Fate... Free Will vs Predestination

[atpollard]

So you disagree that Judas was predestined to reign with and the other 11, even though the Lord said specifically “you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones”.

Wasn’t Jesus speaking to the 12 Apostles?

[John 6:69-71 NASB] 69 "We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God." 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and [yet] one of you is a devil?" 71 Now He meant Judas [the son] of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.

[John 17:12 NASB] 12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

 

[JLB]

[John 6:69-71 NASB] 69 "We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God." 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and [yet] one of you is a devil?" 71 Now He meant Judas [the son] of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him

Jesus said the same thing to Peter.


But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:23


Was Judas a demon or a human who was opposing Jesus?


Devil - Strongs 1228 - diabolos

1. prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely
   1. a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,
2. metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him

None of this, conflicts with the destiny that God had predetermined for the 12 Apostles.





JLB

 

[PeterJens]

This is a topic that I could never comprehend and I suspect humans don't have the capacity to fully understand it.
I've listened to different people and theologians give their opinions and theories but none of them sound convincing.

Let's start by defining the truths.
1/ The bible teaches us that we have free will. (the extent of that is probably debatable)
2/ God is omniscient. He knows what we are going to do. (the extent of that is debatable i think)
3/ Many bible verses confirm predestination (the extent of that is also debatable I think)

So how can we have free will when God has a predestined path for us and knows what we are going to do?

Let's say I have 20 options what I will eat for dinner. It feels like I have free will.
But God already knew I would eat the T bone steak before I even started to think about it.
Or did he only know when I had decided to eat the T bone?

I recall Jesus predicting Peters 3 denials when Peter hadn't even thought of it yet. So it seems God knows before we even consider it.

What exactly is predestined? Is it our fate after death? Is it every little think we say, eat and do? Or somewhere in between?

A quick look and I noticed there are a wide range of theories on this and many theologians who have attempted to crack the puzzle.

So what do u think? Do u have a theory on how God's omniscience can combine with free will and predestination?

Or do u give up like me and just say
"God. Your glory and wonder is beyond the capability of my mind to comprehend. And so i leave my faith in You Lord"

The confusion comes from one idea, the possible. If you give free will you stop the outcomes to what can be chosen.

There is within this a sense of fate. Pharaoh was never going to give in, but the Lord could make the rebellion greater. Hardness of heart is the block, once set seems unmovable.

I have discussed love with believers who where hard as iron, and they simply could not understand the need for an open cleansed heart. For me this said everything. To find the gate and path is difficult, because we so easily are sure we are right, without making sure we are not in denial.

Brokeness comes first, to know we are sinners beyond self justification. We all posses the capability of the worst crimes possible.

 

[JLB]

[John 6:69-71 NASB] 69 "We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God." 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and [yet] one of you is a devil?" 71 Now He meant Judas [the son] of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.

[John 17:12 NASB] 12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

Peter returned to the Lord and was reconciled and restored, and fulfilled his destiny.


Judas hung himself and was lost.




JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

Not with how I define “free will”, but with how some people define “free will”. There are also some people who define “Predestination” as “mindless robotic enslavement” but that is their problem and not mine. Scripture defines Predestination by the original Greek word chosen and the surrounding scriptural context. “Free will”, as an exact expression, only appears once in Scripture ... speaking of the free will of Philemon for Onesimus and not of the relationship God and man ... leaving more room for individual personal interpretation.

Actually the word freewill goes back to the original Hebrew word רצון חופשי - noun - the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. In English described as free, desire, independence, volition, liberty, freedom, accord, choice, will, wish and discretion. We have to remember the Tanakh (OT) was written in Hebrew and Aramaic.

 

[GodsGrace]

You CAN eat anything you are physically ably to get your hands on for dinner. (You cannot eat Pufferfish and Truffles if you have no access to them).

What you WILL eat for supper is decided by external circumstances and your desires. (If you want a broiled steak, but the broiler is broken, then you have to choose something else that you want).

[Proverbs 21:1 NASB] 1 The king's heart is [like] channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes.

??
In your belief system....if you agree with the reformation teachings...
you can eat whatever you want to...
as long as God has predestined you to eat it.

In which case, you have NO free will.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not with how I define “free will”, but with how some people define “free will”. There are also some people who define “Predestination” as “mindless robotic enslavement” but that is their problem and not mine. Scripture defines Predestination by the original Greek word chosen and the surrounding scriptural context. “Free will”, as an exact expression, only appears once in Scripture ... speaking of the free will of Philemon for Onesimus and not of the relationship God and man ... leaving more room for individual personal interpretation.

