Fate... Free Will vs Predestination

[JLB]

Thus God chose US before we were born to be saved in Christ.

You almost made it without interjecting your preconceived, predetermined doctrine from Calvinism into the text.

He chose us “in Him” to be holy and without blame.

The text doesn’t say He chose us to be saved.

You injected that into the scripture.

 

[OzSpen]

You almost made it without interjecting your preconceived, predetermined doctrine from Calvinism into the text.

He chose us “in Him” to be holy and without blame.

The text doesn’t say He chose us to be saved.

You injected that into the scripture.

How can we be holy & without blame without being saved?

 

[atpollard]

Please post to the scripture you are referring to.

Sure, you said ...

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6

• just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love

He chose those who are in Christ to be holy and blameless before Him in love.

Certainly nothing here about being chosen for salvation.

How does one come to be “in Christ”?
JLB

I cannot understand how one can be “in Christ” and be “unsaved” at the same time. Yet you insist that this is not only possible, but normal since you claim that when scripture says that “He chose us in Him”, we are not chosen to be “saved” ... therefore you claim we are chosen to be “unsaved in Him”.

I do not understand how that is even POSSIBLE, let alone Scriptural. So I asked.

 

[atpollard]

I'm not discussing WHEN....I said from the beginning of the world, or before the beginning of the world.

I am confused.
You specifically requested (more like demanded) that I exegete a verse, and then you are still unhappy when I provide the exegesis you requested.

How could the Lord wish for all to come to repentance if He, being God, knows who will be saved ? How could the above statement make any sense at all?

I have probably explained it before, and would be willing to answer the question again, but it is off-topic for this discussion. Please feel free to start a new topic on 2 Peter 3 if you really want to discuss it.

 

[atpollard]

Jesus gave Himself as a ransom FOR ALL
1 Timothy 2:6
Not universalism...but FOR ALL that would believe in Him.

... be careful, JLB is getting sensitive about adding words that are not in the verse. ?

 

[atpollard]

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.... is clear.

Just as a point of information, when Paul wrote that letter to Timothy, “ALL SCRIPTURE” was the Old Testament.

 

[atpollard]

You almost made it without interjecting your preconceived, predetermined doctrine from Calvinism into the text.

He chose us “in Him” to be holy and without blame.

The text doesn’t say He chose us to be saved.

You injected that into the scripture.

So we are chosen to be “in Him” and “holy” and “without blame” ... but UNSAVED as we are “in Him, Holy and without blame”? [You are talking like a crazy person.]

 

[JLB]

How can we be holy & without blame without being saved?

We must be “in Him” to be holy and without blame.


God isn’t going to choose someone who isn’t “in Christ”, to be holy and without blame.

I cannot understand how one can be “in Christ” and be “unsaved” at the same time.

I can’t either.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Just as a point of information, when Paul wrote that letter to Timothy, “ALL SCRIPTURE” was the Old Testament.

What’s your point.


JLB

 

[atpollard]

What’s your point.
JLB

None, other than a simple statement of fact.

 

[JLB]

So we are chosen to be “in Him” and “holy” and “without blame” ... but UNSAVED as we are “in Him, Holy and without blame”? [You are talking like a crazy person.]

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love. Ephesians 1:4


God foreknew who would chose to believe and repent, therefore come to be in Christ; it was those He chose to be holy and without blame.


JLB

 

[atpollard]

God foreknew who would chose to believe and repent, therefore come to be in Christ; it was those He chose to be holy and without blame.

Now who is interjecting his preconceived, predetermined doctrine into the text?
It says GOD CHOSE US [Ephesians 1:4].

(“Foreknew” is always relational with God. God foreknows people, not facts as the word is used in scripture).

• [Rom 8:29 NASB] 29 For those whom He foreknew,[G4267] He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
• [Rom 11:2 NASB] 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.[G4267] Or do you not know what the Scripture says in [the passage about] Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
• [1Pe 1:20 NASB] 20 For He was foreknown[G4267] before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you

People foreknow facts:

• [Act 26:5 NASB] 5 since they have known[G4267] about me for a long time, if they are willing to testify, that I lived [as] a Pharisee according to the strictest sect of our religion.
• [2Pe 3:17 NASB] 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing[G4267] this beforehand,[G4267] be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,

 

[GodsGrace]

I am confused.
You specifically requested (more like demanded) that I exegete a verse, and then you are still unhappy when I provide the exegesis you requested.

I'm not god. I don't demand.
I don't have to be happy with your exegesis....
I'm allowed to disagree with it... which I did.

