Fate... Free Will vs Predestination

[JLB]

Sure, I like simple requests.

[John 6:44 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws[G1670] him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

[G1670] ἑλκύω helkýō, hel-koo'-o; probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively):—draw

Here are other uses of the same word:


[John 6:44 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws[G1670] him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

• The verse in question where GOD HIMSELF does the dragging.

The question I asked was for a scripture that used the term
“Irresistible Draw of God”.


So far I do not see that term used in scripture.

I see the word “draw”, but not the rest of the phrase.


Jesus said this also in John —


And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” This He said, signifying by what death He would die.
John 12:32-33


If Jesus is crucified, He said He would draw all people to Himself.


Are all people going to be saved?


I don’t find any scriptures that use the phrase —

Irresistible draw of God
Irresistible Grace


These seem to be terms used by Calvinist’s.


Jesus did not use the term nor did His disciples.


Here’s the truth -


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


Whoever believes.


Not whoever God forces to be saved, but whoever believes.


Salvation is the result of believing.
Believing is not the result of salvation.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I had acknowledged this verse in my original post on this. It refers to the free will of Philemon to forgive Onesimus. That proves nothing (one way or another) about the “free will” relationship between God and man.

Oh.

So you're stating above that we have libertarian free will for everything having to do with morals....

God does NOT predestine anything and we have total free will....
libertarian of course since compatible free will is NO free will AT ALL.

EXCEPT that HE chooses who will be saved and who will be lost.

Do you have some kind of link to this?
It's a kind of strange reformed idea that I've never heard of before now.

I'd appreciate it.

 

[PeterJens]

Oh.

So you're stating above that we have libertarian free will for everything having to do with morals....

God does NOT predestine anything and we have total free will....
libertarian of course since compatible free will is NO free will AT ALL.

EXCEPT that HE chooses who will be saved and who will be lost.

Do you have some kind of link to this?
It's a kind of strange reformed idea that I've never heard of before now.

I'd appreciate it.

The idea that everything is predetermined by God or fatalism of sorts, leads one to a massive psychological problem. We all live on the basis we take responsibility for our actions, all of them, and learn carefully how to exercise our choice to stop harm to ourselves and others. Psychologically we are built to find meaning in working towards goals and meeting them and helping others do the same. Progress in whatever form is how we are built.

Just listen to people unoccupied. "I am bored" In war we rely on the unit to fight for each other out of empathy and bonding. Everything we do relies at its foundation is choice and what motivates the choices we make. You can show childhood development is stunted if a child is shocked into not exploring and discovering and exercising free will to find out new things. Pandorras box is founded on this inquisitive nature that is in us. Just look at young babies as they explore the world.

Naturelists declare they are determined by biology and value comes from our programming and nothing is free chosen. But when you look at their families and careers they follow the same free will choice and reward system. It is like a person who can see claiming they are blind yet magically live a disciplined reward centred life as if the rewards have meaning, but in a determinist world nothing has meaning because it is ordained to be this way.

What is being missed is abrogation of guilt. If we are not responsible how can we be guilty or need to resolve issues. They are what they are, part of human nature, part of our environment, not our problem. Emotions and emotional stability is our highest drive, and we will ignore the obvious to believe the delusion that keeps us happy. We all suffer from this, and it is necessary to achieve goals, which may or may not be worthwhile, in the belief they will work, else we would never start.

And over time that is where I stop. If we come to see the truth and walk in the light we find real freedom. If we want to wash our hands and claim we are innocent, while claiming we can do nothing about our behaviour, any excuse will be used to keep us where we are, and the force of the argument will increase the more it is challenged, simply because our stability trumps everything else. God bless you

 

[for_his_glory]

Non sequitur.
I am discussing what words are defined in scripture explicitly and what words man must infer from scripture.

If you believe that “free will”, as used to represent the ability of man to choose salvation and faith or reject salvation and faith apart from the Irresistible Draw of God, appears in scripture, then feel free to present the scripture that uses the term and defines it from the context in which it appears as well as the root words in the original language. I will gladly do the same for “predestined” if you have any doubt that the word appears in scripture or is defined by the context in which it appears.

How you jump from a simple statement about what words and phrases literally appear in scripture to such an extreme conclusion about Eve is a mystery to me.

