enemy and his/her tactics before you engage in 'warfare'.

While there are variations among Calvinists (and Arminians), most Calvinists I know are followers of TULIP theology as a summary of their faith.

Oz
Click to expand...

I wanted this Theological Study Group to be a safe place where those who join CF.net can come to learn key doctrines about
“The Faith”: our common faith in Christ Jesus.

Many do not go to a local church because they want to hear the truth. Many churches and denominations are compromised, seeking to have “seeker friendly” social clubs, filled with good tithers.


Jesus Christ is the Truth.

His Doctrine is the solid foundation we are called to build our lives upon.


“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.” Luke 6:46-49


Amen.




JLB
 
atpollard said:
Ephesians 2
(although “saved in order to believe” is still a bad choice of words.)
Click to expand...


From your perspective, what comes first, salvation or believing the Gospel message?


I’m trying to word it in a way you agree with.



JLB
 
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