Free Will is a Fallen Will

[Not_Now.Soon]

Do you believe that a person who is born again, can wander away from Him and become lost?



JLB

I don't know. I've read scripture that says once you're with Jesus He'll keep you and nothing can take you away. But then I've also read from Paul's letters of some people who left the Christian community, and Paul said they were never really saved. Add that with the idea that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord," is really a follower.

There are different philosophies and perspectives for both sides. I honestly don't like to think on it too much, because there are too many ways for doubt to creep in. I have to hope on Jesus. If it's on me, then I have no stable hope.

 

[JLB]

I don't know. I've read scripture that says once you're with Jesus He'll keep you and nothing can take you away. But then I've also read from Paul's letters of some people who left the Christian community, and Paul said they were never really saved. Add that with the idea that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord," is really a follower.

There are different philosophies and perspectives for both sides. I honestly don't like to think on it too much, because there are too many ways for doubt to creep in. I have to hope on Jesus. If it's on me, then I have no stable hope.

Jesus truly loves you.

He leads us in the way of life, righteousness and love.

David understood this.


The Lord is my shepherd;
I shall not want.
He makes me to lie down in green pastures;
He leads me beside the still waters.
He restores my soul;
He leads me in the paths of righteousness
For His name’s sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil;
For You are with me;
Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.
Psalm 23:1-4

• He leads me beside the still waters. He restores my soul;

Many of the choices we have made in our life have us led to broken hearts, and confusion, and anxiety, this is not what the Lord would have for us.

There is a way that seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death. Proverbs 14:12


His desire for us is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

He gives us His Spirit, to lead us, to comfort us, to empower us to live and follow Him, in the way of Life.


Each of us has a choice to walk according to the Spirit, in the way of righteousness and truth and peace, and Life, or walk according to the desires of our flesh, doing what the flesh desires to do.


Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8


I’m like you, in that without the Lord’s grace and power in my life to help me, I am lost, and without hope.

Thank God we have His Spirit in us, to empower us to overcome the sinful desires of the flesh, and do what is right in His eyes.



JLB

 

[Hospes]

You're replying to this statement of mine:
Or does God have to force HIS will on you?
Your answer.....that God is working in you.....agrees with me.
Are you aware that the reformed belief that God does indeed force you to do His will?

Wondering, there is a basic courtesy that should be employed between people when arguing a point. We should always use the language of our opponent when describing their beliefs so that we do not project - intentionally or unintentionally - onto our opponent's position our own spin. To not do so is unfair to our opponent and just stirs up dissension. Case in point: I have no problem saying God causes me to do His will, but using your word "force" as you do above is not how I would write it and carries the baggage of coerciveness that I do not see anywhere in my Reformed beliefs. If you do not see how my Reformed theology can avoid God being coercive toward people, I'd suggest there may be something you are not seeing from my perspective.

I truly believe your motive is good, but opening the door to the possibility - per your words below - that I either don't understand Reformed theology as well as you, or I am under the sway of deceptive teachers, is quite patronizing. Recall that I am 59 years old and was redeemed by our Lord 44 years ago. I guess what I am saying is this is - as we say in Arizona - not my first rodeo.

I'm not sure if you just don't follow the reformed faith, or if you don't really know it.

And why do I say this? Because I think you're not smart?
NO!! It's because many go to reformed churches and the pastor purposefully DOES NOT teach the true doctrine for fear of scaring some away. I'm never sure, then, if what you're learning is the truth of the reformed doctrine.

Hope this does not cause any rift between you and me. That would hurt my chances of winning you over to Reformed doctrine. (That last sentence was totally meant as kidding. )

 

[LovethroughDove]

Godhead, as used in Scripture, does not mean Trinity, One God in three ‘persons’. So you have no word to describe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit all being One God.

I use Love, Light and Holiness.

1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

1 Peter 1:16 for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

Then we are called to become part of God, but they are above us (the Godhead)

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering, there is a basic courtesy that should be employed between people when arguing a point. We should always use the language of our opponent when describing their beliefs so that we do not project - intentionally or unintentionally - onto our opponent's position our own spin. To not do so is unfair to our opponent and just stirs up dissension. Case in point: I have no problem saying God causes me to do His will, but using your word "force" as you do above is not how I would write it and carries the baggage of coerciveness that I do not see anywhere in my Reformed beliefs. If you do not see how my Reformed theology can avoid God being coercive toward people, I'd suggest there may be something you are not seeing from my perspective.

