For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

[Dorothy Mae]

They would rather follow the things of the world, the easy path, rather than the things of God.
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The christians are as bad as worldly people in this regard. It’s extremely common for them to ignore challenges to their faith rather than answer them (they’d have to think) or worse, call anyone challenging them a nasty name or, if they have power, delete challenges.

 

[Cooper]

It would be more honest NOT to claim that a scripture describes us to the T.

We none of us are perfect, far from it, but it helps if we keep our eyes on the Lord and not on the things of earth.
.

 

[Cooper]

The christians are as bad as worldly people in this regard. It’s extremely common for them to ignore challenges to their faith rather than answer them (they’d have to think) or worse, call anyone challenging them a nasty name or, if they have power, delete challenges.

We tend to grow in grace as we get older and get to know the Lord more deeply. God is gracious and will seek out the lost sheep. We need to keep praying that God will touch all our hearts and lives in His name. Amen.
.

 

[Cooper]

You see, I don't see Jesus saying, "I and the Father are not one, we are three.
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[Dorothy Mae]

We none of us are perfect, far from it, but it helps if we keep our eyes on the Lord and not on the things of earth.
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When we boast about how we are just like the descriptions in the Bible, our eyes are directly on us not at all on him. It’s more like “see how great I am?!”

 

[Fastfredy0]

Faith goes with works, to make faith perfect. This fulfils the scripture, ( or it is empty, dead and vain without it) and we see how a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

I think I agree with all you said. (you said a lot)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You see, I don't see Jesus saying, "I and the Father are not one, we are three.
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Jesus spoke the truth about himself. A man who takes a verse out of context that boasts that he’s personally determined to only know Jesus and him crucified and then writes reams about other matters concerning Jesus has not told the truth about himself. It would have been better but to
boast. By our words we will be legimately judged.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I think I agree with all you said. (you said a lot)

Certainly more than “Jesus Christ and him crucified.”

 

[Dorothy Mae]

We tend to grow in grace as we get older and get to know the Lord more deeply. God is gracious and will seek out the lost sheep. We need to keep praying that God will touch all our hearts and lives in His name. Amen.
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I know a LOT of believers who were more often walking in grace and faith when they were young.

 

[Cooper]

Jesus spoke the truth about himself. A man who takes a verse out of context that boasts that he’s personally determined to only know Jesus and him crucified and then writes reams about other matters concerning Jesus has not told the truth about himself. It would have been better but to
boast. By our words we will be legimately judged.

Yes, we are known by our words, and our deeds and more worrying still, Jesus knows our heart.
Remember as well, we can do good deeds while having an ulterior motive. And God knows.
.

 

[Cooper]

I know a LOT of believers who were more often walking in grace and faith when they were young.

That is worrying, we can backslide, or we might just grow cold from lack of fellowship. I used to say the more sticks on a fire, the brighter it burns. I'm in danger of doing that, because at nearly 80 years of age I don't get out much, so I come on the forums to share the love, and look what I get!
.

 

[Hopeful]

All steps are preaching Christ crucified, and unto those which are called this is Christ, the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Those in Christ Jesus ( Crucified with Christ. Galatians 2:20.) have Christ made unto us wisdom and righteousness and sanctification and redemption, to glory in the Lord.
1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
They that are Christ's ( hearing Christ crucified) have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
We glory only in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, as by Christ the world is crucified to us, and we are crucified to the world. ( it is all steps)
Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Yep.
The steps taken after believing Jesus died for our sins provide greater detail into Christ's death and resurrection.

 

[Hopeful]

We none of us are perfect, far from it, but it helps if we keep our eyes on the Lord and not on the things of earth.
.

If you are talking about math skills or golf scores I can agree that none of us are perfect.
But if you are talking about sinlessness, I don't agree.

 

[Cooper]

If you are talking about math skills or golf scores I can agree that none of us are perfect.
But if you are talking about sinlessness, I don't agree.

