Fornication is still illegal

[Sparkey]

There is a literary device called a "hook" that is designed to get the readers attention. Seems that I'm too smart for my own britches but you may want to take my word for it when I say that I am not in favor of using force any more than Jesus was.

Let the dead bury the dead. In answer to your question, yes. I do have the right to vote my conscious and I did say, "if we were supposed to vote to remove and/or change the 'outdated laws'" <--- emphasis on the IF. My main point is that man's law does not matter. Fornication is illegal because it is against the higher law, the law of God.

My further point, and the one that everybody is in danger of missing is that fornication is directly tied to idolatry. We would need to understand church history and Judaism to see that. We need to stand against sin, and I don't think being quiet and going along with the silent majority is the way to do it.

This is NOT a debate forum and I have not presented my thoughts here as if it were. I don't appreciate being quoted in order to tell me what I've said. I know what was said and also what was meant.

I think I may be misunderstanding your post...but I'm bouncing off it anyway, with my thoughts...hope that is OK with you.....

Yes, that's still okay. I just don't want to be depicted as saying something that I did not intend.

 

[Kenny_ms]

Maybe I said something that indicates that I'm somehow out to stop fornication? I'm not sure where and think that others are reading into things that I have not said. Please refrain from defining my position for me.

Yes, you did say several things, it's all over your original post. It was very easy to come to the conclusion I did from reading your OP. You defined your own position, or at the very least, it should be very obvious how one that reads the OP could draw that conclusion.

Those who went off track (including myself) with the School thing must have though the Schools weren't doing anything to stop it. If they didn't think the OP indicated that was your desire, wonder why they saw it too?

You agreed with the following:

This thread is not about Christians fornicating. It's about making laws and enforcing laws against people who live together without a state legal marriage license. It's not a law that will eradicate fornication, nor is that the intent of the law. This law is to send a message that fornication is wrong, yes. But will it do anything to stop it, and can it be enforced? If so, how?

And though Deb does mention it's not about eradicating fornication, you want to send a message that it's wrong, in turn one might draw the conclusion that if you want people to know it's wrong, that you may want them to stop.

I could go on about why but I won't, it's an argument that just isn't worth more trouble than I've allowed for it. I will say something more within your boundaries, the exact same thing that I already said but worded a bit differently. You say it's illegal and by illegal, earlier you said illegal by Gods law, right. There are people that simply don't care about Gods law, any of it, and I don't think there is anything anyone can do within reason, to substantially change that.

Whether you just want people to know they should stop it or that they do stop it, makes little difference how it's worded, people will sin...it's a given.

 

[Sparkey]

Kenny_ms, thank you for the acknowledgement. And yes, I can see where a cursory read would indicate that I am ranting. That's true enough but during the rant I started thinking about a question that Deborah13 asked. She asked "HOW"?

The answer touches revelation and looks to the Prophet Hosea. I would sincerely like to suggest that the time needed to investigate this line of thinking is well worth it.

Cordially,
Sparrow

PS. Did you hear about the time when the Prophet Hosea walked into the bar and the bartender asked him to leave saying, "We don't serve minors..."

 

[Kenny_ms]

There is a literary device called a "hook" that is designed to get the readers attention. Seems that I'm too smart for my own britches but you may want to take my word for it when I say that I am not in favor of using force any more than Jesus was.

Jesus and God, both use force and probably some of the worse force imaginable.

And I should add, that is probably the only force that's necessary. I think all we are supposed to do is use force to uphold the law so we can all live here in reasonable peace but at the same time, and I'm sure you'll agree, people need to be allowed to sin.

 

[Kenny_ms]

Kenny_ms, thank you for the acknowledgement. And yes, I can see where a cursory read would indicate that I am ranting. That's true enough but during the rant I started thinking about a question that Deborah13 asked. She asked "HOW"?

Thank you for understanding.

 

[jasonc]

florida doesn't arrest fornicators and has NOT done so in a long time.adultery , which I posted the elements of the crime and why its a crime in the military is hardly able to enforced. they go after the worse cases.

 

[Deborah13]

I do have the right to vote my conscious and I did say, "if we were supposed to vote to remove and/or change the 'outdated laws'" <--- emphasis on the IF. My main point is that man's law does not matter. Fornication is illegal because it is against the higher law, the law of God.

