Fornication is still illegal

[Michael74]

He must be a good family leader, having children who cooperate with full respect. (If someone does not know how to lead the family, how can that person take care of God’s church?) 1 Timothy 3:4-5 NCV

Paul told Timothy to make sure that elders knew how to manage their households well, implying that not everyone did. I am aware that some parents do need help raising their children. New Christians in particular may need help, as well as those with unbelieving spouses. Nevertheless, the state of the nation makes it clear that the public school system is not the answer.

The church can help here. One example: some churches have had success with having older, established couples mentor younger couples. Some churches run Christian schools. Parents should seek churches that know how to help if they need help. Just make sure that the church is genuinely following the Lord before you entrust your children to them. Stay away from people who only pretend to be Christians.

 

[Sparkey]

"Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted." (1 Tim 1:8-11)

If we are speaking of laws that 'enact righteousness' or about laws that prohibit such things as fornication, where comes the objection, "Good luck with that!" Are we grasshoppers? Can there be any who oppose, if God is for us? The defeated Christian who can no longer lift his/her eyes to heaven is not the image we are to have for each other.

 

[jasonc]

Actually this supports my thesis, since they made the mistake of letting the public school system raise Tullian for part of his childhood.

I guess no way that any child should see movies.do sports.watch star trek.yeah trek even in 99 promoted sin.gay rights and fornication were promoted.it's hard but Jesus never said it was.he said the road was hard.America and the world is hedonistic.we can minimize their influence.I don't know of any promotion of drinking and smoking by the public schools.seriously Christian bubbles?tullian even says that is wrong.it's not the government's job to raise your child.you are.so what it reallly christ like in my town when the schools were segregated.black high schools?one of those still stands.my nephews went there for middle school.and so did i.it was the gifford high school.let's not assume Christians will be able to stop sin fully.I'm not against homeschooling.I encourage it but I also know that you aren't god and can't be everywhere and stop your kid from sinning.

 

[jasonc]

My church has a Christian preschool and is moving into k.but I know of one church who has a great school but is dying and ignores their youth group .a church can't be a school and a church with same tax exemptions and funding.you do pay for it.

 

[jasonc]

I never cursed much until I joined the army.I entered the military as a virgin
lost it im the military.my parents taught me to save myself.cursing wasn't tolerated
I can't blame them for my sinning

 

[Obadiah]

As with anything, extremism never seems to work out very well. Government can make laws against "fornication" and all kinds of other consensual immorality if they want to. That's their (and the voters) prerogative. But the problem is they don't work. We had those laws in our country, and as it seems still actually do in some states. So are we a "Godly" country today because we used to try to legislate someone's concept of morality? Or did it send us the opposite directions because those outside of Christianity got tired of being told what they can't do by self righteous church people who in secret were doing the same things just as much in their own private lives? Yes, it's true. The rate of the kind of things we are talking about here is just as high among church going people and those who were raised in the church as it is among those who do not go to church. The only difference is many of those who go to church lie and hide it while the secular public no longer sees as much need to lie about it. This hypocrisy is one huge reason this kind of legislation never works unless some kind of drastic measures are taken, such as in Muslim countries where women are put to death for these things if they are even just so much as accused without proof. (And notice the men are always free to do what they want, and even encouraged to do so.) There is no obedience out of reverence for God, only out of fear of an oppressive dictatorship. Is that what we want here? That's the only real alternative that has any teeth in it. I don't want to live under that kind of tyrannical system.

 

[Sparkey]

Obadiah, you bring up a good point and one that was touched on earlier by other contributors. There are some who neglect themselves; they are not of the 'good soil' type and the Good News is not rooted in them because they do not act on it. Instead of repenting and turning away from sin they go about telling others to do what they themselves have not done.

Your larger point (I hope I heard you correctly) that too many Christians are so in name only, as they do not depart sin and have little or no influence, is well made.

Or did it send us the opposite directions because those outside of Christianity got tired of being told what they can't do by self righteous church people who in secret were doing the same things just as much in their own private lives?

And there is yet another option. Somehow we have allowed our thinking to become boxed in so that either Christians are silent on moral issues or they are self righteous hypocrites. But where did we learn such thinking?? My thought is that it is not only okay for me to say, "Don't fornicate," it's my duty. Remaining silent was something that Adam tried when Eve was tempted. It didn't work then. It doesn't work today. But I'm not really trying to rally a bunch of 'Christian Soldiers' who go forth and speak against fornication. Instead, it is the Good News of Salvation that includes the ability of true repentance that needs to be declared.

