Father Forgive Them....They Do Not Know What They Are Doing

[GodsGrace]

Part 3 of 7

Luke 23:34-36
34But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves.
35And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.”
36The soldiers also mocked Him, coming up to Him, offering Him sour wine,


Jesus of Nazareth is looking down from the cross just after he was crucified between two criminals. He sees the soldiers who have mocked, scourged, and tortured him, and who have just nailed him to the cross. He probably remembers those who have sentenced him - Caiaphas and the high priests of the Sanhedrin. Pilate realized it was out of envy that they handed him over.
Matthew 27:18
Mark 15:10

But is Jesus not also thinking of his Apostles and companions who have deserted him, to Peter who has denied him three times, to the fickle crowd who only days before praised him on his entrance to Jerusalem, and then days later demanded his crucifixion?

Is He also thinking of us, who often forget him in our lives?

Does he react angrily? No! At the height of his physical suffering, his love prevails and He asks His Father to forgive! Could there ever be greater irony? Jesus asks his Father to forgive, but it is by His very Sacrifice on the Cross that mankind is able to be forgiven.

Right up to his final hours on earth, Jesus preaches forgiveness.

He teaches forgiveness in the Lord's prayer: "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us"....
Matthew 6:12

When asked by Peter, how many times should we forgive someone, Jesus answers seventy times seven.
Matthew 18:21-22

He forgives the paralytic at Capernaum.
Mark 2:3-12

The sinful woman who anointed him in the home of Simon the Pharisee.
Luke 7:37-48


The adulteress caught in the act and about to be stoned.
John 8:1-11

During the Institution of the Eucharist at the Last Supper, Jesus tells them to drink of the cup:
"Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins"
Matthew 26:27-28

And even following His Resurrection, His first act is to commission his disciples to forgive: "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
John 20:22-23


Have the above fulfilled O.T. prophecies?
Why do you believe forgiving is so important?
Should we always forgive?

 

[JohnDB]

This is a thingy...
I have an answer...but it's long and convoluted and probably needs it's own thread.
The answer is about grace, holiness, and being able to forgive as a human being.

I'll give it to you whick and dirty but in order not to derail your thread don't ask questions.

Because each of us is somewhat allowed to commit a measure of sin (for which we still have need of forgiveness for) exceeding that limit has dire consequences that usually extends beyond ourselves. There needed to be some extraordinary forgiveness in this situation. (Torturing, humiliating, and killing Jesus was beyond the measure)
It wasn't asked for but it was granted due to the "ignorance factor" as Jesus pleaded their case.

God created the heavens and Earth.

But God said "Cursed is the Earth because of you"
Meaning that where all of creation was "very good"/holy it was not created with the capacity for forgiveness. Earth has been trying to return to it's holy status by removing unholy mankind from itself. God's hand holds it back a measure (common grace) and exceeding that limit brings the weight of the world's anger and frustration upon you...spilling all around you in overabundance to everyone around you.

Killing Jesus definitely was a "bad career move". The American courts used to have a philosophy about 10 guilty going free before convicting one innocent person to avoid the same issue.

But suffice it to say that according to Luke and the series of parables ending with the shrewd manager that we humans are incapable of forgiveness as sufficiently as God can and will. If we cannot forgive (as the Earth does not) we are doomed to destruction as the Earth is.

 

[stovebolts]

Part 3 of 7

Luke 23:34-36
34But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves.
35And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.”
36The soldiers also mocked Him, coming up to Him, offering Him sour wine,


Jesus of Nazareth is looking down from the cross just after he was crucified between two criminals. He sees the soldiers who have mocked, scourged, and tortured him, and who have just nailed him to the cross. He probably remembers those who have sentenced him - Caiaphas and the high priests of the Sanhedrin. Pilate realized it was out of envy that they handed him over.
Matthew 27:18
Mark 15:10

But is Jesus not also thinking of his Apostles and companions who have deserted him, to Peter who has denied him three times, to the fickle crowd who only days before praised him on his entrance to Jerusalem, and then days later demanded his crucifixion?

Is He also thinking of us, who often forget him in our lives?

Does he react angrily? No! At the height of his physical suffering, his love prevails and He asks His Father to forgive! Could there ever be greater irony? Jesus asks his Father to forgive, but it is by His very Sacrifice on the Cross that mankind is able to be forgiven.

Right up to his final hours on earth, Jesus preaches forgiveness.