For the record, I believe Eve had free will (even if the phrase only appears in relationship to Philemon towards Onesimus in scripture). Adam also had free will. Technically God does not have free Will since God cannot choose to do evil, so there is room for debate whether Jesus could actually have sinned (had free will). I believe those born ”slaves to sin” (which is everyone else) does not have FREE will, but has a fallen nature that makes their “will” under bondage to sin and death.

Everyone has a nature that taints their will ... the lost are enslaved to flesh and sin while the saved are slaves of righteousness and the Spirit. No person is “neutral” and no person chooses to act contrary to their nature. We are free to do whatever we want, but people either have a dead heart of stone that WANTS sin, or a living heart with the laws of God written on it that WANTS righteousness. All men are free to follow their heart and do what they WANT.

I am discussing what words are defined in scripture explicitly and what words man must infer from scripture.

If you believe that “free will”, as used to represent the ability of man to choose salvation and faith or reject salvation and faith apart from the Irresistible Draw of God, appears in scripture, then feel free to present the scripture that uses the term and defines it from the context in which it appears as well as the root words in the original language. I will gladly do the same for “predestined” if you have any doubt that the word appears in scripture or is defined by the context in which it appears.

I have already given the original Hebrew plus the scriptures so no need to keep repeating myself as you can go back and read them starting with my first reply to this topic.

How you jump from a simple statement about what words and phrases literally appear in scripture to such an extreme conclusion about Eve is a mystery to me.

I gave the reference to Eve in showing where words and phrases are literally found in scripture just as wondering gave you the scripture that uses the word freewill, but you seem to reject them according to your opinions about them.

 

[GodsGrace]

First, the verse is no free-will action between man and God discussed in that verse, the word ‘free Will’ is a noun that identifies the offering being made.

The verse, Philomen 14, is stating that Paul does not want P to take any decision based on any constriction he might have felt in owing to Paul....but because P wanted, of his own free will to take O back.
O had the free will to take back his slave or not. This is a choice...this is free will...libertarian free will.

If those in the N.T. believed in compatible free will...MANY verses would never have been said.

For instance, when Paul exhorts the followers to behave in a certain way. IF God determines HOW they are to behave....why would any of the writers be so strong in telling the disciples how to live their life?
Ephesians 5:1-6

[H5701] = נְדָבָה nᵉdâbâh, ned-aw-baw'; from H5068; properly (abstractly) spontaneity, or (adjectively) spontaneous; also (concretely) a spontaneous or (by inference, in plural) abundant gift:—free(-will) offering, freely, plentiful, voluntary(-ily, offering), willing(-ly), offering).

In this specific verse the single Hebrew word refers to “a sacrifice given that was not due to a vow”. It says nothing about man being free to obey God or not obey God based on the will of man (which is what most people mean when they say “free will”).

It matters not what the verse is referring to A....
What matters is that the sacrifice was made by FREE WILL.
Voluntarily is another word for free will.
Offering, freely means Free Will.

So much has to be changed so that what the reformed believe could match up with scripture....
Instead of the other way around.

 

[GodsGrace]

Then you confirm the simple point that I made. The term “Predestined” does appear in the Bible and is defined by its context. The term “Free will” does not appear in the Bible (except a single example between Philemon and Onesimus) which leaves people free to adopt a broad range of personal definitions.

Is the above a play on words?

You stated:

which leaves people free to adopt a broad range of personal definitions.

So you DO believe people are free?
JK I know you don't.
******************************************************

The above statement is not correct, as you surely must know.
People are NOT FREE to make up their own meanings of words in the bible.

If t his were true,,,we could stop reading it tomorrow since it would not be logical and would make the understanding of it to be impossible.

Words have meanings. The meanings of words become very important and even are changed in the reformed faith because it is IMPOSSIBLE to accept the words in the bible and still believe in TULIP.

Free will is in the bible from Genesis 1 to Revelation....

Genesis 2:17
17"but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

Why would God tell Adam not to eat the fruit of a particular tree IF it would be GOD to determine whether or not Adam would? It sounds like Adam had free will to eat it or not eat it.

Why was God so angry at Adam when he DID eat it, if God had predestined Adam to do this?



Revelation 22:11b
11......and let the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."

