For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

[Hopeful]

Do you think that a person can believe whatever they want about Jesus and still be saved, when it is in his name alone—the sun total of his person and work—by which we are saved?

JWs believe Jesus is a mere creature. Mormons that he is the literal offspring of the Father procreating with his wife. Others believe he is the Father. Some believe his physical body was an illusion. Christians believe Jesus is God but not the Father, being eternally begotten of the same substance. All of them can say they believe Jesus is the Son of God and that he was crucified.

Yet, Jesus claimed to be the I Am, even saying that unless a person believed he was the I Am, they would die in their sins (John 8:24). Paul reiterates this in Rom 10:9-13.

So, do you really think that people can believe whatever they want about Jesus—the central person of the entirety of Scripture, in whose name alone we have salvation—even contradicting what the Bible reveals about who he is, and still be saved?

You forgot to mention that Jesus was the Word, before He took on flesh.

 

[Hopeful]

This is an interesting question. What "precisely" are you saying one must believe about Christ to be saved? What is the list of facts one must believe to be true if one is to be saved? (with scripture verses) Or, is there a list of facts that save? Supposedly, something simple enough that a child could understand I presume. I have a list of facts... I'm curious to compare with yours.


A person with a third group said the critical doctrine was to believe that Jesus is God. I asked what Scripture that was based on and was given John 8:24 “for you will die in your sins unless you believe that I am he.” This popular interpretation ignores the fact that (1) when Jesus was subsequently asked who he is, he called himself “the Son of Man” (John 8:25-28), and (2) the similarity between this verse and Exodus 3:14 exists only in the Latin and certain English translations, but not in the Greek nor in the Hebrew. So even though Jesus is God, he was not saying “You must believe that I am Yahweh to be saved.”
Rick Brown https://www.ijfm.org/PDFs_IJFM/17_4_PDFs/02_Brown_Beliefs_hw.pdf

I believe one fact that must be believed to be saved is that Christ is God. So far the only two verses I believe confirm this are: John 20:31 and 1 John 5:31 ... John 8:24 is a maybe


To some degree, YES. IMO one could believe Christ has 6 toes on His left foot and assuming this to be incorrect, I think that person would still be saved. Again, what is your list of MUST BE BELIEVED TO BE SAVED.

Aside: I'll skip the list of things that cannot be believed/done that nullify salvation (keep it simple *giggle*) Skip possible necessity of WORKS too. K.I.S.S. rule
atpollard Iconoclast ... just an FYI in case your interested in the answer ... or maybe you want to chime in

I couldn't find a 1 John 5:31?

 

[Fastfredy0]

"Jesus is Lord" ... We are not "saying and meaning" just anything. Jesus IS LORD. That covers TWO parts. First, Jesus is THE LORD (capital L) meaning that Jesus is GOD. You must "say it and mean it". Second part, Jesus is OUR LORD ... "we are not our own, we are purchased with a price". The line that those at the end of Romans 1 were unwilling to cross was to surrender control to God. "I am not master of my own destiny" is the most unnatural thing for a fallen man to think, let alone "say and mean". So the call is nothing less than complete surrender to Jesus Christ as your MASTER and your GOD ... that is what you must "say and mean". JESUS IS LORD! (a powerful statement).

Really liked your answer.
I might like to add that we are not saved by works; but works are a result of faith and faith includes trust which leads to obedience.

Faith includes

1. something (facts) to be known,
2. agreed to - Faith without evidence is irrational or impossible.
3. trusted upon - We only believe/trust something to the extent that we act upon it (obey it).

....so getting to point #1 ... what are the facts to be known for salvation. I've got 2 sure things

1. belief that the work of Christ has saved a person
2. belief that Christ is God (but then would could get deeper into the weeds and say what facts must be known of God)

1 Corinthians 15:3-4 seem to point out one must believe:

1. Christ died
2. Christ was buried
3. Christ resurrected
4. Christ's resurrection was on the third day.

If one didn't believe or know Christ was resurrected on the 3 day would he be saved? If your answer is NO, then are you sure of the necessity of believe 1 thru 3?
Aside: I believe all 4 points, but is believing all 4 point needed for salvation? I don't think so.
Aside2: Hoping Free will give an opinion

The tough question is: what beliefs disqualify salvation ... but I will keep is relatively simple.

Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[gordon777]

Paul started out with step one, knowledge of the Lord who was crucified for us.
More steps followed.

All steps are preaching Christ crucified, and unto those which are called this is Christ, the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Those in Christ Jesus ( Crucified with Christ. Galatians 2:20.) have Christ made unto us wisdom and righteousness and sanctification and redemption, to glory in the Lord.