He teaches forgiveness in the Lord's prayer: "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us"....
Matthew 6:12

When asked by Peter, how many times should we forgive someone, Jesus answers seventy times seven.
Matthew 18:21-22

He forgives the paralytic at Capernaum.
Mark 2:3-12

The sinful woman who anointed him in the home of Simon the Pharisee.
Luke 7:37-48


The adulteress caught in the act and about to be stoned.
John 8:1-11

During the Institution of the Eucharist at the Last Supper, Jesus tells them to drink of the cup:
"Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins"
Matthew 26:27-28

And even following His Resurrection, His first act is to commission his disciples to forgive: "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
John 20:22-23


Have the above fulfilled O.T. prophecies?
Why do you believe forgiving is so important?
Should we always forgive?

I couldn't answer the first question well, but I think forgiveness is important for several reasons.

1. It sets us free from the bondage of sins imposed upon us by others.
2. It sets the stage for reconciliation to occur in the event they ever realize their sin against you and they repent.

Should we always forgive? Yes. Sometimes it's hard to forgive somebody, especially if they hurt you deeply. But forgiveness does not mean setting yourself up to get abused repeatedly.

Sometimes we can't just wave a wand and forgive, but we try to work on it and eventually we get there.

If we dont learn how to forgive, a bitter root can take hold and we become miserable, angry people with miserable lives.

 

[RevSRE]

Why do you believe forgiving is so important?
Mar 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Should we always forgive?
YES always, not because I am so forgiving or good or even can be,

I do not witness, or preach, or visit because I love so much.
It is all because HE LOVED ME SO MUCH,
While we were yet sinners Christ died for us and that makes all the difference.

 

[Nathan12]

Why do you believe forgiving is so important?

The question should be "Why do God and Christ believe that forgiving is important?"

But before that question can be answered, we need to know what that word "forgive" means in Scripture. ἀφίημι (aphiémi) means to send away, let go, give up, release, discharge, or dismiss. So forgiveness is equivalent to the discharge or release of a debt.

Each time a person sins, he or she incurs a sin debt. And since Christ took upon Himself the sin debts of the whole world, He DEMANDS that Christians forgive others (as related to personal offences). Non- forgiveness is not an option for those who are in Christ, since God has forgiven us our total sin debt at the time He remitted or forgave our sins at conversion. (And that assumes and presumes that the sinner truly repented, since repentance is for the remission of sins).

An unforgiving spirit is like a cancer within the soul, which does more damage to the one holding grudges than the one who is the offender. God says "Vengeance is mine, I will repay" therefore the Christian must release every sin debt against him or her, and let God take action against the offender. We see this attitude in David when dealing with his enemy king Saul. David had several opportunities to retaliate, but deliberately held back. And Saul paid dearly for his sins.

 

[Who Me]

Everyone forgets that Jesus was teaching Old Testiment jews. For them to seek forgiveness from God they had to offer a sacrifice. Part of the ritual was to lay there hand on the sacrifical lambs head, acknowedging the transfer of their sin, guilt and shame to the sacrifice.
This could not be done without first knowing that one had sinned againsr God and that one was repentant.

Every time you read about forgiveness in the NT you have also to read in the unsaid need for repentance.

God does not forgive us if we do not repent.

Why do people say we should forgive those who are not sorry for there offence against us.
Even Jesus on the cross wasnot forgiving his murders, he was asking God to forgive them and God only forgives those who repent.

We should copy Jesus in asking God to deal with those who have offended us and to deal with our feelings about that offence.

 

[for_his_glory]

Everyone forgets that Jesus was teaching Old Testiment jews. For them to seek forgiveness from God they had to offer a sacrifice. Part of the ritual was to lay there hand on the sacrifical lambs head, acknowedging the transfer of their sin, guilt and shame to the sacrifice.
This could not be done without first knowing that one had sinned againsr God and that one was repentant.

Every time you read about forgiveness in the NT you have also to read in the unsaid need for repentance.

God does not forgive us if we do not repent.

Why do people say we should forgive those who are not sorry for there offence against us.
Even Jesus on the cross wasnot forgiving his murders, he was asking God to forgive them and God only forgives those who repent.

We should copy Jesus in asking God to deal with those who have offended us and to deal with our feelings about that offence.