Here's a law I would vote for IF the state were to present it.......
Christians can only marry other Christians.
I see that principle in Moses' Law and repeated in the NT.

The answer touches revelation and looks to the Prophet Hosea. I would sincerely like to suggest that the time needed to investigate this line of thinking is well worth it.

My first thought is that the prophecy points to the Cross. The statement of Paul, that Jew and Greek are one, in Christ. And that God reconciled Himself to the world, in Christ. She called her second son Loammi (not my people) who become the people of the living God.

 

[Deborah13]

Thread Derailing, Sports Announcement

The Triple Crown has been won for the first time in 37 years, by American Pharaoh and jockey Victor Espinoza. :biggrin

 

[Runner]

Fornication is illegal because it is against the higher law, the law of God.

Fornication is immoral because it is against the mandates of God. Whether it is illegal is determined solely by society. Society chooses not to define illegality in the same way that God defines morality, which is society's prerogative. Some (not all) Christians would prefer it if there were a 1:1 correspondence between God's mandates and society's laws, but there never has been and never will be. Right-wing Christians and pseudo-Christians have the fantasy that they will impose God's mandates on society, but it will simply never happen. When society's laws seriously conflict with God's mandates, a Christian has to have the courage to follow God's mandates. In my experience, Christianity as a whole and Christians as individuals have compromised God's mandates to one degree or another because the real gods of their lives are sex, money and power. This is obvious to the rest of society, which is one of the primary reasons that the message of right-wing Christians and pseudo-Christians does not resonate with society as a whole.

 

[Obadiah]

...My further point, and the one that everybody is in danger of missing is that fornication is directly tied to idolatry...

yet others say you can do intimate sexual things and still not be actually fornicating as long as you don't do it for the purpose of sorcery or idol worship (which I have heard actually WAS part of the original concept that got translated to our English word!)

I got it! I got it! Yes I did!!!

I just don't talk about it much because every time I do Christians fight me about it and call me a liar and a sinner because they don't want to correct their long held erroneous understanding!

 

[Deborah13]

I got it! I got it! Yes I did!!!

I just don't talk about it much because every time I do Christians fight me about it and call me a liar and a sinner because they don't want to correct their long held erroneous understanding!

Isn't all sin idolatry?

When God says Israel played the harlot, I don't think He was talking about just sexual sin. He was talking about turning from Him to other gods.

 

[Obadiah]

Isn't all sin idolatry?

Not necessarily. At least not in this way. The practice of what our English Bibles call fornication came from a particular type of direct worship of one of the Greek gods (Aphrodite, if I remember right) physically taking place in her temple. I see all sin as rebellion against God, but certainly not all sin involves direct worship of another god, such as the Greek Aphrodite.

 

[Milk-Drops]

I never understood this fetish for trying to make the world resemble a utopia by using Biblical laws as a basis. From what I understand and learned is that societies that try to force people to fit into specific boxes of belief always turn into dictatorships or empires of subjugation. A specific group is given a pass and all their actions are excused or justified.


I look at these types of topics as if they are a contest. Lets say the contest is about who could best build a bird house. There are tons of contestants and their are general rules that have been agreed upon by the group that should be enforced. Over the years some rules are dropped or added as the contest changed and more people are brought into the community. However there are some contestants that don't like the rule changes and are very vocal about it. During the competitions they tend to harass the other builders about how they aren't following the "rules" as they like them and tend to ignore their own bird house. At the end of the contest, its not about the rules, but the quality of the birdhouse. If as many people spent as much time on their own birdhouses as they did complaining about the other builders, maybe more people would look towards the quality of the builder?

Just my thoughts.

 

[Sparkey]

I just don't talk about it much because every time I do Christians fight me about it and call me a liar and a sinner because they don't want to correct their long held erroneous understanding!

I know the feeling. Somethings are fought tooth and nail but it is because we crave our sins and love them and can understand without effort when ever the altars we have constructed are threatened. Our flesh is strong. Good thing that it (our maturation) is not dependent on us. God will perform it.

