Free Will is a Fallen Will

[GodsGrace]

More likely the reason is because you keep bringing Calvin up and asking Calvinists to respond to something that he wrote.

Why don’t you ask other people to respond to the writings of John Calvin? He has as much to do with their personal beliefs as he has to do with our personal beliefs (which is almost nothing).

It's because others follow Jesus and the Apostles teachings.
Those that believe such as you do, follow the teachings of men.

It would be like a catholic following the teachings of the CCC instead of the teachings of the bible.

Same thing.

I'll be reply to your post above after dinner.

 

[atpollard]

It's because others follow Jesus and the Apostles teachings.
Those that believe such as you do, follow the teachings of men.

Untruth.

 

[GodsGrace]

Untruth.

OK... No more talk about Calvin and Augustine....
I usually use the term reformed...when necessary.

 

[atpollard]

The fallen will of man according to SCRIPTURE:

Sin is any lack of conformity to, or violation of the Law of God:

• "Suppose you sin by violating one of the LORD's commands. Even if you are unaware of what you have done, you are guilty and will be punished for your sin.” [Lev 5:17 NLT]
• “Remember, it is sin to know what you ought to do and then not do it.” [Jas 4:17 NLT]
• “Everyone who sins is breaking God's law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God.” [1Jo 3:4 NLT]

The first sin was when our first parents ate the forbidden fruit.

• “The woman was convinced. She saw that the tree was beautiful and its fruit looked delicious, and she wanted the wisdom it would give her. So she took some of the fruit and ate it. Then she gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it, too.” [Gen 3:6 NLT]

God had made a covenant with Adam.

• But the LORD God warned him, "You may freely eat the fruit of every tree in the garden-- except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat its fruit, you are sure to die." [Gen 2:16-17 NLT]
• “For the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as a person who has broken all of God's laws.” [Jas 2:10 NLT]

All mankind descending from Adam sinned in him and fell with him.

• “When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not yet any law to break. Still, everyone died--from the time of Adam to the time of Moses--even those who did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. Now Adam is a symbol, a representation of Christ, who was yet to come. But there is a great difference between Adam's sin and God's gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God's wonderful grace and his gift of forgiveness to many through this other man, Jesus Christ. And the result of God's gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man's sin. For Adam's sin led to condemnation, but God's free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins. For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God's wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ.“
• “Yes, Adam's one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ's one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone. Because one person disobeyed God, many became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many will be made righteous.”
• “God's law was given so that all people could see how sinful they were. But as people sinned more and more, God's wonderful grace became more abundant. So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God's wonderful grace rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” [Rom 5:12-21 NLT]
• “Just as everyone dies because we all belong to Adam, everyone who belongs to Christ will be given new life.” [1Co 15:22 NLT]

The fall brought all mankind into sin and misery.

• Then he said to the woman, "I will sharpen the pain of your pregnancy, and in pain you will give birth. And you will desire to control your husband, but he will rule over you." And to the man he said, "Since you listened to your wife and ate from the tree whose fruit I commanded you not to eat, the ground is cursed because of you. All your life you will struggle to scratch a living from it. It will grow thorns and thistles for you, though you will eat of its grains. By the sweat of your brow will you have food to eat until you return to the ground from which you were made. For you were made from dust, and to dust you will return." [Gen 3:16-19 NLT]
• “So the LORD God banished them from the Garden of Eden, and he sent Adam out to cultivate the ground from which he had been made.” [Gen 3:23 NLT]
• “Destruction and misery always follow them.” [Rom 3:16 NLT]
• “When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.” [Rom 5:12 NLT]
• “Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins.” [Eph 2:1 NLT]

So what exactly did we inherit from Adam?