First off, Jesus was not murdered, but laid His own life down that we can have eternal life with the Father, John 3:16. It was Deity that forgave those who persecuted Him to death as He hung on the cross for all of us, past, present and future.

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

You said: Why do people say we should forgive those who are not sorry for there offence against us.

This is why we must forgive those who trespass against us:

Mark 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why it's important to forgive:

When we forgive our enemies, everyone is "helped". First of all, when we forgive our enemies we are loving our enemies, which means that we are seeing God's goodness in them. This seeing is a wholeness, a "holinesss", to which we are called and is a freedom from enslavement to grudges, resentment, and hate, which hinder our ability to love.

In addition, when we forgive our enemies we are literally a "light for the world". Given that "we reap what we sow", if we sow love and forgiveness, we will reap the same. Specifically, it is the hope for the Kingdom in that as we forgive our enemy, eventually he will be inspired to do the same. (And when they do the same, they too will benefit from such forgiving!)

Forgiveness changes the whole tone of animosity. When we forgive, we are going against our natural compulsion to return violence with violence. We overcome our compulsions and embrace a supernatural response, one encouraged by Christ. Forgiveness of enemies is a supernatural response.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is a thingy...
I have an answer...but it's long and convoluted and probably needs it's own thread.
The answer is about grace, holiness, and being able to forgive as a human being.

I'll give it to you whick and dirty but in order not to derail your thread don't ask questions.

Because each of us is somewhat allowed to commit a measure of sin (for which we still have need of forgiveness for) exceeding that limit has dire consequences that usually extends beyond ourselves. There needed to be some extraordinary forgiveness in this situation. (Torturing, humiliating, and killing Jesus was beyond the measure)
It wasn't asked for but it was granted due to the "ignorance factor" as Jesus pleaded their case.

God created the heavens and Earth.

But God said "Cursed is the Earth because of you"
Meaning that where all of creation was "very good"/holy it was not created with the capacity for forgiveness. Earth has been trying to return to it's holy status by removing unholy mankind from itself. God's hand holds it back a measure (common grace) and exceeding that limit brings the weight of the world's anger and frustration upon you...spilling all around you in overabundance to everyone around you.

Killing Jesus definitely was a "bad career move". The American courts used to have a philosophy about 10 guilty going free before convicting one innocent person to avoid the same issue.

But suffice it to say that according to Luke and the series of parables ending with the shrewd manager that we humans are incapable of forgiveness as sufficiently as God can and will. If we cannot forgive (as the Earth does not) we are doomed to destruction as the Earth is.

I know many persons that call themselves Christian and yet have bitterness and unforgiveness in their lives. Some will even adamantly say they will never forgive a person that has done them wrong.

Maybe it's not preached enough in our churches?

As to the earth...sure, we also separated ourselves from the earth when Adam sinned. The earth is also waiting for redemption...
Romans 8.

 

[GodsGrace]

The question should be "Why do God and Christ believe that forgiving is important?"

But before that question can be answered, we need to know what that word "forgive" means in Scripture. ἀφίημι (aphiémi) means to send away, let go, give up, release, discharge, or dismiss. So forgiveness is equivalent to the discharge or release of a debt.

Each time a person sins, he or she incurs a sin debt. And since Christ took upon Himself the sin debts of the whole world, He DEMANDS that Christians forgive others (as related to personal offences). Non- forgiveness is not an option for those who are in Christ, since God has forgiven us our total sin debt at the time He remitted or forgave our sins at conversion. (And that assumes and presumes that the sinner truly repented, since repentance is for the remission of sins).

An unforgiving spirit is like a cancer within the soul, which does more damage to the one holding grudges than the one who is the offender. God says "Vengeance is mine, I will repay" therefore the Christian must release every sin debt against him or her, and let God take action against the offender. We see this attitude in David when dealing with his enemy king Saul. David had several opportunities to retaliate, but deliberately held back. And Saul paid dearly for his sins.

Very informative.
There seems to be a spiritual law about forgiveness, but I don't know it very well or understand it very well.

Jesus said to forgive others as God forgives us.
It's almost as if God is hindered in some way if we do not forgive.
It's even in the prayer Jesus taught us.

 

[for_his_glory]

It's almost as if God is hindered in some way if we do not forgive.

It is we who hinder God when we hold unforgiveness in our heart as it cause the blessings of God to be shut down in our life as unforgiveness breaks fellowship with God.

