Females As Leaders/Pastors Of Males In Evangelical Churches.

[JAG ..]

Females As Leaders/Pastors Of Males In Evangelical Churches.
By JAG
Jan 4, 2022


"I like the freedom to be a preacher", said the Reverend. Henrietta Smartr Thangod,
senior pastor of the Rebellious Saints Evangelical Mega-Church.


"What about sodomy", asked the Rev. Deal Infacts, "do you like sodomy?"


"What?"


"Well", replied the Rev. Deal Infacts, "the same reasons used to empower you to be
a leader of men, women, and children in Evangelical churches, are also used to
empower homosexuals to be leaders of men, women, and children in Evangelical
churches."


{When she heard that, the Rev. Henrietta Smartr Thangod got her shorts in a twist
and stared coldly at Rev. Deal Infacts.)


"It was not an accident", continued the Rev. Deal Infacts, "that the Women's Empowerment Movement came BEFORE the Homosexual Empowerment Movement."


"Explain?"


"The two 'freedoms' go hand in hand", replied Rev. Deal Infacts, "Your Rebellious Saints Evangelical Mega-Church does not obey the Bible when it says women are not to preach (1 Tim. 2:11-14 and 1 Cor. 14:34-38) so there is no reason for your Rebellious Saints Evangelical Mega-Church to obey the Bible when it says for members of your church not to perform homosexual sex acts (Romans 1:24-27 and 1 Cor. 6:9-11 and 1 Tim. 1:8-11) ~ and when it says for them not to preach or pastor Christian churches if they do perform homosexual sex acts . . .


. . . [Rev. Deal Infacts paused for a moment and then added] :


No Christian denomination will embrace homosexuals as pastors of their churches without first changing their minds about women being pastors of their churches."


The Rev. Deal Infacts continued . . .


"You becoming the pastor of the Rebellious Saints Evangelical Mega-Church makes it easy for homosexuals to become pastors of other Rebellious Saints Evangelical churches. Step one, first comes women as preachers in Evangelical Christian Churches. Step two, next comes homosexual preachers and pastors in Evangelical Christian churches.


And remember Rev. Henrietta Smartr Thangod, you helped make that become a reality."


"Not all homosexuals who are members in good standing in Evangelical churches practice sodomy", smirked the Rev. Henrietta Smartr Thangod.


"That is correct", replied Rev. Deal Infacts, "but the Evangelical LGBTQ Movement within Evangelical churches has a message for the children in those churches and their message to the children is that sodomy is normal and good moral behavior for married homosexual couples in Evangelical churches ~ that sodomy is not wrong. They never condemn sodomy as a sin."

Continued Rev. Deal Infacts . . .


"In fact that is the message the LGBTQ Movement within Evangelical churches
delivers to everybody ~ to teens, to Fathers, to Mothers, to Families ~ and you Rev.
Henrietta Smartr Thangod, helped along, to some extent, Evangelicalism's LGBTQ
Movement within Evangelical churches to put their pro-sodomy message into the
minds of everybody in those Evangelical churches."


The Rev. Icanplay Thisgamealso had been listening to the ongoing conversation, and
he now spoke:


"The Apostle Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, clearly and boldly said that
women are forbidden to preach or pastor churches." (1 Tim. 2:11-14 and 1 Cor. 14:34-38)


"Harrumph", sneered the Rev. Henrietta Smartr Thangod, "Paul is not Jesus, and Jesus
told me to preach."


"No He did not," replied the Rev. Icanplay Thisgamealso, "I talked to Jesus just this morning and Jesus told me to tell you, that you misunderstood what He told you. Jesus told me to tell you that He said for you not to preach."


"If the Rev. Henrietta Smartr Thangod can get special revelation from Jesus, so can the Rev. Icanplay Thisgamealso", observed Rev. Deal Infacts.