1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.



They that are Christ's ( hearing Christ crucified) have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

We glory only in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, as by Christ the world is crucified to us, and we are crucified to the world. ( it is all steps)



Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

 

[gordon777]

Our faith does not stand in the wisdom of men ( there is no wisdom there)

Our faith stands in the power of God ( of the crucifixion, to know the power of His resurrection, made conformable to HIs death and sufferings.)

This is determining to not know anything among others, but Jesus Christ and Him crucified. ( there are no other steps to believe and be saved from sin.)



1 Corinthians 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Philippians 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

 

[gordon777]

I might like to add that we are not saved by works; but works are a result of faith and faith includes trust which leads to obedience.

Faith includes

1. something (facts) to be known,
2. agreed to - Faith without evidence is irrational or impossible.
3. trusted upon - We only believe/trust something to the extent that we act upon it (obey it).

Jesus appeared to Paul, and told Paul, why He had appeared to Him, for the purpose to make Paul a minister, and a witness, to what he saw, and what Jesus would appear to him for.

Jesus would deliver Paul from the people, ( the Jews.) and from the Gentiles, who Jesus was now sending Paul to. ( this opens the eyes of those people, from the blinding of satan, to the seeing with the Lord, to receive forgiveness of sins and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith which is in Christ.)

Paul tells Agrippa ( of the Gentiles) how he was not disobedient unto the Heavenly vision, ( of Christ appearing and speaking.) but showed the Jews, and then the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God and do works meet for repentance. ( for salvation and obedience as Paul shows.)

The Gospel Paul preaches of Jesus Christ, is according to the revelation of the mystery, kept secret since the world began, now made manifest by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations ( Jew and Gentile) for the obedience of faith. ( Paul was not disobedient to the Heavenly vision, but preached to the Jews, then Gentiles, as commanded by Christ to do.)



Acts 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.


Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.



If Paul believed the Heavenly vision, and did not act upon it, there is no salvation, as there would be nothing right, in that belief. But Paul was not disobedient to it, but obedient, and did as commanded, which is works meet for repentance as Paul preached also. ( for the obedience of faith.)

Faith without works is dead, vain man.

Abraham was justified when he did as commanded by the Lord. ( as we hear Paul did as commanded/was obedient, not disobedient, to not have dead faith.)

Faith goes with works, to make faith perfect. This fulfils the scripture, ( or it is empty, dead and vain without it) and we see how a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.



James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[Cooper]

Does anyone notice, if you remove three threads on theology, 1: trinitarian, 2. JW's, 3. Baptisms, it is entirely three separated sects that are in society, and that separate belief is brought to theology, only to be endlessly debated on, instead of any attempt to stop the divisions that already exist in society, they are brought only for more division, strife and debate ?


It cant be justified, why not speak about justification, by believing in one name, Jesus Christ, no other name to know that matters, and any baptism is the same Spirit of Christ, there is no discussion for theology, but Jesus Christ and Him crucified.



1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

I agree. Eventually, after much talk and debate, these errors weave their way into our thoughts and minds, and become an internal part of Christianity.
.

 

[gordon777]

I think you guys do not understand yet, what has happened where you are discussing your things, it is ended, there is either consent to the wholesome words of Jesus Christ, or denial.

 

[gordon777]

I agree. Eventually, after much talk and debate, these errors weave their way into our thoughts and minds, and become an internal part of Christianity.
.

Yes they corrupted all things, but it was meant to be, or the end cant come until the falling away.

But now, as it is the end, a last testimony is given for us all ( including for me) to not follow those ways any more.



Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

1 Corinthians 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

 

[Cooper]

Because to say that a discussion on the Trinity "can't be justified" but then also say that we should "speak about justification, by believing in one name, Jesus Christ, no other name to know that matters" and that "there is no discussion for theology, but Jesus Christ and Him crucified," is to just beg the question.

Either who the Bible reveals Jesus to be actually matters and needs to be discussed, or it doesn't matter who the Bible reveals Jesus to be and then discussion of being justified through believing in him and his death is pointless. We simply cannot believe that the central figure of the entirety of Scripture, in whose name and work alone we have salvation, can be whoever or whatever we want and still be saved.

"Who do you say that I am?" is the most important question we must answer, and that necessarily leads to discussing the deity of Jesus, which leads to the Trinity.

What begins as a harmless activity, like the occasional flutter on the horses, the occasional cigarette, the odd pint at the local pub, can end up destroying people.
.

 

[Cooper]

Do you think that a person can believe whatever they want about Jesus and still be saved, when it is in his name alone—the sun total of his person and work—by which we are saved?