 

[Randy]

Part 3 of 7

Luke 23:34-36
34But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves.
35And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.”
36The soldiers also mocked Him, coming up to Him, offering Him sour wine,


Jesus of Nazareth is looking down from the cross just after he was crucified between two criminals. He sees the soldiers who have mocked, scourged, and tortured him, and who have just nailed him to the cross. He probably remembers those who have sentenced him - Caiaphas and the high priests of the Sanhedrin. Pilate realized it was out of envy that they handed him over.
Matthew 27:18
Mark 15:10

But is Jesus not also thinking of his Apostles and companions who have deserted him, to Peter who has denied him three times, to the fickle crowd who only days before praised him on his entrance to Jerusalem, and then days later demanded his crucifixion?

Is He also thinking of us, who often forget him in our lives?

Does he react angrily? No! At the height of his physical suffering, his love prevails and He asks His Father to forgive! Could there ever be greater irony? Jesus asks his Father to forgive, but it is by His very Sacrifice on the Cross that mankind is able to be forgiven.

Right up to his final hours on earth, Jesus preaches forgiveness.

He teaches forgiveness in the Lord's prayer: "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us"....
Matthew 6:12

When asked by Peter, how many times should we forgive someone, Jesus answers seventy times seven.
Matthew 18:21-22

He forgives the paralytic at Capernaum.
Mark 2:3-12

The sinful woman who anointed him in the home of Simon the Pharisee.
Luke 7:37-48


The adulteress caught in the act and about to be stoned.
John 8:1-11

During the Institution of the Eucharist at the Last Supper, Jesus tells them to drink of the cup:
"Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins"
Matthew 26:27-28

And even following His Resurrection, His first act is to commission his disciples to forgive: "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
John 20:22-23


Have the above fulfilled O.T. prophecies?
Why do you believe forgiving is so important?
Should we always forgive?

Two asked something of Jesus while He was on the cross. Only one received a reply. The one who believed in Him.

Jesus was asked why did He dwell among tax collectors and sinners. He stated He came to call the unrighteous to repentance. Figuratively it is the sick who needs a doctor. Likewise we are also to forgive others as God showed us mercy.

If you went to a prison to preach Christ would you not first ask them, "do you want to do evil?" If they answer yes move on. If they answer no you have a beginning.

 

[for_his_glory]

If you went to a prison to preach Christ would you not first ask them, "do you want to do evil?" If they answer yes move on. If they answer no you have a beginning.

I have to disagree with this as they already know they did wrong and it was their choice. When I used to do Prison Ministry the first thing I said was "Do you know the only difference between you and me is that I never got caught." That got their attention and then told them we are all sinners in need of forgiveness by God's grace. Then I talked about God's mercy, grace and His salvation.

 

[Who Me]

First off, Jesus was not murdered, but laid His own life down that we can have eternal life with the Father, John 3:16. It was Deity that forgave those who persecuted Him to death as He hung on the cross for all of us, past, present and future.

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

You said: Why do people say we should forgive those who are not sorry for there offence against us.

This is why we must forgive those who trespass against us:

Mark 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Lets put the quote in english:-25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

Note it says, 'If you hold anything against anyone.'

Also Jesus introduced the sacrifical system and was talking to Jews brought up under that system where to make a sacrifice/offering to God one had to have repented.
It is explained more clearly in Luke 17:3+4
3 So watch yourselves.
‘If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. 4 Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying “I repent,” you must forgive them.’

See how we are to copy God/Jesus, we sin and come to God saying 'sorry' for forgiveness so in the same way we are to be willin g to forgive others, like God if they repent.

Thos who don't, won't or can't we, like Jesus, hand over to God. That is the offence, our feelings and any guilt or suffering for God to deal with them and us.

Was Jesus murdered? Murder is unlawfull killing and his trial was illegal and the con demnation unlawfull, the confirmation of the sentance was equally unlawfull. Pilate repeatedly found no grounds for a death sentance and only agreed to avoid a riot.

Yes Jesus went voluntarily but that does not hide the facts that he was not executed but murdered.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Some things are hard to let go of. And so it's hard to forgive as well. On at least one of those occasions I've had to ask God to help me forgive.

For me it's inspiring to see a person who forgives right away. It's what we should all be able to do. Have a thick enough skin to not be bothered by any small or big thing against us. And to be able to forgive when people try to make it right.