At this point the Rev. Deal Infacts said to Rev. Henrietta:


"In your world, according to the way you interpret the Bible, maybe Jesus did not really die for our sins. The same Bible that says Jesus died for our sins also says that a woman is not permitted to teach or assume authority over a man (1 Tim. 211-14). You're on dangerous ground here Rev. Henrietta Smartr Thangod because the way you interpret the Bible John 3:16 may not actually be true."


"Listen", said the Rev. Henrietta Smartr Thangod, "our Rebellious Saints Evangelical Mega-Church is committed to Diversity and Multiculturalism."


"If all cultures", replied Rev. Deal Infacts, "are morally equivalent, as Multiculturalism affirms, then there is no moral difference in Sodom/Gomorrah and in AnyTown, USA ~ which makes glad that Old Serpent Egalitarianism. What do you think about that?"


"We", replied the Rev. Henrietta Smartr Thangod, "here at the Rebellious Saints Evangelical Mega-church, have joined the world of the 21st century. We are not extreamists, sexists, racists, xenophobes, or homophobes. We are in step with the world and we celebrate Diversity."


Rev. Deal Infacts replied:


"The Sodomites living in the ancient city of Sodom, if they could have known about Liberalism's celebration of Diversity, would have been tickled pink. The mayor of Sodom would have said, "America's liberal Rebellious Saints Evangelical Mega-Church wants to celebrate us, oh joy."


"Don't be so harsh with the good people of the ancient city of Sodom", replied the Rev. Henrietta Smartr Thangod, "they may all have been good Christian people at heart."


[]

Thoughts?




``

 

[JAG ..]

Read this one first:
Inside the Evangelical Fight Over Gay Marriage | Time
This one is the biggy
If you are an Evangelical, be prepared to be startled.
__________
Then later this one . . .
The strange decline of US evangelicalism (christiantoday.com)

JAG

 

[for_his_glory]

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them" (Genesis 1:27).

Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created" (Genesis 5:2).

It is interesting to note that God called both male and female, "Adam" in the day they were created. Adam means "man." Adam and Eve were created with God-ordained differences from each other, but together they made a full "man," or a complete picture of God Himself. There was perfection in their union. Their differences were not a source of discord or inequality, but a beautiful compliment to each other. Together, God gave them the task of overseeing His creation.

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth" (Genesis 1:28).

Notice that God gave the above commission to them both. There is no hint that there was anything but equal authority between man and woman as they existed in a sinless state. What changed things? In the next few chapters of Genesis, we find that sin entered the heart of Adam and Eve. The result was a temporary curse placed upon both man and woman, which would affect the whole earth.

This curse has affected all aspects of creation, from the ground itself (infested with weeds and thorns) to human relationships. (I say temporary, because in Christ this curse is removed)

Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Within God's own nature we find these same qualities. Both men and women are to become like Him as we are conformed to His image. Since this is true, there are times that under the unction of the Holy Spirit a woman should assert herself boldly. (This assertion, however, should not necessarily be toward others, but rather toward the enemy, Satan!) For men and women to become over comers they must have this boldness and authority over the devil. God still desires that His people rule and reign with Him. His intention is to qualify us for that position, whether we are male or female. "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen" (Revelation 1:6).

Even though "kings" is a masculine term, this is the ultimate destination He desires for all of His people. The Lord often uses both male and female terms to refer to both sexes. Women are to live in the "hidden man of the heart" (1 Peter 3:4). Both men and women in the church are referred to as "the bride of Christ." God has both a masculine and feminine nature. The mother heart of Jesus was evident as he prayed over Jerusalem.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" (Matthew 23:37).

Submission is considered to be a feminine trait. However, Jesus submitted to the cross under the direction of the Father. If we walk in the Spirit, we too will possess both the masculine aggressiveness and feminine submissiveness of God.

Both submissiveness and aggressiveness are God-given strengths. Yet, both can be perverted, so that we become submissive and aggressive in the wrong ways, with the wrong attitudes. Because these qualities are so misused and misunderstood by the world, they have become distasteful and despised. If aggression is frowned upon, submission is viewed in an even more negative light in western culture. We equate submission with weakness and lack of spirit. Nothing could be further from the truth. There was never a human being more submitted to God than Jesus Christ-- yet never was there one as completely resistant to the system of the world! It took extraordinary submissiveness and aggression for Jesus to overcome the world. For the Christian, whether we are male or female, He is our model. We are to possess His qualities and use them according to the needs around us.

