atpollard
Member
I had acknowledged this verse in my original post on this. It refers to the free will of Philemon to forgive Onesimus. That proves nothing (one way or another) about the “free will” relationship between God and man.
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Fate... Free Will vs Predestination
- Thread starter Christ the King
- Start date
I agree as the definition is there or as the word you used, concept, of freewill is all through the scriptures as we make our own choices. I can either choose to believe in God, or dent there even is a God. Freewill is just that simple to understand. It's like i said, God did not predestine the man in which individuals would be saved or lost, He predestined the plan of salvation through Christ Jesus in that of how men would be saved even before the foundation of the world. God does the calling, but yet it's up to us to hear Him calling us to Him.
atpollard
Member
First, the verse is no free-will action between man and God discussed in that verse, the word ‘free Will’ is a noun that identifies the offering being made.
[H5701] = נְדָבָה nᵉdâbâh, ned-aw-baw'; from H5068; properly (abstractly) spontaneity, or (adjectively) spontaneous; also (concretely) a spontaneous or (by inference, in plural) abundant gift:—free(-will) offering, freely, plentiful, voluntary(-ily, offering), willing(-ly), offering).
In this specific verse the single Hebrew word refers to “a sacrifice given that was not due to a vow”. It says nothing about man being free to obey God or not obey God based on the will of man (which is what most people mean when they say “free will”).
Respectfully it does not confirm the point you made as wondering already gave the scripture that uses the word freewill. Even if it is the only place it is used it is still in the scripture and still the context is by our own choice we make.
So you do not believe that Eve choose to disobey God as she made her own choice, especially after God telling her not to eat of the fruit of the tree. Throughout all the scriptures we see many making their own choices and the consequences that came with their choice. I truly can not understand how you do not see this.
free will
noun - the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion
Genesis 3:
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
adjective - (especially of a donation) given readily; voluntary "freewill offerings"
Leviticus 22:23 Either a bullock or a lamb that hath any thing superfluous or lacking in his parts, that mayest thou offer for a freewill offering; but for a vow it shall not be accepted.
noun - the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion
Genesis 3:
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
adjective - (especially of a donation) given readily; voluntary "freewill offerings"
Leviticus 22:23 Either a bullock or a lamb that hath any thing superfluous or lacking in his parts, that mayest thou offer for a freewill offering; but for a vow it shall not be accepted.
atpollard
Member
Non sequitur.
I am discussing what words are defined in scripture explicitly and what words man must infer from scripture.
If you believe that “free will”, as used to represent the ability of man to choose salvation and faith or reject salvation and faith apart from the Irresistible Draw of God, appears in scripture, then feel free to present the scripture that uses the term and defines it from the context in which it appears as well as the root words in the original language. I will gladly do the same for “predestined” if you have any doubt that the word appears in scripture or is defined by the context in which it appears.
How you jump from a simple statement about what words and phrases literally appear in scripture to such an extreme conclusion about Eve is a mystery to me.
For the record, I believe Eve had free will (even if the phrase only appears in relationship to Philemon towards Onesimus in scripture). Adam also had free will. Technically God does not have free Will since God cannot choose to do evil, so there is room for debate whether Jesus could actually have sinned (had free will). I believe those born ”slaves to sin” (which is everyone else) does not have FREE will, but has a fallen nature that makes their “will” under bondage to sin and death.
Everyone has a nature that taints their will ... the lost are enslaved to flesh and sin while the saved are slaves of righteousness and the Spirit. No person is “neutral” and no person chooses to act contrary to their nature. We are free to do whatever we want, but people either have a dead heart of stone that WANTS sin, or a living heart with the laws of God written on it that WANTS righteousness. All men are free to follow their heart and do what they WANT.
atpollard
Member
No one in the Reformed faith believes that man has “no free will”. We all believe that our free will does not save us by allowing man to choose or reject God apart from the Irresistible DRAW of God. I know you hate it when I bring it up, but we believe Ephesians 2:1-10 really does describe how God saves people and how people are saved. That is not “no free will“. The opening verses describe the natural WILL of man freely followed and verse 10 describes men freely following their new Spirit led WILL. We do not believe in a “neutral” will of man.
Concerning Salvation —
God’s will is that not any should perish?
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9
Maybe you could present the term God’s Sovereign will, in a scripture so I can understand the difference between God’s will, and God’s Sovereign will.
One thing I have noticed about Calvinism or Reformed Theology is, they have several terms that are not found in scripture to prop up their man made concepts.
Example:
Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
God’s Sovereign Will
JLB
Last edited:
Could you please show us where to find the scripture that uses the term “Irresistible Draw of God”?
If you are discussing what words are found in scripture then if should be easy.
JLB
Please bring up any scripture you would like to discuss.
It would be a refreshing change from hearing so much opinion.
Stating your opinion then tagging your opinion with a scripture reference, is not the same thing as actually posting the scripture itself, and emphasizing the actual words of the scripture themselves, without employing man made words and terms, mixed with the scripture.
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:1-10
- For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Amen. God is good.
By grace through our faith we have been saved.
Would you like to discuss what faith is and how it works?
JLB
The Church.
Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
atpollard
Member
Sure, I like simple requests.