We are indeed chosen....
IF we adhere to the conditions God has set for one that WISHES to be chosen.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is a topic that I could never comprehend and I suspect humans don't have the capacity to fully understand it.
I've listened to different people and theologians give their opinions and theories but none of them sound convincing.

Let's start by defining the truths.
1/ The bible teaches us that we have free will. (the extent of that is probably debatable)
2/ God is omniscient. He knows what we are going to do. (the extent of that is debatable i think)
3/ Many bible verses confirm predestination (the extent of that is also debatable I think)

1. The bible indeed teaches that we have free will.
Beginning in the O.T. with, for example, Deuteronomy 30:19 where we are told to CHOOSE LIFE.

Choosing implies free will.
I cannot choose, if I don't have free will.
The extent could be debated...

2. God is omniscient. He knows all. This is not debatable.

3. Many bible verses confirm predestination. There are two types of predestination...

A. God has destined all to be lost unless they meet His requirements due to man's fallen state. This is also the predestination that Augustine taught (400 AD)..No sliver of predestination was taught BEFORE Him and he never taught double predestination -- what is taught today.

B. The predestination spoken of in the bible speaks to WHAT God has predestined....not WHO God has predestined.

It would take a God we are not familiar with to save some persons and allow others to go to eternal damnation through no fault of their own but based solely on His wishes.

Please read the following and tell me what is predestined...
it's a favorite verse of the reformed (calvinists):

Romans 8:28-30
28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

So how can we have free will when God has a predestined path for us and knows what we are going to do?

Let's say I have 20 options what I will eat for dinner. It feels like I have free will.
But God already knew I would eat the T bone steak before I even started to think about it.
Or did he only know when I had decided to eat the T bone?

God knew you would eat the steak.
WIP explained this well....
Because God knows something does not mean He causes it to happen.

Your little son hates being told to go to bed and complains every night. You know he will complain. You tell him to go to bed. He complains. Did YOU make him complain? The only predestined thing going on here is that bedtime had to come.

I recall Jesus predicting Peters 3 denials when Peter hadn't even thought of it yet. So it seems God knows before we even consider it.

:yes

What exactly is predestined? Is it our fate after death? Is it every little think we say, eat and do? Or somewhere in between?

God predestined how the world would work....the scientific laws, etc.
God predestined a way of salvation for us.
God predestined how we would spend eternity.
If God predestined every little thing we eat and do...would we be human or would we be little robots?
Would GOD be happy having the love of little robots? NO!!
God did predestine some of what some people would do...this could be discussed later on if you wish.

A quick look and I noticed there are a wide range of theories on this and many theologians who have attempted to crack the puzzle.

So what do u think? Do u have a theory on how God's omniscience can combine with free will and predestination?

Or do u give up like me and just say
"God. Your glory and wonder is beyond the capability of my mind to comprehend. And so i leave my faith in You Lord"

You're right. Our mind cannot comprehend everything. If we understood God..we would be a God.

We have free will......
but in the end all will work out the way God wants it to by working our mistakes to His desire.

Genesis 50:20

Joseph could have died in the well.
God took his brother's evil act, and worked it for good.

 

[atpollard]

None of this, conflicts with the destiny that God had predetermined for the 12 Apostles.

[John 6:69-71 NASB] 69 "We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God." 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and [yet] one of you is a devil?" 71 Now He meant Judas [the son] of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.

• “one of you is a devil?" Now He meant Judas ... for he ... was going to betray Him.” really sounds to you like Judas was was destined to sit with Jesus on a throne and rule over nations?

[John 17:12 NASB] 12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

• “but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled” really sounds to you like Judas was was destined to sit with Jesus on a throne and rule over nations?

OK, I have nothing to say but “God bless you”.

 

[PeterJens]

1. The bible indeed teaches that we have free will.
Beginning in the O.T. with, for example, Deuteronomy 30:19 where we are told to CHOOSE LIFE.

Choosing implies free will.
I cannot choose, if I don't have free will.
The extent could be debated...

2. God is omniscient. He knows all. This is not debatable.

3. Many bible verses confirm predestination. There are two types of predestination...

A. God has destined all to be lost unless they meet His requirements due to man's fallen state. This is also the predestination that Augustine taught (400 AD)..No sliver of predestination was taught BEFORE Him and he never taught double predestination -- what is taught today.

B. The predestination spoken of in the bible speaks to WHAT God has predestined....not WHO God has predestined.

It would take a God we are not familiar with to save some persons and allow others to go to eternal damnation through no fault of their own but based solely on His wishes.

Please read the following and tell me what is predestined...
it's a favorite verse of the reformed (calvinists):

Romans 8:28-30
28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.



God knew you would eat the steak.
WIP explained this well....
Because God knows something does not mean He causes it to happen.