 

[Hopeful]

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them" (Genesis 1:27).

Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created" (Genesis 5:2).

It is interesting to note that God called both male and female, "Adam" in the day they were created. Adam means "man." Adam and Eve were created with God-ordained differences from each other, but together they made a full "man," or a complete picture of God Himself. There was perfection in their union. Their differences were not a source of discord or inequality, but a beautiful compliment to each other. Together, God gave them the task of overseeing His creation.

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth" (Genesis 1:28).

Notice that God gave the above commission to them both. There is no hint that there was anything but equal authority between man and woman as they existed in a sinless state. What changed things? In the next few chapters of Genesis, we find that sin entered the heart of Adam and Eve. The result was a temporary curse placed upon both man and woman, which would affect the whole earth.

This curse has affected all aspects of creation, from the ground itself (infested with weeds and thorns) to human relationships. (I say temporary, because in Christ this curse is removed)

Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Within God's own nature we find these same qualities. Both men and women are to become like Him as we are conformed to His image. Since this is true, there are times that under the unction of the Holy Spirit a woman should assert herself boldly. (This assertion, however, should not necessarily be toward others, but rather toward the enemy, Satan!) For men and women to become over comers they must have this boldness and authority over the devil. God still desires that His people rule and reign with Him. His intention is to qualify us for that position, whether we are male or female. "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen" (Revelation 1:6).

Even though "kings" is a masculine term, this is the ultimate destination He desires for all of His people. The Lord often uses both male and female terms to refer to both sexes. Women are to live in the "hidden man of the heart" (1 Peter 3:4). Both men and women in the church are referred to as "the bride of Christ." God has both a masculine and feminine nature. The mother heart of Jesus was evident as he prayed over Jerusalem.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" (Matthew 23:37).

Submission is considered to be a feminine trait. However, Jesus submitted to the cross under the direction of the Father. If we walk in the Spirit, we too will possess both the masculine aggressiveness and feminine submissiveness of God.

Both submissiveness and aggressiveness are God-given strengths. Yet, both can be perverted, so that we become submissive and aggressive in the wrong ways, with the wrong attitudes. Because these qualities are so misused and misunderstood by the world, they have become distasteful and despised. If aggression is frowned upon, submission is viewed in an even more negative light in western culture. We equate submission with weakness and lack of spirit. Nothing could be further from the truth. There was never a human being more submitted to God than Jesus Christ-- yet never was there one as completely resistant to the system of the world! It took extraordinary submissiveness and aggression for Jesus to overcome the world. For the Christian, whether we are male or female, He is our model. We are to possess His qualities and use them according to the needs around us.

Like Paul wrote i 1 Tim 2:12-14, Adam was formed first, and the woman sinned first.
The order was established from the very beginning.
I agree with the Lord's apostle.

 

[for_his_glory]

Like Paul wrote i 1 Tim 2:12-14, Adam was formed first, and the woman sinned first.
The order was established from the very beginning.
I agree with the Lord's apostle.

Furthermore, if Paul believed that all women should never teach or speak in church, why does he commend many women who did just that.


1 Corinthians 14 is all about prophecy, tongues and orderly worship in the church. Paul was giving a call to order in the church as the women were disorganized during the service with their endless chatter asking questions.


In this chapter Paul is giving instruction on how to give prophecy and use tongues in an orderly fashion. Paul was not telling women that they were not allowed to teach men, but to keep quite in the church with there disruptive chatter and questions that interrupted the service. They were told to hold their questions until they got home and ask their husband. They were never told they could not teach men.

(sorry could not delete the bold print for some reason)


If God did not approve of women leading or instructing men then why was one third of Israel's first leadership team Female? God said to the prophet Micah "I sent Moses to lead you, also Aaron and Miriam, Micha 6:4.