As for why it's important. Because Jesus said so. There are more reasons then this, but I feel like a lot of following Jesus should have at the heart of the issues that Jesus told us. Trust that, regardless if we understand it fully, partially, or if we understand it at all.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes Jesus went voluntarily but that does not hide the facts that he was not executed but murdered.

Matthew 27:45 Now from the sixth hour (around 12 PM) there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour (around 3PM) Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice (at the ninth hour), yielded up the ghost.

Jesus was crucified being bound to the cross, which means criticized severely and unrelentingly as the Pharisees, Sanhedrin and the crowd of Jews who once followed after Him now condemned Him and cried out "Release Barabbas". Look what Jesus said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do", Luke 23:34. Even His own disciples deserted Him as He hung on the cross.

So, three hours Jesus hung on the cross then gave up the ghost and died. Jesus was not murdered, but condemned to die on the cross. It was Jesus who laid His life down. Know one understood who Jesus was until God raised Him to life again and He showed Himself to over 500 people that day, including His disciples, 1 Corinthians 15:6.

We too need to say Father forgive them for they do not know what they do as we forgive those who trespass against us as we have also died (to self) and now live by faith in Christ as we walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

 

[for_his_glory]

And to be able to forgive when people try to make it right.

Even if they do not make it right we still have to forgive so God will also forgive our trespasses.

 

[stovebolts]

Even if they do not make it right we still have to forgive so God will also forgive our trespasses.

While I agree, I think there is a bigger picture with a bigger reward. When we forgive others, we actually start wishing the best for them. Really, forgiveness sets us free from the wrongs committed against us.

Forgiveness isn't always easy... It's hard and often goes against our nature. But God gave us an example through His Son who shows us the way. Father, please forgive them... Because they really don't know what they are doing.

Sometimes we need to get past our own hurts and realize people just don't understand, I mean, really understand what they are doing.

But this person intended to hurt me! Yeah, Jesus understands that because it was the intent of the religious elite to have him killed, yet Jesus said they don't really know what they are doing.

It can take years to work through the pain others have put us through, but those years should be focused on learning how to forgive, because if you can't forgive, you will never find peace on the matter. It will haunt you till the day you die and if it takes root, it will cause you bitterness, and there is no joy in being bitter.

So set yourself free, and work at learning how to forgive and you'll start to truly understand what it means to be free in Christ, for Jesus was perfected through suffering, and so will we.

Besides, Jesus said if we want to follow Him, then we need to pick up our crosses.. So, consider it pure joy when you encounter trials and tribulation in your life because that is when sometimes God can do His best work in you.

And the truth will set you free.

.02

P.s. forgiveness doesn't mean your a doormat or somebodies whipping boy.

 

[for_his_glory]

While I agree, I think there is a bigger picture with a bigger reward. When we forgive others, we actually start wishing the best for them. Really, forgiveness sets us free from the wrongs committed against us.

Forgiveness isn't always easy... It's hard and often goes against our nature. But God gave us an example through His Son who shows us the way. Father, please forgive them... Because they really don't know what they are doing.

Sometimes we need to get past our own hurts and realize people just don't understand, I mean, really understand what they are doing.

But this person intended to hurt me! Yeah, Jesus understands that because it was the intent of the religious elite to have him killed, yet Jesus said they don't really know what they are doing.

It can take years to work through the pain others have put us through, but those years should be focused on learning how to forgive, because if you can't forgive, you will never find peace on the matter. It will haunt you till the day you die and if it takes root, it will cause you bitterness, and there is no joy in being bitter.

So set yourself free, and work at learning how to forgive and you'll start to truly understand what it means to be free in Christ, for Jesus was perfected through suffering, and so will we.

Besides, Jesus said if we want to follow Him, then we need to pick up our crosses.. So, consider it pure joy when you encounter trials and tribulation in your life because that is when sometimes God can do His best work in you.

And the truth will set you free.

.02

P.s. forgiveness doesn't mean your a doormat or somebodies whipping boy.

Not only wishing the best for them, but to also pray they will be drawn to Christ. Forgiveness used to be hard for me to do, but now it comes very easy and quickly.

 

[stovebolts]

Not only wishing the best for them, but to also pray they will be drawn to Christ. Forgiveness used to be hard for me to do, but now it comes very easy and quickly.

amen!
I struggled with it for many years, but it's nice when God finally opens your heart to forgive another. Sometimes it just takes a bit longer for it to get from your head to your heart.