1. The guilt of Adam’s first sin.
   • “When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.” [Rom 5:12 NLT]
   • “Because one person disobeyed God, many became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many will be made righteous.” [Rom 5:19 NLT]
2. The loss of original righteousness.
   • As the Scriptures say, "No one is righteous--not even one.” [Rom 3:10 NLT]
   • “Put on your new nature, and be renewed as you learn to know your Creator and become like him.” [Col 3:10 NLT]
   • “Put on your new nature, created to be like God--truly righteous and holy.” [Eph 4:24 NLT]
3. The corruption of our whole nature.
   • “For I was born a sinner--yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.” [Psa 51:5 NLT]
   • “Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life.” [Jhn 3:6 NLT]
   • "They have no fear of God at all." [Rom 3:18 NLT]
   • “For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God's laws, and it never will. That's why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God.” [Rom 8:7-8 NLT]
   • “All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God's anger, just like everyone else.” [Eph 2:3 NLT]
4. Plus all of the actual sins that come from our fallen nature.
   • “The LORD observed the extent of human wickedness on the earth, and he saw that everything they thought or imagined was consistently and totally evil.” [Gen 6:5 NLT]
   • For the choir director: A meditation; a psalm of David. Only fools say in their hearts, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; not one of them does good! God looks down from heaven on the entire human race; he looks to see if anyone is truly wise, if anyone seeks God. But no, all have turned away; all have become corrupt. No one does good, not a single one! [Psa 53:1-3 NLT]
   • “For from the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, all sexual immorality, theft, lying, and slander.” [Mat 15:19 NLT]
   • As the Scriptures say, "No one is righteous--not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one." "Their talk is foul, like the stench from an open grave. Their tongues are filled with lies." "Snake venom drips from their lips." "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness." "They rush to commit murder. Destruction and misery always follow them. They don't know where to find peace." "They have no fear of God at all." [Rom 3:10-18 NLT]
   • “For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God's glorious standard.” [Rom 3:23 NLT]
   • “When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.” [Gal 5:19-21 NLT]
   • “Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away. These desires give birth to sinful actions. And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death.” [Jas 1:14-15 NLT]

 

[atpollard]

What is the consequence for all mankind?

1. Lost communion with God.
   • “When the cool evening breezes were blowing, the man and his wife heard the LORD God walking about in the garden. So they hid from the LORD God among the trees.” [Gen 3:8 NLT]
   • “After sending them out, the LORD God stationed mighty cherubim to the east of the Garden of Eden. And he placed a flaming sword that flashed back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.” [Gen 3:24 NLT]
   • Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave of sin.” [Jhn 8:34 NLT]
   • Jesus told them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, because I have come to you from God. I am not here on my own, but he sent me.” [Jhn 8:42 NLT]
   • “For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies.” [Jhn 8:44 NLT]
   • “In those days you were living apart from Christ. You were excluded from citizenship among the people of Israel, and you did not know the covenant promises God had made to them. You lived in this world without God and without hope.” [Eph 2:12 NLT]
   • “Their minds are full of darkness; they wander far from the life God gives because they have closed their minds and hardened their hearts against him.” [Eph 4:18 NLT]
2. Under God’s wrath.
   • “And anyone who believes in God's Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn't obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God's angry judgment." [Jhn 3:36 NLT]
   • “But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness.” [Rom 1:18 NLT]
   • “All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God's anger, just like everyone else.” [Eph 2:3 NLT]
   • “Don't be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him.” [Eph 5:6 NLT]
3. Under a curse.
   • But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, "Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God's Book of the Law." [Gal 3:10 NLT]
   • “No longer will there be a curse upon anything. For the throne of God and of the Lamb will be there, and his servants will worship him.” [Rev 22:3 NLT]
4. Liable to all the miseries of this life.
   • Then he said to the woman, "I will sharpen the pain of your pregnancy, and in pain you will give birth. And you will desire to control your husband, but he will rule over you." And to the man he said, "Since you listened to your wife and ate from the tree whose fruit I commanded you not to eat, the ground is cursed because of you. All your life you will struggle to scratch a living from it. It will grow thorns and thistles for you, though you will eat of its grains. By the sweat of your brow will you have food to eat until you return to the ground from which you were made. For you were made from dust, and to dust you will return." [Gen 3:16-19 NLT]
   • “People are born for trouble as readily as sparks fly up from a fire.” [Job 5:7 NLT]
   • So what do people get in this life for all their hard work and anxiety? Their days of labor are filled with pain and grief; even at night their minds cannot rest. It is all meaningless. [Ecc 2:22-23 NLT]
   • “Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will reveal to us later. For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are. Against its will, all creation was subjected to God's curse. But with eager hope, the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God's children in glorious freedom from death and decay. For we know that all creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. And we believers also groan, even though we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory, for we long for our bodies to be released from sin and suffering. We, too, wait with eager hope for the day when God will give us our full rights as his adopted children, including the new bodies he has promised us.” [Rom 8:18-23 NLT]
5. Destined to die.
   • “For all people are mine to judge--both parents and children alike. And this is my rule: The person who sins is the one who will die.” [Eze 18:4 NLT]
   • “When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.” [Rom 5:12 NLT]
   • “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.” [Rom 6:23 NLT]
6. Rightly condemned to Hell.
   • "Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, 'Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.” [Mat 25:41 NLT]
   • "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life." [Mat 25:46 NLT]
   • “They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power.” [2Th 1:9 NLT]
   • Then a third angel followed them, shouting, "Anyone who worships the beast and his statue or who accepts his mark on the forehead or on the hand must drink the wine of God's anger. It has been poured full strength into God's cup of wrath. And they will be tormented with fire and burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb. The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night, for they have worshiped the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name." [Rev 14:9-11 NLT]

So that is the will and destiny of men free from any interference from God according to SCRIPTURE. Please do not again accuse me of ignoring scripture and following the teaching of a man whose words I have not read.