Why was Deborah the chief prophet and judge over Israel for four decades? Why was Huldah the most accurate prophet in Israel and why did God use her to instruct the king? Why did Anna prophesy at the Temple and Priscilla instruct Apollos? Why was Chloe a house church leader, Phoebe a deacon and and Junia (yes a woman) an apostle.​

 

[Golgotha]

Furthermore, if Paul believed that all women should never teach or speak in church, why does he commend many women who did just that.


1 Corinthians 14 is all about prophecy, tongues and orderly worship in the church. Paul was giving a call to order in the church as the women were disorganized during the service with their endless chatter asking questions.


In this chapter Paul is giving instruction on how to give prophecy and use tongues in an orderly fashion. Paul was not telling women that they were not allowed to teach men, but to keep quite in the church with there disruptive chatter and questions that interrupted the service. They were told to hold their questions until they got home and ask their husband. They were never told they could not teach men.

(sorry could not delete the bold print for some reason)​

Best read that in the KJV

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

In context, this is a commandment from the Lord for women not to teach as the word of God will only be manifested thru the men in church. More scripture for confirmation.

1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

God told Adam not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good & evil before He created Eve. So that was why the devil went to Eve was to doubt God's words that she heard from Adam and not actually hearing it from God. What offended God was that man harkened unto the woman's word rather than God's words for why women were cursed to be submissive to the man among other things.

Do not women complain about men for how women are doing everything? In this, they ought to avoid seeking any teaching position or leadership in the assembly. and focus on the Lord ministering thru them outside the assembly as in local outreach ministry from their homes in having Bible studies and prayer groups meetings, & fellowship.

They could arrange for use of the church for those things on days when the men are not using it, but if you consider this for how they would be valuable in the eyes of the Lord & the assembly is by how the Lord would use them to keep the members engaged and wanting to come to church for fellowship & worship.

One never knows if women took on that ministry, maybe church membership would not be dropping so much. It would be a like a community of believers when we recognize how and why the Lord would have women's roles outside the assembly.

If God did not approve of women leading or instructing men then why was one third of Israel's first leadership team Female? God said to the prophet Micah "I sent Moses to lead you, also Aaron and Miriam, Micha 6:4.


Why was Deborah the chief prophet and judge over Israel for four decades? Why was Huldah the most accurate prophet in Israel and why did God use her to instruct the king? Why did Anna prophesy at the Temple and Priscilla instruct Apollos? Why was Chloe a house church leader, Phoebe a deacon and and Junia (yes a woman) an apostle.​

JAG ..

There is a difference between serving the Lord in the church in teaching and in ministry which is forbidden of women to do, but when God uses women, it is in outward ministry.

 

[JAG ..]

Strong.
The Evangelical Church is caving in like warm butter
on the social issues, first with women preachers then with
homosexual preachers (as my OP demonstrates)

Best Regards.

JAG

``

 

[for_his_glory]

Best read that in the KJV

Not being sarcastic, but best to understand the full context and the history of Corinth in why Paul made such a statement. Just sayin.

 

[Northman]

Junia (yes a woman) an apostle.

You have got to be kidding

 

[Christ_empowered]

ugh. This is one of "those" topics...we can all talk -at- each other as much as we please...I doubt anyone will come away with a new perspective, or even an inclination to rethink one's initial position. and yet...

here I am, lol.

as a (celibate! thank God!) gay male, I have to say...I've often sympathized with females in positions of church leadership, females wanting to open up the hierarchy to females. No, being a (again, not active) gay male does not equal being female, but when gay happens, it usually (read: almost always) involves a softer sort of male-ness. That's why many, many heterosexual men can spot a gay male fairly quickly, from a young age. It is what it is...

with that side note out of the way, its like this: -sigh- no matter how much I may want to recreate the world to be what I want it to be and/or what the women with faith and talents want it to be...