I truly believe your motive is good, but opening the door to the possibility - per your words below - that I either don't understand Reformed theology as well as you, or I am under the sway of deceptive teachers, is quite patronizing. Recall that I am 59 years old and was redeemed by our Lord 44 years ago. I guess what I am saying is this is - as we say in Arizona - not my first rodeo.

Hope this does not cause any rift between you and me. That would hurt my chances of winning you over to Reformed doctrine. (That last sentence was totally meant as kidding. )

No rift Hospes....


Let's do it this way.....

Do you agree with the following:

“he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.”

Calvin’s Institutes, Book 3 Chapter 23 paragraph 6.

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering, there is a basic courtesy that should be employed between people when arguing a point. We should always use the language of our opponent when describing their beliefs so that we do not project - intentionally or unintentionally - onto our opponent's position our own spin. To not do so is unfair to our opponent and just stirs up dissension. Case in point: I have no problem saying God causes me to do His will, but using your word "force" as you do above is not how I would write it and carries the baggage of coerciveness that I do not see anywhere in my Reformed beliefs. If you do not see how my Reformed theology can avoid God being coercive toward people, I'd suggest there may be something you are not seeing from my perspective.

I truly believe your motive is good, but opening the door to the possibility - per your words below - that I either don't understand Reformed theology as well as you, or I am under the sway of deceptive teachers, is quite patronizing. Recall that I am 59 years old and was redeemed by our Lord 44 years ago. I guess what I am saying is this is - as we say in Arizona - not my first rodeo.

Hope this does not cause any rift between you and me. That would hurt my chances of winning you over to Reformed doctrine. (That last sentence was totally meant as kidding. )

P.S.
Just to be clear...
I'm not going to go back and reread what I wrote,,,
but if it gave you the impression that I was saying that I understand calvinism better than you do...then I apologize because that's not what I meant.

There are different types of calvinists - this doesn't make it easy to have a discussion - when there is no standard.

And I do know for sure that some churches, especially down south, are doing what I mentioned....

 

[atpollard]

Please share the scripture that says Godhead doesn’t mean Trinity.

You ask me to prove a negative ... Show me a scripture that says Godhead doesn’t mean “cottage cheese”.

Please share the scripture using “godhead” to mean “... one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another, and that of the Holy Spirit still another. But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.” [from the Athanasian Creed]

The word “godhead” does not appear at all in either the NIV, ESV or NASB Bibles. It is found 3 or 4 times in the KJV, WEB and YLT Bibles (all of which predate the American Civil War and use archaic words). If you think that some particular passage uses the word “godhead” to mean the three-in-one LORD Almighty, then feel free to present it and we can look at the word being translated.

 

[atpollard]

They refers to antichrists, the object of his last statement, are the ones who went out from “us”.

There is a popular writer that once claimed to be Reformed and pastored a large church that has changed his position, embraced gay activism, taken a same-sex partner in marriage and claims to have turned his back on his former beliefs. Setting aside his ultimate destiny (which is none of my business and above my pay grade), would it be more realistic to describe his condition as a “backsliding saint that has not yet repented and returned to Christ” or as some who has “rejected the Son and walked away from the Church” ... which John described as an “antichrist”.

Yes, John was talking about antichrists ... those who reject Christ and walk away are AGAINST CHRIST. Like goats or tares, they may have been AMONG us, but they were never, ever sheep or wheat.

John taught that those who walk away from the Church (as distinct from those who struggle with sin and repent) were never saved. Only God sees the heart, so only God knows the difference ... but that does not mean that there is no difference.

 

[JLB]

Show me a scripture that says Godhead doesn’t mean “cottage cheese”.

Exactly. Thanks for seeing my point.

Cottage cheese is not a biblical word, just a Trinity isn’t a biblical word.


Godhead is a biblical word.


JLB

 

[JLB]

There is a popular writer that once claimed to be Reformed and pastored a large church that has changed his position, embraced gay activism, taken a same-sex partner in marriage and claims to have turned his back on his former beliefs. Setting aside his ultimate destiny (which is none of my business and above my pay grade), would it be more realistic to describe his condition as a “backsliding saint that has not yet repented and returned to Christ” or as some who has “rejected the Son and walked away from the Church” ... which John described as an “antichrist”.

I don’t know who you are talking about, and don’t know him personally.


What I do know is, ”My sheep” refers to God children.

Antichrists refers to people who are not God’s children.


I believe we can at least agree on this.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The word “godhead” does not appear at all in either the NIV, ESV or NASB Bibles.