 

[JLB]

You see Hospes,,,when speaking to a reformed person, sooner or later the conversation turns to CALVIN. This does NOT happen when speaking to non-reformed Christians on any topic. Why do you suppose this is? Perhaps it's because it's called Calvinism because Calvin was very influential in spreading this belief?

This is true.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

OK.

[Philippians 2:1-18 NASB]
1 Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, 2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. 3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; 4 do not [merely] look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, [and] being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for [His] good pleasure.
14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain. 17 But even if I am being poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I rejoice and share my joy with you all. 18 You too, [I urge you,] rejoice in the same way and share your joy with me.

I bolded all the sentences where Paul asks the Philippians to act in a certain way. I repeat, and repeat again, why would Paul do this if he KNEW that God predestined everything....if he knew that determinism was the correct biblical teaching.....

1. The BIG PICTURE is not directed at salvation, so we are gleaning leftovers from the text when we are looking at this passage for insight into SOTERIOLOGY (Free Will vs TULIP). However that does not mean that there are not grains of truth that can be gleaned. So the big picture is about CHRISTIANS (those already saved) living a life of service and encouragement towards one another. It is good advice.

BUT.....If it is God that predetermines all, and Paul knows this....
why even speak about how persons should act? Is it not GOD that determines our actions?

1. Hidden in the middle between following the example of Christ (the beginning) and taking personal responsibility to persevere through hardship (the end) is a short but powerful statement of hope and encouragement and power ... no less that GOD HIMSELF is at work inside of us. God is committed to HIS good pleasure ... meaning that God will do what God has decided to do and nobody and nothing will stop God from achieving His goals.

This is true. It cannot be denied. Whatever God wants to do will get done. But what does God want to get done? His desire is for all men to know Him and to give them eternal life.
John 4:14
14but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

Whoever drinks of Jesus' water....
A free will choice to either drink it or not.
God wishes to give us eternal life...
He wishes His creation to love him...
Freely.

Luke 8:36-37
36Those who had seen it reported to them how the man who was demon-possessed had been made well.
37And all the people of the country of the Gerasenes and the surrounding district asked Him to leave them, for they were gripped with great fear; and He got into a boat and returned.

Jesus was rejected....
and left. He used no coercion to convince the town to hear His words (the gospel). He left them to their free will choice to reject Him.

So God's goal is to save us and give us eternal life...IF we want it...
God leaves the decision to us.


God is working INSIDE us to WANT or DESIRE to do what is right, so we do not fight this battle against the old self alone. God is at work INSIDE us to DO what we want to do ... what God wants us to do. We are not FORCED by God, we are empowered by God to DESIRE the things that God desires (that is the renewing of the mind promised elsewhere in scripture) and we are empowered by God to DO the things we desire (the answer to the prayer of Paul in Romans “For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?” [Rom 7:22-24])
God is working inside us...I've agreed before.
Jesus said we can do nothing without Him...
John 15:5b

This is the reason the Holy Spirit was sent to us. This is why the Holy Spirit is called the Helper -
John 16:7 HE IS A HELPER.
If you say we are empowered, then I agree.

God “helps us” by manipulating our heart.

• [Ezekiel 36:25-27 NASB] 25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
  • God will baptize (cleanse with water)
  • God will remove an old heart and give a new heart (change our desires).
  • God will indwell us with His Spirit to “cause” [empower] us to walk according to His Laws.
  • Less than “enslavement” but more than just “encouragement”.
• [Jeremiah 31:33 NASB] 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
  • God has written His Law on our heart ... that involves SOME manipulation of the human heart ... for the better.

Do you know the difference between EMPOWER and MANIPULATE?


Definition of empower

transitive verb
1: to give official authority or legal power toempowered her attorney to act on her behalf
2: ENABLE sense 1a… nootropic agents empower the lower amounts of acetylcholine in diseased brains to work overtime …— Science News
3: to promote the self-actualization or influence of


Definition of manipulate

transitive verb
1: to treat or operate with or as if with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner manipulate a pencil manipulate a machine

2a: to manage or utilize skillfully quantify our data and manipulate it statistically— S. L. Payne
b: to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage being used and manipulated by the knowing men around him— New Republic

3: to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose



You're using these two words interchangeably.
Please decide which one you agree God uses for us.
I've agreed to EMPOWER, but cannot agree to MANIPULATE.
I cannot think of one verse that states God manipulates us...I do not find this concept in the bible.