the world is what it is. even with all this ridiculous gender deconstruction and such going on, at the core -- where the rubber hits the road, basically -- life carries on pretty much the same. in all likelihood, a lot of this gender deconstruction and such is more about social decay than anything else...its not as if human nature is being fundamentally altered by trendy use of "non-binary" and such among celebrities and "edgy" intellectuals, etc. moving on...

the point there is that I have never.ever.seen a female-led congregation do well. It isn't that the female in charge is not competent or that the men are sexist or weak or...blah blah blah...

just...doesn't happen. I have seen the occasional -female elder- do OK, here and there...but even then, female elders are the exception to the rule, and I still think of them of exceptions that tend to prove the rule. and then...

ok, so...I think of it like this...many of the NT rules, commandments...in addition to being in there because they are part of the Truth of the Good News, are in there because they reflect godly ways of dealing with...the world we live in, this side of heaven. for example...

marriage rules. mutual submission (I think of this as mutual regard and "thinking more of the other person," etc.), with the male as the family head. Its 2022, right? Right...

so, I look to my parents' marriage. mama's fully retired from a high stress job, doing volunteer work. dad's semi-retired. by God's grace, they've been blessed with more resources and such, and I've somehow been spared, forgiven, and we're a family again. so, I can see their marriage, as an odd sort of "insider" (adult offspring, only child, "Schizophrenia" label, all that), and...

basically, they leave each other free to do as they please, but dad has settled into more of a leader with lots of input from mama. nothing abusive or weird, just...honestly, I think "the way the world works," men tend to be the head of most heterosexual unions, anyway. its a question of how they use or abuse that position of authority that makes a -big- difference. In Christ, men and women are given guidelines on how to make the best of their God-given attributes, so hopefully the union will last and the offspring will be more likely to be OK.

churches are breaking the rules all over the place. divorced and remarried men with additional moral issues are heading up big churches. men who crave power and money and prestige will sell out sound doctrine for trendy clothes, bleached hair, rock music and more fame, power, and fortune. happens. so...

Its not that the women leading a church is --the-- only problem facing Protestant churches today. I just...I don't see how one can have female ministers, etc. in face of both the Scriptural rules against it and the real world consequences.

and that is all. clearly, my (rambling) opinion on this won't change anyone's mind or anything, but...yeah. Internet, we're all free to type in as we feel inclined, I suppose.

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

Rom 16:7
Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

So it is asserted that Junia is female - and "of note among the apostles" which I would take to BE an apostle but some say "they were noted BY the apostles"

so it's a real sticky wicket - but I am for Junia being female, kinsman, and fellow prisoner of Paul

Some say Junia was a male.

And Phobe the Deaconess carried epistle to Rome.

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

Well, people will say Phobe is just SERVANT not DEACONESS - there is enough splain-away to keep the wimmin down - God forbid a woman would hold a church office

 

[jasonc]

if a man desires to be an elder, he must be a man of one wife.

well its kinda a limit there,

 

[Luminous_Rose]

I'm not against women pastors, preachers, evangelists, etc. nor do I find that unbiblical. Paul himself never said it wasn't unbiblical for a woman to preach and those who believe so I don't think know the scripture here (history, audience, Paul's writing style, the exchanges of plural and singular nouns, etc.) in their entirety.

What I do find unbiblical is when the church decides to conform to what the world wants (accepting and even encouraging things like homosexuality among other worldly issues)- it's not the church after a point, it's a worldly function on a mission to make it all happy and feel-good, which is not what Christianity is all about. When a church is called "Rebellious Saints Evangelical Mega-Church" - it makes me raise an eyebrow.

 

[Hopeful]

Furthermore, if Paul believed that all women should never teach or speak in church, why does he commend many women who did just that.​

For instance?

1 Corinthians 14 is all about prophecy, tongues and orderly worship in the church. Paul was giving a call to order in the church as the women were disorganized during the service with their endless chatter asking questions.​

Your proof that was the reason?

In this chapter Paul is giving instruction on how to give prophecy and use tongues in an orderly fashion. Paul was not telling women that they were not allowed to teach men, but to keep quite in the church with there disruptive chatter and questions that interrupted the service. They were told to hold their questions until they got home and ask their husband. They were never told they could not teach men.