Yes, it's true. The rate of the kind of things we are talking about here is just as high among church going people and those who were raised in the church as it is among those who do not go to church. The only difference is many of those who go to church lie and hide it while the secular public no longer sees as much need to lie about it.

There are indeed Christians who have taken a solid stance against sin and have repented from fornication. You, for instance. Right?

As far as the law goes, my main point was not emphasized or well made (yet). The title of the thread is that fornication is still illegal. It would be illegal even if all laws in every country were changed to the "mind your OWN business" theology that is so prevalent. It would be illegal because the highest authority has said it was against the law. God's law. That men already know His intent is clear. That they are in open rebellion is also clear. But does that mean we, as Christians, must need be silent? Is it really true that the only ones who preach against sin (including fornication specifically) are hypocrites? Really? I hope not.

Again, I do not suggest that we should put emphasis on stopping sin over the salvation message but only that we don't have to be and should not be silent on the issue. If somebody were to ask me to vote on the matter --> my heart is made up entirely. I've seen too much pain come from my own selfish actions of which I have lied about and called love. Is it not possible that that fornication is responsible for more pain and suffering than any other sin? Perhaps idolatry would exceed it, who can say?

When the Council of Jerusalem considered these matters in Acts 15 Peter asked, "Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?" But he was NOT speaking about fornication. We do need to be certain that we preach Jesus and the redemptive purpose of the cross and not the law, but that does not gag us and can not prohibit us from teaching that sexual sin is wrong. Look into your own life. I can't presume that you have (like me) fallen and been ensnared by that sin but certainly you know of many who have. Look at the pain and how much we need to simply say, "Don't do that because it hurts!"

 

[jasonc]

I was never suggesting silence.

 

[Deborah13]

If we are speaking of laws that 'enact righteousness' or about laws that prohibit such things as fornication, where comes the objection, "Good luck with that!" Are we grasshoppers?

I think I may be misunderstanding your post...but I'm bouncing off it anyway, with my thoughts...hope that is OK with you.....

I believe.....
Christians don't obey God because of laws written on stone. Christians obey God because HE has written HIS law on our hearts/in our spirits.
It is one thing to know right from wrong in ones mind, it's another for it to be written in the deepest part of ones spiritual being.
We don't obey man's laws, we obey God's laws.

The sin is fornication not living in the same house. This particular law is not to stop fornication, it is to say, that someone cannot live together opening announcing that they are fornicating.
"Good luck with that." is in reference to a law that cannot be enforced by man and will not be obeyed by man in general, any more than probation against alcohol or drugs were/are.
The Law written on stone/and in a book, given to Moses by God, did not stop Israel from sinning. They fornicated, they murdered their children, even though the penalty for those crimes was literal, physical death in very horrible, torturous ways.
People don't believe man, they didn't believe Moses or many prophets, man is no different today.

This law says, we know you are going to do it, but we want you to hide it. Like that will save our nation.
God will judge a people whether their sin is openly displayed or hidden in dark secret places.
I don't see one example in the Bible were God spared a temporal nation because of that nation having God's Law written down and enforced by men.
2Ch 7:14 and My people on whom My name is called be humbled, and pray, and seek My face, and turn back from their evil ways, then I--I hear from the heavens, and forgive their sin, and heal their land.
Their laws didn't need to be changed, they were a theocracy. They had to actually 'turn away from evil' whether it was done openly or hidden in dark secret places.

Which covenant is better, the old or the new?
The only solution that I can see, is God Himself changing man's heart. What do we do.....preach the Gospel and set the example of what God looks like. If we don't see God's nature in the light of the Gospel message, we will not emulate the true nature of God.

 

[Kenny_ms]

I believe.....
Christians don't obey God because of laws written on stone. Christians obey God because HE has written HIS law on our hearts/in our spirits.
It is one thing to know right from wrong in ones mind, it's another for it to be written in the deepest part of ones spiritual being.
We don't obey man's laws, we obey God's laws.

For me, it's both because it's written and in my heart. I think, and this is JMO, that verse means in so many words, to start with the written law and if things get confusing, the answers will be written in our heart. Is written in out heart as simple as we will have a conscience? May be or it may go deeper than that. Or maybe it falls in the area of the Holy Spirit and is that no more than having a very delicate conscience? IDK? Just some thoughts on the matter.