Is it not God who keeps us holy?
Above it states that it is WE that keep ourselves holy.

This reminds me of Jesus when He said that some would not enter into heaven and He even gave the reason why.......

He didn't say because the Father did not choose them...
Jesus said "because they practiced lawlessness."
Matthew 7:23

God does NOT choose men arbitrarily to go to hell...He give them the opportunity to go to heaven IF they obey His commandments.

 

[for_his_glory]

atpollard
What you are not seeing within all the post and scriptures we have given to you is that you can not see freewill as a choice between God and man as what man acts upon by his own freedom to decide what he wants to believe. Why is that?

Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Notice this verse where only one man found favor as everyone else on the face of the earth chose to turn away from God as that was their choice and by them exercising their free will the consequences was that they were destroyed being swallowed up in the flood.

Now compare this with Ephesians 1:3-23 where we are chosen of God before the foundation of the world as we were created to be holy and without blame before Him in love. God predestined His plan of salvation through Christ way before the creation of man who has redeemed us from our sin and we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise until the day of redemption. Holy, blameless and love is a choice we make in pleasing God as many are called by God, but few are chosen as they chose to reject him.

Ephesians 2:1 starts out by using the word quickened, which means revive, make alive or restore it to a former flourishing condition. By God's grace through faith that is Christ Jesus in whom we have chosen to believe in, He has brought us from being dead to God to being alive to God as that all comes about by the Spiritual rebirth and being indwelled with the Holy Spirit, John 3:5-7. Grace does not come by effort as it's a free gift freely given to all who will accept this gift from God. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

free will
noun - the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion

 

[OzSpen]

Concerning Salvation —

God’s will is that not any should perish?

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9


Maybe you could present the term God’s Sovereign will, in a scripture so I can understand the difference between God’s will, and God’s Sovereign will.


One thing I have noticed about Calvinism or Reformed Theology is, they have several terms that are not found in scripture to prop up their man made concepts.

Example:

Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace

God’s Sovereign Will



JLB

JLB,

The exact words, God's sovereign wiill (GSW)
do not have to be in Scriptute or the doctrine to be taught. Cf the Trinity

GSW is taught in Dan 4:35, Ps 115:3; Ac 4:27-28.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

The idea that everything is predetermined by God or fatalism of sorts, leads one to a massive psychological problem. We all live on the basis we take responsibility for our actions, all of them, and learn carefully how to exercise our choice to stop harm to ourselves and others. Psychologically we are built to find meaning in working towards goals and meeting them and helping others do the same. Progress in whatever form is how we are built.

Just listen to people unoccupied. "I am bored" In war we rely on the unit to fight for each other out of empathy and bonding. Everything we do relies at its foundation is choice and what motivates the choices we make. You can show childhood development is stunted if a child is shocked into not exploring and discovering and exercising free will to find out new things. Pandorras box is founded on this inquisitive nature that is in us. Just look at young babies as they explore the world.

Naturelists declare they are determined by biology and value comes from our programming and nothing is free chosen. But when you look at their families and careers they follow the same free will choice and reward system. It is like a person who can see claiming they are blind yet magically live a disciplined reward centred life as if the rewards have meaning, but in a determinist world nothing has meaning because it is ordained to be this way.

What is being missed is abrogation of guilt. If we are not responsible how can we be guilty or need to resolve issues. They are what they are, part of human nature, part of our environment, not our problem. Emotions and emotional stability is our highest drive, and we will ignore the obvious to believe the delusion that keeps us happy. We all suffer from this, and it is necessary to achieve goals, which may or may not be worthwhile, in the belief they will work, else we would never start.

And over time that is where I stop. If we come to see the truth and walk in the light we find real freedom. If we want to wash our hands and claim we are innocent, while claiming we can do nothing about our behaviour, any excuse will be used to keep us where we are, and the force of the argument will increase the more it is challenged, simply because our stability trumps everything else. God bless you

Of course I have thought of the above...
but who could put it into such wording???!!

1. We wash our hands and think we are innocent.

2. We cannot be responsible for our sins IF it is GOD that has predetermined that we will sin. In fact, it makes God responsible for all sin - but the bible teaches us that in Him there is no darkness. A problem indeed! This would be quite a biblical conflict.