JWs believe Jesus is a mere creature. Mormons that he is the literal offspring of the Father procreating with his wife. Others believe he is the Father. Some believe his physical body was an illusion. Christians believe Jesus is God but not the Father, being eternally begotten of the same substance. All of them can say they believe Jesus is the Son of God and that he was crucified.

Yet, Jesus claimed to be the I Am, even saying that unless a person believed he was the I Am, they would die in their sins (John 8:24). Paul reiterates this in Rom 10:9-13.

So, do you really think that people can believe whatever they want about Jesus—the central person of the entirety of Scripture, in whose name alone we have salvation—even contradicting what the Bible reveals about who he is, and still be saved?

It turns them away from the truth. People are easily led.
.

 

[Cooper]

That is pretty difficult to do as most modern people do not want to think about why they believe as they do. They put up walls against anything that challenges their chosen view.

They would rather follow the things of the world, the easy path, rather than the things of God.
.

 

[gordon777]

Yes cooper, we consent to the wholesome words of Christ, or we deny them in pride, debate, contention, strife, envy, scorn, all are works of the flesh/non salvation is gained from them.

Peace, love joy, are fruits of the Spirit, they end all strife, because it is shameful to carry it on any longer in the name of Jesus Christ on this or any other forum that says it is Christian.


1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

 

[Cooper]

I thought you said you were determined to know nothing save Jesus Christ and him crucified?

It cannot be avoided here.
.

 

[Cooper]

Do you think that a person can believe whatever they want about Jesus and still be saved, when it is in his name alone—the sun total of his person and work—by which we are saved?

JWs believe Jesus is a mere creature. Mormons that he is the literal offspring of the Father procreating with his wife. Others believe he is the Father. Some believe his physical body was an illusion. Christians believe Jesus is God but not the Father, being eternally begotten of the same substance. All of them can say they believe Jesus is the Son of God and that he was crucified.

Yet, Jesus claimed to be the I Am, even saying that unless a person believed he was the I Am, they would die in their sins (John 8:24). Paul reiterates this in Rom 10:9-13.

So, do you really think that people can believe whatever they want about Jesus—the central person of the entirety of Scripture, in whose name alone we have salvation—even contradicting what the Bible reveals about who he is, and still be saved?

People who get caught up in the cults you mention, become the lost sheep we read about in the Bible.
.

 

[gordon777]

So who consents to the wholesome words of Christ on this forum so far, ( for peace and simplicity in Christ.) and who continues on the debate, strife, disputes anyway. ( confusion in the subtil serpent.)

Obey strife or obey peace, there is no mixing of the two together any longer on tis forum, without it being well and truly witnessed for all.



2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Galatians 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,



Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

James 3:16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

 

[Cooper]

When a man makes a claim that scripture describes him personally, he ought to at least live up to
it or try to do so or not make the claim in the first place. Doesn’t matter what else is said except that it shows the claim us untrue.

We try to live up to the precepts of scripture, but there are so many obstacles that we can stumble over, we don't need stumbling stones introduced into our community.
.

 

[gordon777]

Believing in the heart to the righteousness of Jesus Christ crucified and risen, means we rise away from all strife and debate, so what is holding people back any longer, to remain in the strife that is ending soon, this world is gone.

We are not told to be slow to speak for nothing, so why wont people begin to believe this, and stop talking/participating in debate on this forum ?



Isaiah 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.

James 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.



What saves is belief that Christ crucified and rose, so we no longer are in wrath. We have to stop being in shame, ashamed. ( strife, contention, debate)

We have to abide in Christ, ( peace, no strife, debate) to have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. We have to know Christ is righteous, ( there is no righteousness in strife, scorn, debate, contention, and not simply consenting to the wholesome words of Christ.) to do righteousness, to be born of Him.

We have to stop our tongue and word, ( used for evil of hell. James 3:6.)and love in deed and in truth, to know we are o the truth to assure our hearts before Him. ( and not be ashamed doing shame until He comes, strife, contention as on this forum daily allowed and supported by the Admins all these years, or our heart is condemned.)



Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

 

[gordon777]

We try to live up to the precepts of scripture, but there are so many obstacles that we can stumble over, we don't need stumbling stones introduced into our community.
.

We do, or there is no end, we do not, if we did not want an evil world, but because it is an evil world, that is why it is to be melted, or it would be kept by God



2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:


2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

We try to live up to the precepts of scripture, but there are so many obstacles that we can stumble over, we don't need stumbling stones introduced into our community.
.

It would be more honest NOT to claim that a scripture describes us to the T.