Apostasy?
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[Free]

... it would be seem to be a potentially eternity altering question that needs attention ... *soft smile*
...aside, as I believe God selected me and completely determines whether or not I will be saved so I feel safe that, even though I might not know the list, God has ensured I do know what I need to know and believe what I need to believe .... but for those that feel it is incumbent for them to believe this or that independent of God, the question is CRITICAL

You would think so. I'm a bit on the fence but certainly lean in the reformed direction, as we've previously discussed. I really like your statement that "even though I might not know the list, God has ensured I do know what I need to know and believe what I need to believe." I'll have to think about that further.

It is likely that a person who is saved will come to believe those things. And, it could be that a person who claims to be saved, but after years of "being a Christian" and having not come to believe the truth of those matters, isn't truly saved.

I don't know of any verse the correlates that belief with being saved or not ... give me one or two (I know there are lots of verses saying there is only one God ... but a verse saying one must believe that to be saved)
Aside: I believe there is only one God

I sure hope you do. :wink This guards against the belief that one can be a polytheist and still be saved. Perhaps it is better to think of this in the reverse--that one cannot be saved and believe in more than one God. I can't quite remember the philosophical arguments, but basically, for God to actually be God, he cannot be lacking in any one thing. And, if he is not lacking in any one thing, then there cannot be any other God. The only way for there to be more than one God, is that each God must be deficient in some way or entirely different one from the other. Much like the Greek gods.

So, this does speak to the nature of God, and, although I can't think of a verse which explicitly states that one must believe in only one God, it seems to me, at a minimum, to be underlying much of salvific thought in the Bible. It gets a bit more involved when we bring in the Trinity, but a passage like Rom 10:9-13 seems to require confession that Jesus is YHWH for salvation, which would imply the one God.

I was thinking of that... though 1 Cor. 15:1-4 ... 3 For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to [that which] the Scriptures [foretold], 4 and that He was buried, and that He was [bodily] raised on the third day according to [that which] the Scriptures [foretold], AMP
... technically, I would have said 1 Cor 15:12-23 would explain the logical necessity for Christ being raised in order to be saved and not necessarily the need to believe it.

It certainly is that, but there are also some, like JWs, believe that Jesus was raised spiritually, not physically.

Like, logically God needs to be eternal in order to save me, but I don't have to believe it to be saved.

This is a bit different because this says something about the nature of God. If God isn't eternal, for example, then he isn't a necessary being, he isn't self-existent, and must have been created by the actual God. When it comes to the nature of God, and Jesus, if the nature is wrong, the being or person is not the biblical one.

Anyways ..... verses 3 and 4 seem to point out one must believe:

1. Christ died
2. Christ was buried
3. Christ resurrected
4. Christ's resurrection was on the third day.

If one didn't believe or know Christ was resurrected on the 3 day would he be saved? If your answer is NO, then are you sure of the necessity of believe 1 thru 3?
Aside: I believe all 4 points, but is believing all 4 point needed for salvation?

You a 4 pointer? I don't think the number of days would matter, but just that he was raised. However, one shouldn't believe other than three days since Jesus said it would be three days, more than once.

The problem here is that if one doesn't believe that Christ died, was buried, and rose again, then it would suggest they don't understand the nature of the problem of man's rebellion against God and the utter sinfulness of their sin. It suggests that they believe they don't need a saviour.

... the Fastfredy version? ... tried to look it up and it doesn't exist... hope Rev. 22:18 doesn't apply to my mistake
... meant 1 John 5:13

I think you'll be okay. Yes, that would be another verse as well.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Thanks for responding. You have a large database and good communication skills .... and tend to agree with me which placates my ego *giggle*

I can't quite remember the philosophical arguments, but basically, for God to actually be God, he cannot be lacking in any one thing. And, if he is not lacking in any one thing, then there cannot be any other God.