Though you may be correct about the "chatter", there isn't anything written to prove it.
They were told they could not teach men in 1 Tim 2:12..."But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."
And the reason..."For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (1 Tim 2:13-14)

If God did not approve of women leading or instructing men then why was one third of Israel's first leadership team Female? God said to the prophet Micah "I sent Moses to lead you, also Aaron and Miriam, Micha 6:4.​

Did you see what happened to her?
Num 2:10..."And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous."
Exod 15:20 says she was a prophetess..."And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances."
There is nothing written forbidding women prophesying.

Why was Deborah the chief prophet and judge over Israel for four decades? Why was Huldah the most accurate prophet in Israel and why did God use her to instruct the king? Why did Anna prophesy at the Temple and Priscilla instruct Apollos? Why was Chloe a house church leader, Phoebe a deacon and and Junia (yes a woman) an apostle.​

As I said above, there is nothing written forbidding women from prophesying.
Let the women prophesy to the glory of God.
But to use that honor and privilege to infer leadership to women is never written of in the bible.

 

[Hopeful]

I'm not against women pastors, preachers, evangelists, etc. not do I find that unbiblical.

In spite of 1 Tim 2:12?

Paul himself never said it wasn't unbiblical for a woman to preach and those who believe so I don't think know the scripture here (history, audience, Paul's writing style, the exchanges of plural and singular nouns, etc.) in their entirety.

Again, 1 Tim 2:12.

What I do find unbiblical is when the church decides to conform to what the world wants (accepting and even encouraging things like homosexuality among other worldly issues)- it's not the church after a point, it's a worldly function on a mission to make it all happy and feel-good, which is not what Christianity is all about. When a church is called "Rebellious Saints Evangelical Mega-Church" - it makes me raise an eyebrow.

We can't adhere to only parts of what is written and still call ourselves The Church".

 

[Luminous_Rose]

In spite of 1 Tim 2:12?

Again, 1 Tim 2:12.

Absolutely!

Here is what 1 Timothy 2:12 NIV tells us:

I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.


---------------------------

But wait! There's more!

1 Timothy 2:9-14 NIV:

I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing. I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

----------------------------

(Remember that Paul was an educated Roman citizen and wrote like the philosopher's did. His format of writing is very much an A1, B1, C1, C2, B2, A2 type of format. Meaning, he'd make a point, make another point, then another, and then circle back around to those points.)

In the first paragraph, it is referencing all people. Peace and "quietness" can mean to be in compliance with the law rather than in rebellion against it. It isn't only the physical act of not talking.

Next paragraph, it mentions men specifically. It is possible that men of this time were arguing with one another rather than praising and worshiping God. Some people of this time also worshiped other god's by shouting loudly and wailing. It's possible that could also be why this was discouraged.

Then, down to women (see that this is plural - women), to dress modestly. Keep in mind, this is talking about churches that were surrounded by cultures of those worshiping gods and goddesses and some would adorn themselves to go to the temples or worship gods/goddesses. Such cults like that of Dionysus with cross dressing, drunkenness, orgies, and the like weren't uncommon. Some prostitutes of the time would also adorn their hair ornaments of some kind and this could possibly send a confusing message coming to a Christian congregation in this type of dress.

What gets more interesting is that further in the scripture, it's not women anymore, it's "a woman," so who is this talking about? This woman was said to be the woman of Ephesus. Women in this day and age were not privileged enough to have an education. Women were often looked down upon as less than human, basically worthless, like an animal, and were not often taught.

This is discouraging a false teacher within the church - a woman that may not even fully understood that she was saying things that weren't correct and possibly leading others astray. Many pastors would discourage that kind of thing in their own congregations today as we can agree that false teaching is harmful.

Instead, Paul does something awesome! He gives this woman an opportunity to learn, but in order to do so, she needs to be quiet in order to learn and that way isn't spreading more false teaching.