Basically, this is what you're saying...
and, of course, it's 100% correct.

 

[JLB]

JLB,

The exact words, God's sovereign wiill (GSW)
do not have to be in Scriptute or the doctrine to be taught. Cf the Trinity

GSW is taught in Dan 4:35, Ps 115:3; Ac 4:27-28.

Oz

I don’t use the word “Trinity” in my discussions for this very reason. I uses the biblical word “Godhead”.

Also I show that most of the words in the OT are rendered “God”, refer to the Hebrew “Elohim”, a plural word for God.


Maybe you could define the term “Sovereign will of God” for us and point out any differences there are between “”God’s will”.



JLB

 

[atpollard]

Do you believe people can be saved without repentance?

Have I said anything to make you think that I do?

 

[atpollard]

So far I do not see that term used in scripture.

Oh well, I guess the Trinity doesn’t exist either.

For the record, I proved that the word DRAW is always irresistible. If you resist and do not come, then you were not drawn ... whether a sword from a scabbard, a criminal to a court, or a man to Christ.

 

[atpollard]

So you're stating above that we have libertarian free will for everything having to do with morals....

No.

 

[JLB]

Oh well, I guess the Trinity doesn’t exist either.

I use words that are found in the Bible.


Trinity is not found in the Bible.


Godhead is.




JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

By using our free-will we choose whether to be "in Christ" and thus saved (Gal. 3:26-27). So, we see God's part (His gracious plan of human redemption which is accomplished through the death of Christ), and man's part (faith in Christ, cf. Jas. 2:14-26; Matt. 7:21-23) combining to complete the equation of salvation (Eph. 2:8-9).

 

[JLB]

For the record, I proved that the word DRAW is always irresistible.

How so?

I gave you a scripture using this same word draw.

Draw Strongs 1670 - helko

1. to draw, drag off
2. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” This He said, signifying by what death He would die. John 12:32-33


Will “all peoples” be saved?



JLB

 

[JLB]

Have I said anything to make you think that I do?

So you believe that a person must make the choice to believe and repent, in order to be saved?


Some Calvinist’s teach that we must first be saved, before we can believe, rather than believing to be saved.

Is that what you believe?



JLB

 

[atpollard]

I have already given the original Hebrew plus the scriptures so no need to keep repeating myself as you can go back and read them starting with my first reply to this topic.

I gave the reference to Eve in showing where words and phrases are literally found in scripture just as wondering gave you the scripture that uses the word freewill, but you seem to reject them according to your opinions about them.

You confuse me.
Do you read Hebrew or not?

It is not that one or the other makes you special. I am just confused because one moment you post the Hebrew for “free will” as if you are speaking with authority on the original language, but when pressed for a verse where that Hebrew word appears, you admit that it is not in the Bible. That makes me wonder what your original point was. I can probably find the Hebrew words for “Double Predestination”, but that would not prove that the Bible teaches Double Presetination.

Then someone presents the noun “freewill offering” which is one word in Hebrew as proof that men have a free will to accept or reject God, and you support their abuse of the Hebrew language as if a “freewill offering” was synonymous with “human free will towards salvation”.

You either do not understand Hebrew and were quoting a phrase from somewhere else, or you are one of the worse Hebrew scholars on the face of the earth. There have been many great men that have made a case for human “free will” in the salvation process, but the OT “freewill offering” is not part of any legitimate claim to human free will.

 

[atpollard]

How so?

I gave you a scripture using this same word draw.

Draw Strongs 1670 - helko

1. to draw, drag off
2. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” This He said, signifying by what death He would die. John 12:32-33


Will “all peoples” be saved?

JLB

Your example is a circular definition since both cases are identical.

Yes “all peoples” will be drawn and “all peoples“ will be saved.
Jesus said so, didn’t He?

Now what is the correct meaning of the Greek for “all peoples”?

 

[atpollard]

So much has to be changed so that what the reformed believe could match up with scripture....
Instead of the other way around.

You are the one redefining the original words to make a “freewill offering” say that man has libertarian free will to reject the gift of salvation offered by God ... yet you accuse the Reformed of redefining words?

I can point to scriptures where God says that we are PREDESTINED and the word means “predestined”. So when you point a finger at us, three more are pointing back at you. ?