I think the technical jargon is: “Beauty” means that God has everything desirable; “perfection” means that God doesn’t lack anything desirable. They are two different ways of affirming the same truth.
God is fully each of his perfections. Whatever God is, he is totally in his essence. If God is not fully and absolutely love, or fully and absolutely holy, or fully and absolutely good, then he is not fully and absolutely God.
God’s perfections qualify each other. Because God is each of his perfections in all his essence, then each of his perfections complements and qualifies each of his other perfections. For example his justice is a holy justice, and his love is a righteous love.
Arminian Viewpoint
“Something changes only because it lacks something else. So, a perfect being who lacks nothing must be devoid of potentiality, which means it must be pure actuality. [Arminianism] rejects pure actuality for God does receive our prayers and worship.” John Sanders Is Open Theism a Radical Revision or Miniscule Modification of Arminianism?

You know... I can't think of a verse that says God is "perfect". How can man define perfection of a transcendent being? On the hand, there are no verses suggesting an imperfection (giggle) ... assuming one interprets the verses correctly.

So, this does speak to the nature of God, and, although I can't think of a verse which explicitly states that one must believe in only one God, it seems to me, at a minimum, to be underlying much of salvific thought in the Bible.

If one thinks there is more than one God, then one worships multiple Gods, then one is worshiping at least one idol. I didn't get into the facets/idea of one beliefs that would nullify salvation ... but worshiping another God and therefore an idol definitely ranks high enough to possibly make the list of doctrines to nullify salvation.
* I still recall when I was 10ish asking my dad if Muslims and Christians worshiped the same God.... I got a BIG NO!*

passage like Rom 10:9-13 seems to require confession that Jesus is YHWH for salvation, which would imply the one God.

Believing Jesus is God, to me, is the only hard fact I am 90% sure is needed for salvation. John 20:31 and 1 John 5:13

This is a bit different because this says something about the nature of God. If God isn't eternal, for example, then he isn't a necessary being, he isn't self-existent, and must have been created by the actual God. When it comes to the nature of God, and Jesus, if the nature is wrong, the being or person is not the biblical one.

Agreed

You a 4 pointer? I don't think the number of days would matter, but just that he was raised. However, one shouldn't believe other than three days since Jesus said it would be three days, more than once.

Re: 1 Corinthians 15:3 For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received, that (1) Christ died for our sins according to [that which] the Scriptures [foretold], 4 and that (2) He was buried, and that (3) He was [bodily] raised on (4)the third day according to [that which] the Scriptures [foretold],
No, I do not one has to 'believe these 4 points' to be saved. My point is the verses 1 to 4 are about salvation and Paul goes on to list 4 facts of "importance" in regards to belief. God makes the rules and the verses point out important facts to be believed. Perhaps, "believe Christ was raised of the third day" is critical to salvation. I wouldn't think so, but I don't make the rules and these verses could be interpreted that all 4 facts MUST BE BELIEVED to be saved.
I don't think any of the 4 points is needed for salvation, though 3 of the points are critical to knowing the foundation of salvation.Ma

The problem here is that if one doesn't believe that Christ died, was buried, and rose again, then it would suggest they don't understand the nature of the problem of man's rebellion against God and the utter sinfulness of their sin. It suggests that they believe they don't need a saviour.

Agreed, but being ignorant to seem degree is not necessarily condemning. Although it might suggest they don't need a savior, that is not necessarily so. Gee, Muslims think they need saving and they don't believe the three points. I am not saying Muslims can be saved; rather, it is possible to believe you need saving and be ignorant of the Meritorious Cause (what action(s) merited salvation).
_________________________
Premise1: People in the O.T. were saved by FAITH
Premise2: The salvific facts (whatever they were) to be believed by O.T. saints varies from N.T. saints
Premise3: The Bible speak of varying degrees of faith Romans 14:1; Mark 9:24; Romans 12:6-8
Conclusion: Maybe the beliefs needed for salvation vary between various N.T. saints (Lord knows, if you ask 10 people for what must be done to be saved you will get 9 answers ... sure glad God does all the work and loses no one He choses, though that is a minority opinion)