 

[Sparkey]

I never understood this fetish for trying to make the world resemble a utopia

Okay, I give up. That MUST be what I mean. Yes. Let's force God's law on others and cram it down their throats. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Sheesh! I'm a very patient man but this is getting silly.

 

[Sparkey]

Ask yourself, "Why did God emphasize fornication in Acts 15 and put it on par with drinking blood? The conversation included circumcision, something that Moses almost lost his life over, but that was not required. Peter dismissed the concern over circumcision.

And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Peter replies essentially (paraphrase), "Why do we want to yoke them with a burden that neither our fathers nor we ourselves can bear?" He was speaking about the Gentiles who were newly converted to The Way of Life. So we see that Jewish men had greatly disputed these things and concluded that circumcision (and Jewish customs) were NOT required. They continued their discussion along the lines of, "Well, what is required?"

James stood and spoke of a prophecy (Amos 9:11-12) that Gentiles (heathen) would be included in the saved -- then went on to declare the way of it: "Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. [Act 15:19-20 ESV]

So they wrote their Gentile brothers, "For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell." [Act 15:28-29 ESV]

Three of those should be no-brainers for most in today's society. But let a man come and declare in no uncertain terms that fornication is unlawful and that those who do not recognize that fact are destitute of the law and anamos (lawless) and watch out! It's almost as if I am picking on somebody's sacred place. The best defense is a strong offence, right? But why must we defend against a statement that sin such as fornication should be and is illegal?

Huh? What's it to you?

 

[Milk-Drops]

Okay, I give up. That MUST be what I mean. Yes. Let's force God's law on others and cram it down their throats. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Sheesh! I'm a very patient man but this is getting silly.

My response is more in line with what a few other posters have said and not aimed at you specifically. You did make a big deal about fornication being illegal and alluding to when is the country going to return to being God fearing. I'm just pointing out that if people spent as much time working on their craft or ministry or passion as they did complaining about the sins of the world, maybe more people would follow those people.

I understand if your post was just a vent of a frustration, but I was just airing my thoughts.

 

[Sparkey]

The comment, about "In God we Trust" was rhetorical, but not a big deal. If I could go back and edit it out, I would, as I understand now that it is the source of a misunderstanding.

Laws in Florida, Michigan and Mississippi make it illegal for the unmarried to “lewdly and lasciviously associate and cohabit together.” What do you think? Is there any possibility that we may ever return to 'One nation, under God"? Will there ever be a time when we, as a society, are able to enact righteousness? Or will we prefer the comfort of pretense and go forward unwilling to change?

Better?

 

[Deborah13]

Not necessarily. At least not in this way. The practice of what our English Bibles call fornication came from a particular type of direct worship of one of the Greek gods (Aphrodite, if I remember right) physically taking place in her temple. I see all sin as rebellion against God, but certainly not all sin involves direct worship of another god, such as the Greek Aphrodite.

I didn't know that was were the word fornication came from in the Greek language.
We had discussed in another thread about Corinth and the temple prostitutes and worship, there was a temple there to Aphrodite.

So when we look at this verse, what was Paul talking about?
"1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."

 

[Sparkey]

According to Yahweh's Restoration Ministry (YRM) that my Google search found, "Fornication in either the Hebrew or Greek can have and denote a wide range of definitions. It can mean literal fornication, adultery, harlotry, incest, pedophilia, bestiality, or any other sexual restriction that Yahweh has placed for mankind to observe."

The Complete Word Study Old Testament offers a more decisive definition than found in Strong’s. It notes on page 2312 in its Lexical Aid, "To fornicate, commit fornication, be a harlot, play the harlot, commit adultery; to apostatize, have intercourse with false g-ds or foreigners; to seduce. The main idea is to commit illicit sexual intercourse, particularly with women. However, this strong image is used in a figurative sense to describe illegal contact between Israel and other nations and their g-ds…"

We reference the context to understand the more precise meaning. Paul speaks of "fornication" in one passage where it should more properly (to English speakers) be rendered as "incest with mother-in-law". Our dictionaries show the primary meaning to mean "sexual intercourse between consenting adults outside of marriage". The aspect of harlotry and idolatry (including apostasy) is well known and established throughout the history of Israel where God very graphically depicts the actions of His Beloved of whom we are now a part.