[John 6:44 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws[G1670] him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
[G1670] ἑλκύω helkýō, hel-koo'-o; probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively):—draw
Here are other uses of the same word:
[John 6:44 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws[G1670] him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
- The verse in question where GOD HIMSELF does the dragging.
- Since Jesus is God, this is the same sort of example as the verse in question and adds no clarity.
- Did the sword have a choice to be drawn or refuse to be drawn? Rather, was the drawing of the sword not completely the decision of the person drawing it. If the sword had remained in its scabbard, would anyone still say that Peter had “drawn” his sword? No, the sword must have come when Peter drew it or the sword was not drawn.
- Here the fish and the net refused to come into the boat ... so it says they were NOT ABLE TO “haul” it. Again, to be drawn, the action must be accomplished. Is there any doubt that GOD could have hauled a net into the boat?
- Peter drew the net because the net and fish came. The fish probably did not want to come, but it was not the desire of the fish that determined the outcome ... Peter irresistibly drew the fish by force using the net.
- Paul and Silas probably had no desire to visit the authorities. The crowd employed force to irresistibly draw them to the location. If the crowd had not been able to move them, it would not have said that they were “dragged” into the marketplace. Again the action must happen to be [G1670] and the desires of the subject being dragged is not the important factor.
- Would Paul have been “dragged” out of the temple if Paul still remained inside the temple? We’re Paul’s desires the deciding factor?
- Does the poor man get to choose whether or not he is dragged into court? If the poor man never goes to court then was he dragged to court?
In every case where the word is used, it requires the action to be successful and it is done irrespective of the desires of the person or object being drawn/hauled/dragged. Why is God drawing [G1670] men to Jesus treated so differently?
There is a Greek word for “invite”, but that is not what Jesus said.
atpollard
Member
Then I guess it is “the Church” that God was not willing that “any“ should perish (which DOES explain why God would delay the second coming until all the Saints had been born and gathered in). God certainly had no problem killing everyone in the Great Flood, so He isn’t squeamish when it comes to some perishing.
I like your point. The context is free will. Jesus calls His disciples, there is no compulsion, but a drawing, an effort to make sure of a response.
Jesus is saying He is invested in everything, as deeply as possible without force.
How great a King is this, that everything turns on the possible.
Peter knew Jesus, yet denied him so quickly, and not for any obvious reason than wanting to see what happened without commitment.
That is free will in action, and Jesus knew the tension it would create.
I find it hard to see a controlling hand, rather a speaking to truth and choice.
The more you know Jesus and His heart, the more secure we are. Our fears, our hopes are driven by this world. When peace reigns things look very different.
29 But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deut 4:29
1 O God, you are my God, earnestly I seek you; my soul thirsts for you, my body longs for you, in a dry and weary land where there is no water.
2 I have seen you in the sanctuary and beheld your power and your glory.
3 Because your love is better than life, my lips will glorify you.
Psalm 63:1-4
7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened
Matt 7:7-8
The reason God promises a response to those who seek Him, is because He has allowed people to choose. Such an offer would be pointless, if only those God predestines to be His come to Him, because of course they will seek and they will find, as there is no fear they will ever fall away or have difficulty because God will deliver them.
But scripture is all about persuasion, proving the value God has, and what He offers in terms of deliverance, and mans ability to go his own way. Israel was shown everything, great wonders, and given one chance, party, golden calf and have a good time.
Are we mere animals driven by our desires or does God truly touch our hearts and remake us in His image? Do we know what molds us and drives us forward, or is much of this a mystery? I find much is a mystery, until I see a consistent way through and find myself able to deliver to this.
Deut 4:29
1 O God, you are my God, earnestly I seek you; my soul thirsts for you, my body longs for you, in a dry and weary land where there is no water.
2 I have seen you in the sanctuary and beheld your power and your glory.
3 Because your love is better than life, my lips will glorify you.
Psalm 63:1-4
7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened
Matt 7:7-8
The reason God promises a response to those who seek Him, is because He has allowed people to choose. Such an offer would be pointless, if only those God predestines to be His come to Him, because of course they will seek and they will find, as there is no fear they will ever fall away or have difficulty because God will deliver them.
But scripture is all about persuasion, proving the value God has, and what He offers in terms of deliverance, and mans ability to go his own way. Israel was shown everything, great wonders, and given one chance, party, golden calf and have a good time.
Are we mere animals driven by our desires or does God truly touch our hearts and remake us in His image? Do we know what molds us and drives us forward, or is much of this a mystery? I find much is a mystery, until I see a consistent way through and find myself able to deliver to this.
Faith is a gift from God, that comes to us when God speaks to us, either directly or indirectly such through a prophet or someone He sends to preach the Gospel.
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17
- So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
again
By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8
- By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out
In this instance, the Lord spoke directly to Abraham in which, Abraham obeyed and was justified. In this illustration we see from several other accounts that this foreshadowed the Gospel and justification to the Gentiles.
In every case, faith is seen to activated or made alive by the corresponding obedient respond to the word from God through which we receive faith as a gift.
JLB
Peter is writing to the Church, explaining why the Lord’s Coming has not happened, because He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9
Do you believe people can be saved without repentance?
JLB