Your little son hates being told to go to bed and complains every night. You know he will complain. You tell him to go to bed. He complains. Did YOU make him complain? The only predestined thing going on here is that bedtime had to come.


:yes


God predestined how the world would work....the scientific laws, etc.
God predestined a way of salvation for us.
God predestined how we would spend eternity.
If God predestined every little thing we eat and do...would we be human or would we be little robots?
Would GOD be happy having the love of little robots? NO!!
God did predestine some of what some people would do...this could be discussed later on if you wish.


You're right. Our mind cannot comprehend everything. If we understood God..we would be a God.

We have free will......
but in the end all will work out the way God wants it to by working our mistakes to His desire.

Genesis 50:20

Joseph could have died in the well.
God took his brother's evil act, and worked it for good.

God knows the future but chooses to participate in the present. If one wants a statement of free will that is it. God participates because events flow from this, without which the would be no hope. So He works in the now to create the future. Determinism creates a cold inevitable outcome preset.
It is why God speaks to Moses, offers him Israel, because free will works and Moses must choose to say no. The offer was real, the frustration of God vibrant, which has puzzled me for a long time. What a Lord we follow, Praise His name, amen

 

[atpollard]

Actually the word freewill goes back to the original Hebrew word רצון חופשי - noun - the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. In English described as free, desire, independence, volition, liberty, freedom, accord, choice, will, wish and discretion. We have to remember the Tanakh (OT) was written in Hebrew and Aramaic.

So in what verse does ‘free will’ appear in the OT?

 

[atpollard]

??
In your belief system....if you agree with the reformation teachings...
you can eat whatever you want to...
as long as God has predestined you to eat it.

In which case, you have NO free will.

How about if we, just for the sake of discussion, assume that I really believe what I say I believe rather than what you say I believe.

I am a Baptist, so I believe in the baptism of “believers” (called Credobaptism from the Latin ‘credo’ = ‘I believe’). As a Baptist, I do not believe in the baptism of “households”, which would include the infants of believers (called Paedobaptism from ‘paedo’ = ‘child’).

I am a Particular Baptist, which means that I believe that God saves specific individuals (the elect whom God draws) rather than “anyone that chooses to believe”. Particular Baptists trace back to the Reformed Church in Germany and Holland plus the Anglican Church in England. There are also “General Baptists” who agree with me on baptism, but accept “free will” choice over God’s sovereign draw.

As a Particular Baptist, I believe in the 5 points commonly known as TULIP. I believe man has Total Inability to freely choose (which is why God must draw). I believe that men are Unconditionally Elected by God and not chosen because of any merit in the people (like freely choosing while another freely rejects God’s grace). I believe that the atonement of Jesus was limited to His Sheep and was not wasted on the tares and goats. I believe that those whom the Father draws WILL and MUST come to Jesus and are His sheep. I believe that God’s arm is not short and God WILL and DOES complete the good work that God starts ... those called are justified and glorified.

I do not believe the corruption of Double Predestination taught by Hypercalvinists (who are not actually Calvinists at all but radical Supralapsarians) that makes God the equal author of the good that the saved do and the evil that the unsaved do. I do not believe that God’s predestination (the Bible clearly does use the word “predestine”/”predestined” in relation to God) makes men into mindless robots

 

[atpollard]

We are indeed chosen....
IF we adhere to the conditions God has set for one that WISHES to be chosen.

So God chooses those that work hard and earn it?
Do you have a verse in mind?

 

[for_his_glory]

So in what verse does ‘free will’ appear in the OT?

It's like the word Trinity that is not found in scripture, but that scripture explains what it means. It's the same with the word freewill that is not found in scripture, but the first time we see it being exercised is found in Genesis 2:16; 3:1-6.

The Tanakh was not written in English, nor were the Dead Sea scrolls. For that matter the whole English Bible was translated from the Hebrew and Aramaic as in the NT Jesus spoke both Hebrew and Aramaic. All we have are the English words that come from the definitions of the Hebrew and Aramaic. Even the Greek has to be equivalent of both.

 

[GodsGrace]

So in what verse does ‘free will’ appear in the OT?

Philomen 14
14but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.


Leviticus 22:23
23‘In respect to an ox or a lamb which has an overgrown or stunted member, you may present it for a freewill offering, but for a vow it will not be accepted.

And, as any person knowledgeable in ANY language will know...
when given a choice...it implies that we have the free will to make a choice.

But the two above should suffice..
IF you care to respond.

 

[PeterJens]

So in what verse does ‘free will’ appear in the OT?