Either way, A true Christian knows not to fornicate...if they don't then they have somehow managed to deceive themselves. It's one of the big ten, and mentioned several times beyond that, how could they not know?

Non Christians who fornicate, that's up to them, they have chosen their way and they are allowed to do that so, it doesn't matter.

 

[Deborah13]

For me, it's both because it's written and in my heart. I think, and this is JMO, that verse means in so many words, to start with the written law and if things get confusing, the answers will be written in our heart. Is written in out heart as simple as we will have a conscience? May be or it may go deeper than that. Or maybe it falls in the area of the Holy Spirit and is that no more than having a very delicate conscience? IDK? Just some thoughts on the matter.

Either way, A true Christian knows not to fornicate...if they don't then they have somehow managed to deceive themselves. It's one of the big ten, and mentioned several times beyond that, how could they not know?

Non Christians who fornicate, that's up to them, they have chosen their way and they are allowed to do that so, it doesn't matter.

This thread is not about Christians fornicating. It's about making laws and enforcing laws against people who live together without a state legal marriage license. It's not a law that will eradicate fornication, nor is that the intent of the law. This law is to send a message that fornication is wrong, yes. But will it do anything to stop it, and can it be enforced? If so, how?

 

[Obadiah]

...There are indeed Christians who have taken a solid stance against sin and have repented from fornication. You, for instance. Right?...

One thing I did in my post is refer to "people who go to church" or "church going people". I purposely didn't call this group "Christians". As strong, dedicated Christians we realize there are a lot of people who go to church who are not Christians or who may have gone through some motion of "accepting Christ" but never went much further. They are all included in most of the statistics on what "Christians" are doing these days. The secular world sees everyone who attends a church service as a "Christian" and looks at the actions of all of those people. This larger group of people is what I'm talking about when I say they have a rate of "fornicating" that is just as high as the rest of the world, and this casts a shadow on all of us which, from what I've seen, makes this kind of legislated morality unworkable because the rest of the world sees all of us as a bunch of hypocrites for telling them they can't do the same thing we are all secretly doing behind closed doors ourselves. (I'm not saying this is true among all Christians, just that this is the way the rest of the world sees it.) This is something that needs to be fixed before we can realistically tell other people how to live their lives and get any amount of respect or cooperation, although I admit I have little hope it will happen anytime soon.

Another issue, and a serious one that affects real Christians as well, is that most of us don't even know what fornication is! How many of us realize that fornication is an English word that was created so Biblical translators could translate an ancient Greek concept that had no English equivalent at the time? That would be fine and dandy if today there was agreement on what the new English word meant. But listen to 10 different Christian teachers and you will probably hear 10 different definitions of what fornication means. Everyone reading this, try this; Ask yourself what you believe fornication to be. If you can actually answer this in a detailed and concise way (many can't), then ask yourself how you know this. Did you hear it from your pastor or Sunday School teacher, who is probably just repeating what they heard from someone else? Or did you do actual and honest research deeply into the early writings of the apostles, the cultures of the time and the people these apostles wrote to, and the methods of translating those writings to English in order to come to your conclusion that fornication means what you think it means? I doubt very many of us have.

One person will say an unmarried man and woman holding hands are fornicating. Another will say they aren't even allowed to talk to each other unless in the presence of a chaperone, otherwise they are committing fornication. (Yes, these are real examples of what I have been told by Christian pastors.) Another Christian teacher will say that all these things, including kissing is ok, but if you go "further" you are fornicating. Some will say fornication includes all sex outside of marriage, yet others say you can do intimate sexual things and still not be actually fornicating as long as you don't do it for the purpose of sorcery or idol worship (which I have heard actually WAS part of the original concept that got translated to our English word!). To one, the act of living in the same house is fornication. To another it's not. And it goes on and on and on.

How can we tell the secular world with a secular law that they can not "fornicate" when the group of people who invented the word (Christians) can't even agree on what it means? How can we, as Christians, expect to get any respect or cooperation from the secular public when we as a group are so divided we can't even come close to any kind of agreement on what it is we are actually telling them they can't do?

 

[Sparkey]

I think I may be misunderstanding your post...but I'm bouncing off it anyway, with my thoughts...hope that is OK with you.....