As to Ezekiel and Jeremiah...
We've gone through this before...
I've said how this is regarding the NEW COVENANT...
How our heart will be changed upon salvation....
our heart will be changed....Upon acceptance of our salvation...
We will be a new creature.
2 Corinthians 5.17

Could you find a verse AFTER the New Covenant becomes valid that states it is GOD placing a new heart in us without our free will?

 

[JLB]

What is the consequence for all mankind?

1. Lost communion with God.
   • “When the cool evening breezes were blowing, the man and his wife heard the LORD God walking about in the garden. So they hid from the LORD God among the trees.” [Gen 3:8 NLT]
   • “After sending them out, the LORD God stationed mighty cherubim to the east of the Garden of Eden. And he placed a flaming sword that flashed back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.” [Gen 3:24 NLT]
   • Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave of sin.” [Jhn 8:34 NLT]
   • Jesus told them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, because I have come to you from God. I am not here on my own, but he sent me.” [Jhn 8:42 NLT]
   • “For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies.” [Jhn 8:44 NLT]
   • “In those days you were living apart from Christ. You were excluded from citizenship among the people of Israel, and you did not know the covenant promises God had made to them. You lived in this world without God and without hope.” [Eph 2:12 NLT]
   • “Their minds are full of darkness; they wander far from the life God gives because they have closed their minds and hardened their hearts against him.” [Eph 4:18 NLT]
2. Under God’s wrath.
   • “And anyone who believes in God's Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn't obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God's angry judgment." [Jhn 3:36 NLT]
   • “But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness.” [Rom 1:18 NLT]
   • “All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God's anger, just like everyone else.” [Eph 2:3 NLT]
   • “Don't be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him.” [Eph 5:6 NLT]
3. Under a curse.
   • But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, "Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God's Book of the Law." [Gal 3:10 NLT]
   • “No longer will there be a curse upon anything. For the throne of God and of the Lamb will be there, and his servants will worship him.” [Rev 22:3 NLT]
4. Liable to all the miseries of this life.
   • Then he said to the woman, "I will sharpen the pain of your pregnancy, and in pain you will give birth. And you will desire to control your husband, but he will rule over you." And to the man he said, "Since you listened to your wife and ate from the tree whose fruit I commanded you not to eat, the ground is cursed because of you. All your life you will struggle to scratch a living from it. It will grow thorns and thistles for you, though you will eat of its grains. By the sweat of your brow will you have food to eat until you return to the ground from which you were made. For you were made from dust, and to dust you will return." [Gen 3:16-19 NLT]
   • “People are born for trouble as readily as sparks fly up from a fire.” [Job 5:7 NLT]
   • So what do people get in this life for all their hard work and anxiety? Their days of labor are filled with pain and grief; even at night their minds cannot rest. It is all meaningless. [Ecc 2:22-23 NLT]
   • “Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will reveal to us later. For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are. Against its will, all creation was subjected to God's curse. But with eager hope, the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God's children in glorious freedom from death and decay. For we know that all creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. And we believers also groan, even though we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory, for we long for our bodies to be released from sin and suffering. We, too, wait with eager hope for the day when God will give us our full rights as his adopted children, including the new bodies he has promised us.” [Rom 8:18-23 NLT]
5. Destined to die.
   • “For all people are mine to judge--both parents and children alike. And this is my rule: The person who sins is the one who will die.” [Eze 18:4 NLT]
   • “When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.” [Rom 5:12 NLT]
   • “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.” [Rom 6:23 NLT]
6. Rightly condemned to Hell.
   • "Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, 'Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.” [Mat 25:41 NLT]
   • "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life." [Mat 25:46 NLT]
   • “They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power.” [2Th 1:9 NLT]
   • Then a third angel followed them, shouting, "Anyone who worships the beast and his statue or who accepts his mark on the forehead or on the hand must drink the wine of God's anger. It has been poured full strength into God's cup of wrath. And they will be tormented with fire and burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb. The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night, for they have worshiped the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name." [Rev 14:9-11 NLT]

So that is the will and destiny of men free from any interference from God according to SCRIPTURE. Please do not again accuse me of ignoring scripture and following the teaching of a man whose words I have not read.

I wouldn’t consider the NLT scripture.

 

[GodsGrace]

What is the consequence for all mankind?