This is a good question. Job was given a free choice to respond to God. But he had no choice over losing his family and suffering.
Equally the hinge of faith is a gift and a choice. But does a child choose to love their parents or is it part of life?
I have seen both love and hurt, choice and reaction to pain.
The apostles talked of God giving the gift of repentance.
Paul talks of sowing to the Spirit or the flesh. So to see is God's gift, to continue is our choice to respond in love....

 

[atpollard]

It's like the word Trinity that is not found in scripture, but that scripture explains what it means. It's the same with the word freewill that is not found in scripture, but the first time we see it being exercised is found in Genesis 2:16; 3:1-6.

Then you confirm the simple point that I made. The term “Predestined” does appear in the Bible and is defined by its context. The term “Free will” does not appear in the Bible (except a single example between Philemon and Onesimus) which leaves people free to adopt a broad range of personal definitions.

 

[GodsGrace]

How about if we, just for the sake of discussion, assume that I really believe what I say I believe rather than what you say I believe.

I am a Baptist, so I believe in the baptism of “believers” (called Credobaptism from the Latin ‘credo’ = ‘I believe’). As a Baptist, I do not believe in the baptism of “households”, which would include the infants of believers (called Paedobaptism from ‘paedo’ = ‘child’).

I am a Particular Baptist, which means that I believe that God saves specific individuals (the elect whom God draws) rather than “anyone that chooses to believe”. Particular Baptists trace back to the Reformed Church in Germany and Holland plus the Anglican Church in England. There are also “General Baptists” who agree with me on baptism, but accept “free will” choice over God’s sovereign draw.

As a Particular Baptist, I believe in the 5 points commonly known as TULIP. I believe man has Total Inability to freely choose (which is why God must draw). I believe that men are Unconditionally Elected by God and not chosen because of any merit in the people (like freely choosing while another freely rejects God’s grace). I believe that the atonement of Jesus was limited to His Sheep and was not wasted on the tares and goats. I believe that those whom the Father draws WILL and MUST come to Jesus and are His sheep. I believe that God’s arm is not short and God WILL and DOES complete the good work that God starts ... those called are justified and glorified.

I do not believe the corruption of Double Predestination taught by Hypercalvinists (who are not actually Calvinists at all but radical Supralapsarians) that makes God the equal author of the good that the saved do and the evil that the unsaved do. I do not believe that God’s predestination (the Bible clearly does use the word “predestine”/”predestined” in relation to God) makes men into mindless robots

Right.

Which part of my post to you was incorrect as to what you believe? I said IF you believe in the reformed faith,,,THIS is what is believed. Are you saying the reformed faith has splintered into many sects...Then the other sects should not be called reformed or calvinist---perhaps some new title could be made up?

I don't care to study MEN...especially those born 1,500 years after Jesus died.
I prefer the bible and, sometimes on rare occasion the Early Fathers, Of course EARLY means pre 325 AD.

So what is not accepted by the reformed is called hyper-calvinism.
Could you please explain what hypercalvinism is? Because there's no such faith called hypercalvinism. If you accept TULIP, you accept normal everyday calvinism/reformed doctrine. It would seem to me that you call hyper-calvinism that part of calvinism that you don't like, but that is nevertheless true.

Maybe Particular Baptists should trace back to the Apostles and not to some church in Germany, England or anywhere else. Go straight to the source. In view of the fact that the source was so different....

It was nice of you to explain to me what you believe,,,but, alas, it does seem I already knew what you believe.

 

[GodsGrace]

Then you confirm the simple point that I made. The term “Predestined” does appear in the Bible and is defined by its context. The term “Free will” does not appear in the Bible (except a single example between Philemon and Onesimus) which leaves people free to adopt a broad range of personal definitions.

The term free will appears in the bible at least 15 times.
Please read and reply to my post no. 35.

What do you think Paul meant about Philemon making a choice of her own FREE WILL to accept Onesimus back?

Paul even says he does not want Philomen to make a COMPULSIVE decision but of his own free will.

 

[GodsGrace]

It's like the word Trinity that is not found in scripture, but that scripture explains what it means. It's the same with the word freewill that is not found in scripture, but the first time we see it being exercised is found in Genesis 2:16; 3:1-6.

The Tanakh was not written in English, nor were the Dead Sea scrolls. For that matter the whole English Bible was translated from the Hebrew and Aramaic as in the NT Jesus spoke both Hebrew and Aramaic. All we have are the English words that come from the definitions of the Hebrew and Aramaic. Even the Greek has to be equivalent of both.

Trinity may not be in the bible...
but the concept is there.

Free will does appear in the bible,,,not only in English but in other languages.

In any case,,,the concept is there.

Where there is a choice to be made....it signifies we have free will.

Where Jesus says that some did not go to Him...it signifies that we have free will to go to Him or not.

John 5:40
40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.