This was gracious of Paul considering others like Philetus, Alexander, and Hymenaeus (men that were knowingly doing what was considered wrong).

A little further on, it makes an interesting mention of Adam and Eve, which is a story that most Christians easily understand. However, this isn't a war against women, it is an example of another woman that was deceived that a group of believers could understand.

These words were for a specific place in time for a specific situation.

There were so many amazing women in The Holy Bible that had Biblical authority. Miriam, Deborah the judge and prophetess, Priscilla, Phoebe the deaconess (whom Paul commended/stood with - why would Paul stand with Phoebe if this was wrong in God's eyes?), Chloe, etc. etc. Why would God have place them in The Holy Bible in the positions he did if this was solely against God's word? There's no better way for a church to be vulnerable for spiritual attack than to mute all the women of the congregation.

Further where Phoebe is concerned, the Corinthians seemed to have a status obsession and Paul was refusing to play their game. Paul rebuked those who commend themselves and said it is the Lord who commends. Paul stood with Phoebe. This is a pretty clear sign that Phoebe had spiritual authority. It's hard to believe that Paul would contradict himself.

I understand this is a traditional belief for many churches and a lot of them still stick beside it, but in my personal experience and belief, it's spiritually unsound to believe that women shouldn't teach in a church or have any spiritual authority.

 

[Golgotha]

Not being sarcastic, but best to understand the full context and the history of Corinth in why Paul made such a statement. Just sayin.

JAG .. Luminous_Rose Hopeful jasonc DancesWithGnostics Christ_empowered Northman Titus Who Me hawkman

When in aligning that with the epistle in Timothy, if women sought to be in the Lord's ministry, per His words, it is in outreach ministry which the scripture has given examples regarding women as used by the Lord. Their sights should not be in the assembly.

This forum should be considered as an outreach ministry; not an actual assembly where if a brother is caught in a trespass, he is to be corrected privately, if not then with 2 or 3 witnesses to establish the word of correction, and if not repenting there, then before the whole assembly to excommunicate whereby the members of the church are to even shun fellowship with him in public until he repents before the whole church so everybody knows to let him back in and no longer shun him in public either.

We cannot really do that here for why it cannot be an assembly when we do not all speak the same thing and I am not in agreement with this forum's Statement of Faith by that one line, even in principle because below is an apostate statement that lays groundwork for the supernatural to happen which also is apostasy.

"We believe that all believers need to be filled and empowered by the Holy Spirit to live a godly life and to be bold in our witness for the Lord."

I believe all believers are always Spirit-filled since salvation and all we really "need" the Lord Jesus Christ's help not to sow the works of the flesh but looking to Him daily to help us lay aside every weight & sin ( Hebrews 12:1-2 ), thereby trusting Him to finish His work in us ( Philippians 1:6 ) as the fruits of righteousness ( the fruits of the Spirit ) are manifested by Jesus Christ ( Philippians 1:11 ).

I understand that not all believers apply that line as looking for the supernatural phenomenon for this continual filling, but in principle, but even in principle, it is not Biblically sound and it lays the foundation for when the supernatural happen, believers will go astray in apostasy because of that principle & so that principle is apostasy.

It is fortunate that this forum does not need a requirement to adhere to that statement of faith to be a member and does invite discussions that does not adhere to the statement of faith for believes to prove or reprove in their walk with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

So in this forum, members are not really speaking the same thing nor holding to the same judgment for us to be considered an assembly & fellowship, but an outreach ministry where women can be used by the Lord in correcting others by His words.

 

[Golgotha]

eddif tagged too late to read post # 18 above

Edited in time ---> You are welcome to this topic but I had meant to tag Edward so he may better understand my position towards other believers in this forum that are not of the same mind nor same judgment in the forum. FYI

I do need the Lord's help in obeying His commandment in 2 Thessalonians 3:1-15

 

[D-D-W]

You have got to be kidding

Why?? Junia is a Latin (Roman) female name.

Romans 16:7 KJV
Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.