1. Lost communion with God.
   • “When the cool evening breezes were blowing, the man and his wife heard the LORD God walking about in the garden. So they hid from the LORD God among the trees.” [Gen 3:8 NLT]
   • “After sending them out, the LORD God stationed mighty cherubim to the east of the Garden of Eden. And he placed a flaming sword that flashed back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.” [Gen 3:24 NLT]
   • Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave of sin.” [Jhn 8:34 NLT]
   • Jesus told them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, because I have come to you from God. I am not here on my own, but he sent me.” [Jhn 8:42 NLT]
   • “For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies.” [Jhn 8:44 NLT]
   • “In those days you were living apart from Christ. You were excluded from citizenship among the people of Israel, and you did not know the covenant promises God had made to them. You lived in this world without God and without hope.” [Eph 2:12 NLT]
   • “Their minds are full of darkness; they wander far from the life God gives because they have closed their minds and hardened their hearts against him.” [Eph 4:18 NLT]
2. Under God’s wrath.
   • “And anyone who believes in God's Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn't obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God's angry judgment." [Jhn 3:36 NLT]
   • “But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness.” [Rom 1:18 NLT]
   • “All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God's anger, just like everyone else.” [Eph 2:3 NLT]
   • “Don't be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him.” [Eph 5:6 NLT]
3. Under a curse.
   • But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, "Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God's Book of the Law." [Gal 3:10 NLT]
   • “No longer will there be a curse upon anything. For the throne of God and of the Lamb will be there, and his servants will worship him.” [Rev 22:3 NLT]
4. Liable to all the miseries of this life.
   • Then he said to the woman, "I will sharpen the pain of your pregnancy, and in pain you will give birth. And you will desire to control your husband, but he will rule over you." And to the man he said, "Since you listened to your wife and ate from the tree whose fruit I commanded you not to eat, the ground is cursed because of you. All your life you will struggle to scratch a living from it. It will grow thorns and thistles for you, though you will eat of its grains. By the sweat of your brow will you have food to eat until you return to the ground from which you were made. For you were made from dust, and to dust you will return." [Gen 3:16-19 NLT]
   • “People are born for trouble as readily as sparks fly up from a fire.” [Job 5:7 NLT]
   • So what do people get in this life for all their hard work and anxiety? Their days of labor are filled with pain and grief; even at night their minds cannot rest. It is all meaningless. [Ecc 2:22-23 NLT]
   • “Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will reveal to us later. For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are. Against its will, all creation was subjected to God's curse. But with eager hope, the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God's children in glorious freedom from death and decay. For we know that all creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. And we believers also groan, even though we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory, for we long for our bodies to be released from sin and suffering. We, too, wait with eager hope for the day when God will give us our full rights as his adopted children, including the new bodies he has promised us.” [Rom 8:18-23 NLT]
5. Destined to die.
   • “For all people are mine to judge--both parents and children alike. And this is my rule: The person who sins is the one who will die.” [Eze 18:4 NLT]
   • “When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.” [Rom 5:12 NLT]
   • “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.” [Rom 6:23 NLT]
6. Rightly condemned to Hell.
   • "Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, 'Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.” [Mat 25:41 NLT]
   • "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life." [Mat 25:46 NLT]
   • “They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power.” [2Th 1:9 NLT]
   • Then a third angel followed them, shouting, "Anyone who worships the beast and his statue or who accepts his mark on the forehead or on the hand must drink the wine of God's anger. It has been poured full strength into God's cup of wrath. And they will be tormented with fire and burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb. The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night, for they have worshiped the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name." [Rev 14:9-11 NLT]

So that is the will and destiny of men free from any interference from God according to SCRIPTURE. Please do not again accuse me of ignoring scripture and following the teaching of a man whose words I have not read.

You said this:
The person who sins is the one who will die.” [Eze 18:4 NLT]

and you said this:

So what exactly did we inherit from Adam?

1. The guilt of Adam’s first sin

Which is it?
If we're guilty of Adam's sin...that means it was imputed to us.

Ezekiel 18:4 states we are NOT imputed with the sin of others.

I skimmed through, atpollard, you wrote too much.
Who can possibly remember all that?
It has t o come out one topic at a time...
only that will work.

You posted John 3:36 IF you agreed with the exact wording, we'd agree...but then you change the meaning of the verse....

 

[atpollard]

Could you find a verse AFTER the New Covenant becomes valid that states it is GOD placing a new heart in us without our free will?

Sort of ...

[Eph 2:1-9 NASB] 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

• Rather than just a heart of stone, all people are spiritually dead as a door nail.
• Rather than just a new heart, God had to resurrect the whole dead person.
• Rather than “placing” a heart, God “gives faith”, to demonstrate that NONE of our works contribute anything.
• Is that close enough?