Deborah13, may I offer you as much grace as possible? Of course it is okay(!) with me and that's also what I do. When we listen and "bounce off" each other it is, to me, the very definition of relationship. We relate one thing to another. And yes, that is perfectly okay by me. It's like we share meals together. By the way, in the very beginning of the thread I had a sidetracked thought flicker in me. One second... I'll fetch it...

Ye are the salt of the earth!

The quote came because it supported the general thought that we are to preserve morality, and at the risk of mixing metaphors, to continue to be as light in the darkness. You've heard that from out of the mouth proceeds what fills the heart. We are also to "let [our] conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. (Col 4:6 NIV)"

There is a connection between the grace that we are to have and our conversations. Both these are connected to being the salt of the earth. The self-right ones who hear but do not repent, yet set themselves apart (as teachers) are salt too. But they are salt that has lost its flavor; worthy only to be tossed and ground underfoot.

This thread is not about Christians fornicating. It's about making laws and enforcing laws against people who live together without a state legal marriage license. It's not a law that will eradicate fornication, nor is that the intent of the law. This law is to send a message that fornication is wrong, yes. But will it do anything to stop it, and can it be enforced? If so, how?

Exactly.

"How can it work?" The very same could be asked (and was asked, I'm sure) by the those who looked upon the sons of Anak. They saw Amalekites to the south. They saw the Hittites, and the Jebusites, and Amorites up in the mountains. And over by the sea? Canaanites.

How can it possibly work? Frankly, I don't know. But that won't stop us either.

 

[Sparkey]

(I'm not saying this is true among all Christians, just that this is the way the rest of the world sees it.)

Good clarification, Obadiah. Thank you.

most of us don't even know what fornication is! How many of us realize that fornication is an English word that was created so Biblical translators could translate an ancient Greek concept that had no English equivalent at the time?

Your observation hadn't occured to me. It's true. The word "porneia" can mean immorality as well as illicit sexual intercourse. This word was translated into Latin as fornicatio. And the link to idolatry was lost. Infidelity and the defilement of idolatry refers back to Israel's history with false gods. The word translated 'fornication' (zanah) in Hebrew carries the concept of playing the harlot. But how many Christians do word studies in Greek and Hebrew even if they are just quick and rudimentary looks at Strong's Exhaustive? We've almost limited our view to fundamentalists now. People who take the word of God literally, right? These are also the very ones that are being attacked as backward and ignorant in the media.

We need to refresh our thinking and to let the Word of God cleanse our minds. The book of Hosea comes to mind as I am convinced that it was written with us as the targeted audience.

 

[Sparkey]

Deb, you've asked "How?"

This is The Lounge area. It's not really a place for the meat of the word (maybe). But I've mentioned sharing meals earlier and I really do love this type of fellowship. You already know the story of the Minor Prophet Hosea. He was told: "Go. Take a wife of harlotry." Prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (2 Pet 1:21)

I think that Hosea may have been at the top of the list when Peter spoke of holy men that wondered what it all could mean. We are told by the Holy Spirit through Peter of "the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully." They wanted to know because things didn't quite line up with their own lives and times. They wanted to know and inquired carefully asking what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. Hosea was one such Prophet, I'm certain. He was told to take a wife of harlotry. It's a story about undying love. The story of Hosea and Gomer.

And there are some very, very special parts to be found. Like the 2nd chapter when the question of "How" that you have asked is answered. Verse 14, "Therefore, behold, I will allure her and bring her into the wilderness and speak comfortably unto her. And I will give her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope."

That's the clue that we need to conduct our own Spirit led inquiry. Look at the meaning of the valley of Achor and understand. Be sure to read the promise that she will call Him Ishi (husband) and will no longer call Him Baali (Lord/Master) because He will take the names of Baalim out of her mouth. The "how of it" has the same answer that we know. How? God will do it. He will perform all that He has declared and that is why we can stand and say, "I do so love You."

It's not really about the heathen who refuse to listen. It's more about the ones who hear and act and even more about the love of God toward us. Even as we love we also obey.