Anyways ... my answer to the question: what is needed to be saved in a positive sense is:
Saving faith is the belief that: Jesus is God, Savior and Lord where:

1. God is ... this is difficult to define what must be believed about who God is in order to be saved ... hmmm … (John 20:31 I write these things to you that you might believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that by believing you may have life in His name. 1 John 5:13 I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.) 1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.​
2. Savior is the belief He has the ability to forgive sins and make us righteous thus qualifying one for heaven​
3. Lord is the one we trust; the effect of which is we obey, though imperfectly . Lord also implying His resurrection as one does not serve a dead person. Romans 10:9-10 and 1 Corinthians 15:1-4​

Going to soon ask what action(s) nullify (make impossible) salvation next maybe. Thanks for indulging me with your ideas.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

... it would be seem to be a potentially eternity altering question that needs attention ... *soft smile*
...aside, as I believe God selected me and completely determines whether or not I will be saved so I feel safe that, even though I might not know the list, God has ensured I do know what I need to know and believe what I need to believe .... but for those that feel it is incumbent for them to believe this or that independent of God, the question is CRITICAL

“Many will come to me in that day saying, “Lord, lord,” and I will say to them, “depart from me, I never knew you.”

Didn’t seem like God made sure they knew what they needed to know. As a matter of fact, I cannot recall a single promise from Him that He’s taken in that responsibility but recall that WE should study (learn) to show ourselves approved.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

That is worrying, we can backslide, or we might just grow cold from lack of fellowship. I used to say the more sticks on a fire, the brighter it burns. I'm in danger of doing that, because at nearly 80 years of age I don't get out much, so I come on the forums to share the love, and look what I get!
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Since we can’t chat over coffee or engage in small talk (deviate from the OP and W~P will get ja) all we have to exchange is thoughts. To some degree, the real person comes out. It’s often not pleasant. What people really are and what they think they are are often quite different. Not to mention that thinking about matters is becoming more rare. But one can learn a lot when one is willing to think about what one believes and why as well as what one doesn’t believe and why.

 

[Hopeful]

Apostasy?
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Obedience to God is not apostasy, nor is it apostasy to say it is possible to live without sin.
Look, God gave us the gift of repentance from sin so we can permanently turn from sin.
He made the way for us to kill the old man of the flesh and be reborn of God's seed.
A seed that cannot bring forth the devil's fruit.
He gives the Holy Ghost to those who will turn from sin.
And He gave us bible verses like 1 Cor 10:13..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
If one feels they will still offend God and neighbor after they have, 1. turned from sin, 2. crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, 3. been reborn of God's seed, 4. received the gift of the Holy Ghost, 5. and been given the reassurance that He will provide an escape from every temptation, it would seem they just don't love God with all their heart, strength, and mind.

 

[Cooper]

Obedience to God is not apostasy, nor is it apostasy to say it is possible to live without sin.
Look, God gave us the gift of repentance from sin so we can permanently turn from sin.
He made the way for us to kill the old man of the flesh and be reborn of God's seed.
A seed that cannot bring forth the devil's fruit.
He gives the Holy Ghost to those who will turn from sin.
And He gave us bible verses like 1 Cor 10:13..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
If one feels they will still offend God and neighbor after they have, 1. turned from sin, 2. crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, 3. been reborn of God's seed, 4. received the gift of the Holy Ghost, 5. and been given the reassurance that He will provide an escape from every temptation, it would seem they just don't love God with all their heart, strength, and mind.

You are not wrong, but for some reason I am reminded of the self-righteous Pharisees, King David and Bathsheba, and Paul's exhortation to keep our eyes on the goal while we run the race. More than anything else, I am reminded of the love of our heavenly Father, who cares for us and keeps us safe, in whom we put our trust, and that is what I will always do.
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