 

[atpollard]

I bolded all the sentences where Paul asks the Philippians to act in a certain way. I repeat, and repeat again, why would Paul do this if he KNEW that God predestined everything....if he knew that determinism was the correct biblical teaching.....

Your view of “determinism” is obviously not scriptural. That does not prove that man has Libertine Free Will and God is a powerless bystander. Scripture teaches that man is incapable of self-choosing God. Scripture teaches that the Father “Foreknew” and “predestined” and “drew” and “gave” to the Son those that are His Sheep, children of God, the Bride of Christ. Scripture teaches that the goats and tares and “not of my sheep” are not included in that group.

So what purpose do you think Paul’s warnings serve? They cannot be a call to the “natural man” that cannot comprehend them, so they must serve some other purpose.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sort of ...

[Eph 2:1-9 NASB] 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

• Rather than just a heart of stone, all people are spiritually dead as a door nail.
• Rather than just a new heart, God had to resurrect the whole dead person.
• Rather than “placing” a heart, God “gives faith”, to demonstrate that NONE of our works contribute anything.
• Is that close enough?

Hi A,,,,
I asked for a verse that speaks of God placing a new heart in us without our free will allowing Him to.

So you do NOT mean EMPOWER (post no. 187)....
You DO mean MANIPULATE....
Let's look at the meaning of Manipulate again and please confirm that this is what you believe God does:

1: to treat or operate with or as if with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner manipulate a pencil manipulate a machine

2a: to manage or utilize skillfully quantify our data and manipulate it statistically— S. L. Payne
b: to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage being used and manipulated by the knowing men around him— New Republic

3: to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose


The meanings even state that it would be to one's own purpose....
Does this mean that God's purpose was to create little robots (sorry 'bout that) so He could manipulate them as He wished?

So what is He,,,,a video game producer?
We're only here for His purpose and He considers not our needs and desires?
Then truly, He should never have made us if such insidious reasons are His ends.


But now. to Ephesians.....
I do believe that you came to scripture without preconceived notions....
So let's see how our understanding is different.
My replies are in blue.

Ephesians 2:1-9
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

We are born spiritually dead due to the sin of Adam.
Luke 15:32
32‘But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found.’”

Jesus said the progigal son was DEAD, and has BEGUN to live.
When did the Prodigal Son begin to live? When HE, of his own free will, decided to return to the house of his father. He realized what a mistake he made leaving his father's home and went back.
In THIS parable, no one went to look for him or bring him back.

Romans 7.9 tells us we are dead due to the law coming into being by God's command.
9I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;


2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

We formerly walked according to the course of this world....we served the prince of the air, the ruler of this world.
Everyone is born lost:
Romans 6:16
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

We PRESENT OURSELVES...it states nothing of God presenting us.
To the One WE WILL OBEY....
This sounds to me like libertarian free will.

3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

We were all lost before.
We were by nature children of wrath because we did not know or obey God.
John 3:36 (which you brought up)
. 36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Jesus said that he who does not obey the Son will not see life.
What a strange thing to say to someone that has no control over his salvation....Jesus must be a person that enjoys mocking His creation.




4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,


5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Does God love ONLY (the saved) or everyone?

John 3:16
For God so loved the World....


Acts 10:34-35
34Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
35but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.


7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

We are saved through the instrument of faith.

But what comes first?
Faith or regeneration?

Again, we must jump to a different topic because each item of TULIP depends on the others...IOW, change one teaching and you must change them all.

BELIEF comes BEFORE regeneration.
Acts 16:31
BELIEVE...
and you WILL BE SAVED.

Romans 10:9
9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

BELIEVE
and you WILL BE SAVED


Hebrews 7:25
25Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Those who DRAW NEAR TO GOD
HE IS ABLE TO SAVE

First comes belief
Then comes salvation


Is it possible for you to do this with verses instead of listing your beliefs? Could you demonstrate how you glean your beliefs from the verses?

 

[JLB]

Your view of “determinism” is obviously not scriptural.

How can an unbiblical concept such as determism be scriptural?


Its a man made term.



JLB

 

[Hospes]

You have a flood of questions. I'll take them one at a time.

You see Hospes,,,when speaking to a reformed person, sooner or later the conversation turns to CALVIN. This does NOT happen when speaking to non-reformed Christians on any topic. Why do you suppose this is? Perhaps it's because it's called Calvinism because Calvin was very influential in spreading this belief?

I agree. Am I missing a counterpoint to what I wrote?

Are you a two year old?

I am much older. But like a rebellious two-year-old, I am naturally prone toward pursuing independence/autonomy from a Person infinitely greater than I. By nature, I was one of the "children of wrath." (Ephesians 2:3)

Do you have the ability to know what God desires from you?