YOU brought up the question of WHEN God planned...
I said I did NOT question WHEN but HOW God planned to save.

Once again, we're discussing our discussion instead of the topic.
Do you find difficulty in discussing topics with me?
Do you have difficulty countering my understanding of verses?
I think so or you would stick to the topic at hand.
PLEASE stick to the topic and do not become personal with your replies.

I have probably explained it before, and would be willing to answer the question again, but it is off-topic for this discussion. Please feel free to start a new topic on 2 Peter 3 if you really want to discuss it.

I quoted 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 to support my belief that God wants to save all, if it were possible within His plan....why should I start a new thread for 2 Peter? We cannot start a new topic for every verse we use...if you think I used it incorrectly then that is what you should state and give the reason why.

I could also refer to John 12:32 when Jesus says that if He is lifted up He will draw ALL MEN to Himself.

This is a running theme in the N.T. writings. It cannot be ignored.
(God wishes ALL to be saved).

God desires all men to be saved....
It is our free will that allows us to accept His invitation or not.

2 Peter 3:9 states that God is waiting for many more to be saved because He desires that all would be saved. It fits perfectly with my belief. He is putting off the end of the world so that even more can be saved...IF they so wish. This shows how we have the free will to choose to be saved and God is waiting for a maximum number (which we do not know).

 

[GodsGrace]

... be careful, JLB is getting sensitive about adding words that are not in the verse. ?

Yes.
But remember,,,adding words is different than explaining what you believe the verse means.
JLB is very knowledgeable, as are you....

 

[GodsGrace]

So we are chosen to be “in Him” and “holy” and “without blame” ... but UNSAVED as we are “in Him, Holy and without blame”? [You are talking like a crazy person.]

A,
Just saw the above.
JLB never said one could be IN CHRIST and UNSAVED at the same time.

This is impossible and we all know it.

 

[OzSpen]

... be careful, JLB is getting sensitive about adding words that are not in the verse. ?

atp,

Try translating 1 Tim 2:6 without adding words:

1 Timothy 2:6 Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament (MOUNCE)
6 who ho gave didōmi himself heautou as a ransom antilytron for hyper all pas, the ho witness martyrion at the proper idios time kairos.

Oz

 

[JLB]

Now who is interjecting his preconceived, predetermined doctrine into the text?
It says GOD CHOSE US [Ephesians 1:4].

(“Foreknew” is always relational with God. God foreknows people, not facts as the word is used in scripture).

• [Rom 8:29 NASB] 29 For those whom He foreknew,[G4267] He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
• [Rom 11:2 NASB] 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.[G4267] Or do you not know what the Scripture says in [the passage about] Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
• [1Pe 1:20 NASB] 20 For He was foreknown[G4267] before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you

People foreknow facts:

• [Act 26:5 NASB] 5 since they have known[G4267] about me for a long time, if they are willing to testify, that I lived [as] a Pharisee according to the strictest sect of our religion.
• [2Pe 3:17 NASB] 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing[G4267] this beforehand,[G4267] be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,

You are trying to force the idea that if a person is predestined because of God’s foreknowledge, he somehow has no choice if he is saved or not; has no ability to choose to either obey the Lord or fall away.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:28-29


All 12 disciples were destined to reign and rule with Christ.

• you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Jesus goes on to say that EVERYONE who makes the choice to leave houses or family to follow Him, will inherit eternal life.



For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


This verse does not say....


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that those predestined to be saved should not perish but have everlasting life. Calvinism 3:16



JLB

 

[JLB]

Robertson was one of the finest NT Greek scholars of the 20th century. He shows that 'handling aright' means cutting straight, ploughing a straight furrow, cutting straight the rough camel-hair cloth of Paul the tent-maker. Using that metaphor. Robertson applied this to 'crooked' exegesis that needs to be carefully cut straight (to agree with Scripture).

Here is what I said about rightly dividing —


It doesn’t mean you are to “explain” the scriptures, but to be straightforward with the scriptures, when you teach from them.


How is what I said “to be straightforward with the scriptures”,
So different that “cutting straight”, or “plowing straight”?





JLB

 

[JLB]

Who is Parry?

You tell me.

I got the name from your post.


From your post —


Theodoret explains it to mean ploughing a straight furrow. Parry argues that the metaphor is the stone mason cutting the stones...




JLB

 

[JLB]

JLB,

Scriptures are used to back up Arminian teaching. Here are a few examples: FACTS of salvation.

Oz

Are you Arminian or Calvinist?



JLB