[QUOTE="Rom 10:15 KJV" ]And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things![/QUOTE]

It's a wonder to me how we, as Christians sharing together in fellowship can tie things like fornication and idolatry to the Good News and Glad Tidings that have been spoken throughout the ages. No, I'm not trying to say, "Return to the good ol' days. Bring the hellfire and brimstone," but instead that it is time that we leave the milk and go on to speak plainly that truth of the plan of God. It is there, in those things that are only glimpsed that we hear of the 'subsequent glories' and that is the message that comes with our ceasing idolatry (fornication).

I'm convinced that we are the beneficiaries of a conversation that transpires between Father and Son. It is glorious beyond our imagining. And it comes to us with the invitation to put on the white robe and attend a ceremony planned by God since the beginning. Fornication (porneía) is illegal -- but that is not the message. Rather it is the love story of the ages. One that needs to be heard.

 

[Kenny_ms]

This thread is not about Christians fornicating. It's about making laws and enforcing laws against people who live together without a state legal marriage license. It's not a law that will eradicate fornication, nor is that the intent of the law. This law is to send a message that fornication is wrong, yes. But will it do anything to stop it, and can it be enforced? If so, how?

The thread is about people fornicating... Christians who might pretend it's OK and non-Christians who don't care and will do it because it doesn't matter to them.

The world is not going to stop that or several other sins and to think anything can be done about it? no offense as it's a nice though to think we can stop sin in the world by means other than having people turn to God but even then, the christian only "may" not do it ever again. So it is a little ridiculous to think we can stop a Godless world.

Sinners are on a roll, have done away with God and conscience. The government, the only people who can stop them, are full of sinners too, so they won't implement anything rash enough to stop it because they would only be hurting themselves. The best one might get out of them is a token Just Say No champagne but we all know how that will pan out.

All we can hope to do is something we are supposed to be doing anyway and try to get saved what individuals we can so they will stop but overall, not only do I see no way to fix it but it has to happen.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

 

[Deborah13]

How can it possibly work? Frankly, I don't know. But that won't stop us either.

So who is going to decide if couple is married or not, the state? The state says gays are married.
Man is the only one who decided that people in their state, needed to have a state issued marriage license to start with, not God.
That is not one of God's laws.

So we are going to arrest and punish an adult man and woman who live together without a legal state marriage license, and not arrest a same-sex couple with a legal state marriage license.

imo....
There is not anywhere in the NT, where I can see, either Jesus or the apostles, said to convert the populous by making laws for them to live by. In fact, in the OT there is no such thing, either. God told Israel to make proselytes, coverts. I see that exact same message in the NT. Why can't we just believe/trust God that His way is the best way.

Do you know of any scripture that tells us that is what we are suppose to be doing?

Now abortion is a whole different ball game. Even secular doctors and scientist say physical life itself, begins at conception.
All sane people agree that taking a human life is wrong. So there is a very logical argument to be brought against abortion even to secular people, in a secular nation.

 

[Kenny_ms]

It's not really about the heathen who refuse to listen.

If you are out to stop fornication over all that is MOSTLY what it is about, stopping the heathen.

 

[Sparkey]

We could let the dead bury the dead and simply preach the truth. I'm not "out to stop fornication" but am saying that it is illegal and refusing to go along with the crowd that looks the other way and pretends it's okay. It's not.

Maybe I said something that indicates that I'm somehow out to stop fornication? I'm not sure where and think that others are reading into things that I have not said. Please refrain from defining my position for me.

 

[Deborah13]

The thread is about people fornicating.

Questions in the OP, below........

Ask yourselves if we were supposed to vote to remove and/or change the 'outdated laws' or 'old moral codes' how would you stand on the issue?

Laws in Florida, Michigan and Mississippi make it illegal for the unmarried to “lewdly and lasciviously associate and cohabit together.” What do you think?

Is there any possibility that we may ever return to 'One nation, under God"?

When was this nation ever a truly Godly nation. In the very beginning, 1600's, the Puritans contracted to have free men kidnapped to make them slaves and property. They themselves kidnapped free men and sold them into slavery.
That was Never allowed by God's laws. Not Moses Law, not ever!

Will there ever be a time when we, as a society, are able to enact righteousness?

I have hope that the Gospel message, will be accepted by all men in this nation.

Or will we prefer the comfort of pretense and go forward unwilling to change?

That depends on God's will, for this nation. How this nation fits into His plan. I don't see it in scripture, so I cannot say what His plan is for this nation, of America.

The only nation, that I see clearing in scripture, is the Israel of God. The gates of hell, shall not stand against it.