Yes. It's doing what He desires is where His help is absolutely essential. (Romans 8:8)

Or does God have to force HIS will on you?

It is rather that He works in me "to will and do HIs good pleasure. (Phillipiams 2:13)

When you decide to sin...is it YOU that decided to sin, or did GOD decide for you to sin?
IF GOD MAKES THE DECISION FOR YOU TO SIN...
Then YOU are off the hook,,,not God.
Since the sin was not YOUR decision...how could you be responsible for it?

When I sin, it is my decision to rebel against my maker and follow my natural desire. I own my sin and if it weren't for being clothed in Jesus' righteousness, I would rightfully deserve God's wrath, i.e. hell.

Calvinism makes all sinning that takes place the responsibility of GOD....and removes all culpability from us.

Personally, in all the Reformed authors I've read, I have never heard anything remotely similar to this taught. I have often heard it from anti-Calvinist explaining it is the logical conclusion of Calvinism. Interestingly enough, for many years I thought the same.

To be perfect means to be complete in our desires,,,,NOT to be perfect like Jesus was.

First, I think when Jesus said we are to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect, He was not referring to God being complete in His desires - not even sure what that would mean - but rather Holy to the degree God is Holy. In Christ, we are able to stand before God perfect, clothed in the Holiness of our Lord. (Philippians 3:9) Secondly, given my natural desire toward sin, I shudder to think of the person I'd be if I were complete in my own desires. There is nothing attractive in the thought.

To rejoice means to be happy IN THE LORD,,, not to be happy according to what the world believes happiness is. I go through tribulation and am very sad at times...but I am always JOYFUL.

Never have figured out how I can be joyful and not happy. I've heard it taught the two can be split, but I find the explanations woefully unconvincing.

We should not grow weary of doing good. If we do it means we are doing beyond what we can handle and it is not of God.

I think in the passage "doing good" is defined as what God desires us to do. I think my understanding is more straightforward than yours. I also think God calls me to go "beyond" what I can handle; it makes me that much more needy of Him.

“For a prohibition always increases an illicit desire so long as the love of and joy in holiness is too weak to conquer the inclination to sin...”
― Augustine of Hippo

You can't go getting all upset because I quote Augustine and then quote Augustine! Let's be fair!

 

[JLB]

I think in the passage "doing good" is defined as what God desires us to do.

Amen. Well said.


The Spirit leads us in these things that are good, and are inspired by God who is good.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

You have a flood of questions. I'll take them one at a time.

I agree. Am I missing a counterpoint to what I wrote?

No Hospes, you're not missing anything.
Let's just keep this scriptural, if possible.

I am much older. But like a rebellious two-year-old, I am naturally prone toward pursuing independence/autonomy from a Person infinitely greater than I. By nature, I was one of the "children of wrath." (Ephesians 2:3)

We all were. But we are now called children of God...
Through our faith in Jesus...Faith being the instrument.
Galatians 3:26

I just believe it's important to understand how we come to this faith....Is everyone eligible to be saved by God....or is it just HE that gets to choose? Based on what?

Yes. It's doing what He desires is where His help is absolutely essential. (Romans 8:8)

Agreed. God gives us the grace to help us do His will.
His "will" would be anything good that we do here on earth.

It is rather that He works in me "to will and do HIs good pleasure. (Phillipiams 2:13)

You're replying to this statement of mine:
Or does God have to force HIS will on you?
Your answer.....that God is working in you.....agrees with me.
Are you aware that the reformed believe that God does indeed force you to do His will?

I'm not sure if you just don't follow the reformed faith, or if you don't really know it.

And why do I say this? Because I think you're not smart?
NO!! It's because many go to reformed churches and the pastor purposefully DOES NOT teach the true doctrine for fear of scaring some away. I'm never sure, then, if what you're learning is the truth of the reformed doctrine.

I also believe God is working in me.....
But I DO NOT believe He forces me to do anything beyond my desire.....this is libertarian free will.

When I sin, it is my decision to rebel against my maker and follow my natural desire. I own my sin and if it weren't for being clothed in Jesus' righteousness, I would rightfully deserve God's wrath, i.e. hell.

OK and herein is the problem in a nutshell.....:
You accept responsibility for your sin. You sound like a mainstream Christian and not a reformed Christian.

So my question is this:
Does your church teach determinism? Does it teach that God has predetermined - predestined - everything from beginning to end?

IF THEY HAVE: Then God is definitely responsible for your sin and you should be absolved of fall if God is a just God.

IF THEY HAVE NOT: Then you may not be going to a reformed church.

I think that what some of these reformed churches are doing is sneaky and untruthful and this should not exist in Christianity.
Teachings should be clear.

Personally, in all the Reformed authors I've read, I have never heard anything remotely similar to this taught. I have often heard it from anti-Calvinist explaining it is the logical conclusion of Calvinism. Interestingly enough, for many years I thought the same.

You're responding to this statement of mine:
Calvinism makes all sinning that takes place the responsibility of GOD....and removes all culpability from us.

As I've already stated above.....Calvinism teaches that God predestined or predestinated everything....this being so...then, yes, ALL SINNING BECOME THE RESPONSIBILITY OF GOD, since HE predestined everything.

If you've never heard this in your church, I can understand...imagine saying this to a congregation.
Unfortunately, this is the end result of believing God predestines all. Maybe some personal study should be involved in accepting this faith? Since you say you've never heard it....maybe you don't even believe it?

First, I think when Jesus said we are to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect, He was not referring to God being complete in His desires - not even sure what that would mean - but rather Holy to the degree God is Holy. In Christ, we are able to stand before God perfect, clothed in the Holiness of our Lord. (Philippians 3:9) Secondly, given my natural desire toward sin, I shudder to think of the person I'd be if I were complete in my own desires. There is nothing attractive in the thought.

There's misunderstanding here but is a different topic that I won't get into right now.

Never have figured out how I can be joyful and not happy. I've heard it taught the two can be split, but I find the explanations woefully unconvincing.

Joy and happiness are two different feelings.
You may find the explanation unconvincing, but nevertheless it is true.

Does God make you happy or does He bring you joy?
Are you happy all the time because you know God?
How do you feel when you bring home the new car of your choice?
Happy or joyful?

What's the difference?
These are rhetorical question for your consideration.
I do not need a reply...I know the replies, but if you wish to discuss.OK.

I think in the passage "doing good" is defined as what God desires us to do. I think my understanding is more straightforward than yours. I also think God calls me to go "beyond" what I can handle; it makes me that much more needy of Him.

Oh. I see. I thought the bible taught the God does not give us more than we could handle....
And when we go beyond what God wants...do we maybe get burned out?

So if God wants you to do good....
but He predestined everything (calvinist teaching)
then if someone kills someone....how is that doing good?

Your understanding is not more straightforward than mine....
in more ways than one.
Again, can't get into this on this thread....

You can't go getting all upset because I quote Augustine and then quote Augustine! Let's be fair!

Was I upset? Can't be.....
What I'm upset with are those churches that are not truthful.
Other than that a person is free to believe what they believe....I'd just love to understand better how they could read into verses what is not there.....

 

[atpollard]

Its a man made term.

So is Trinity.
Does being a man made term make the concept false?

 

[atpollard]

treat or operate with or as if with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner

[Pro 21:1 NASB] 1 The king's heart is [like] channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Do these mean the same thing?
One is what the dictionary says and the other is what God does.

 

[atpollard]

When did the Prodigal Son begin to live? When HE, of his own free will, decided to return to the house of his father. He realized what a mistake he made leaving his father's home and went back.

1. The father in the parable was speaking metaphorically and not literally. The son was never physically dead and never became physically alive again. If you are going to argue that the son was spiritually dead and became spiritually alive again, then you are also arguing that he did it 100% on his own and we do not need a savior, we just need to save ourselves ... like the son did using his own free will and personal strength.
2. [Luke 15:17 NASB] 17 "But when he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have more than enough bread, but I am dying here with hunger!
   • Commentary from Matthew Henry:
     • A sinful state is a state of madness and frenzy. This is intimated in that expression (v. 17), when he came to himself, which intimates that he had been beside himself. Surely he was so when he left his father's house, and much more so when he joined himself to the citizen of that country. Madness is said to be in the heart of sinners, Eccl. 9:3. Satan has got possession of the soul; and how raging mad was he that was possessed by Legion! Sinners, like those that are mad, destroy themselves with foolish lusts, and yet at the same time deceive themselves with foolish hopes; and they are, of all diseased persons, most enemies to their own cure.
   • I propose that God alone has the power to cure the spiritual blindness that affects the lost. That is why Ephesians 2 describes how God makes us alive while we were still dead. God made the first move by healing the “insanity” that had blinded the Prodigal Son. Regeneration precedes faith.
     • [Act 2:37 NASB] 37 Now when they heard [this,] they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"
     • [Act 16:14 NASB] 14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

 

[JLB]

So is Trinity.
Does being a man made term make the concept false?

I agree that’s why I don’t use Trinity.

I use Godhead.