The word “godhead” does not appear at all in either the NIV, ESV or NASB Bibles. It is found 3 or 4 times in the KJV, WEB and YLT Bibles (all of which predate the American Civil War and use archaic words). If you think that some particular passage uses the word “godhead” to mean the three-in-one LORD Almighty, then feel free to present it and we can look at the word being translated.

How many times does the word Trinity appear in the NASB, NIV OR ESV, versions?



JLB

 

[JLB]

If you think that some particular passage uses the word “godhead” to mean the three-in-one LORD Almighty, then feel free to present it and we can look at the word being translated.

Do you believe Jesus Christ is the Lord God?

Do you believe His Father is God?

Do you believe the Holy Spirit is God?


Do you believe these three are one?




JLB

 

[atpollard]

Godhead is a biblical word.

So is “justified”, but that does not mean the same thing as “trinity” or “triune God” and neither does the Bible when it uses “godhead”.

Find a verse and look up the Greek word translated “godhead” so you can see for yourself what the original word means.

There is nothing “spiritual” about completely redefining an archaic English word used to represent a completely different concept in Greek, over using the anglicized version of the Latin term that has been used for millennia to describe that exact same English concept ... One God = Father & Son & Spirit.

You proudly claim that you do not make up terms but use Biblical terms, but the truth is that you misuse those Biblical terms when you change their meaning.

 

[JLB]

So is “justified”, but that does not mean the same thing as “trinity” or “triune God” and neither does the Bible when it uses “godhead”.

Find a verse and look up the Greek word translated “godhead” so you can see for yourself what the original word means.

There is nothing “spiritual” about completely redefining an archaic English word used to represent a completely different concept in Greek, over using the anglicized version of the Latin term that has been used for millennia to describe that exact same English concept ... One God = Father & Son & Spirit.

You proudly claim that you do not make up terms but use Biblical terms, but the truth is that you misuse those Biblical terms when you change their meaning.

What Biblical term have I misused?

What Biblical term have I changed the meaning of?



JLB

 

[atpollard]

Do you believe Jesus Christ is the Lord God?

Do you believe His Father is God?

Do you believe the Holy Spirit is God?

Do you believe these three are one?

JLB

How does that change the definition of “godhead” as the word is used in the KJV Bible to translate a specific Greek word?

Since you asked, I believe ...

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another, and that of the Holy Spirit still another. But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has. The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, the Holy Spirit is uncreated. The Father is immeasurable, the Son is immeasurable, the Holy Spirit is immeasurable. The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings; there is but one eternal being. So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings; there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, the Holy Spirit is almighty. Yet there are not three almighty beings; there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. Yet there are not three gods; there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, the Holy Spirit is Lord. Yet there are not three lords; there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us to confess each person individually as both God and Lord, so the universal religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone. The Son was neither made nor created; he was begotten from the Father alone. The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten; he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers; there is one Son, not three sons; there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after, nothing is greater or smaller; in their entirety the three persons are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So in everything, as was said earlier, we must worship their trinity in their unity and their unity in their trinity. Anyone then who desires to be saved should think thus about the trinity.

 

[JLB]

So is “justified”, but that does not mean the same thing as “trinity” or “triune God” and neither does the Bible when it uses “godhead”.

Find a verse and look up the Greek word translated “godhead” so you can see for yourself what the original word means.

There is nothing “spiritual” about completely redefining an archaic English word used to represent a completely different concept in Greek, over using the anglicized version of the Latin term that has been used for millennia to describe that exact same English concept ... One God = Father & Son & Spirit.

You proudly claim that you do not make up terms but use Biblical terms, but the truth is that you misuse those Biblical terms when you change their meaning.

For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
Colossians 2:9 NASB

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
Colossians 2:9 NKJV


Godhead - Strongs G2320 - theotēs

1. deity
   1. the state of being God, Godhead

From the root word Theos


Do you believe Jesus Christ is the Lord God?
Do you believe His Father is God?
Do you believe the Holy Spirit is God?


Do you believe these three are one?

Is there three Gods or one God?


Does Deity or Godhead refer to The Father the Word and the Spirit or just one of these?




JLB

 

[atpollard]

How many times does the word Trinity appear in the NASB, NIV OR ESV, versions?

I have never claimed that the word “Trinity” appears in the Bible, to your question is foolishness, however you have claimed that the Bible uses “godhead” to mean the same thing as “Trinity” ... which is simply not true.

 

[JLB]

How does that change the definition of “godhead” as the word is used in the KJV Bible to translate a specific Greek word?

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
Colossians 2:9


Does the fullness of the Godhead refers to the Father or the Holy Spirit or the Word, or all three?



JLB

 

[JLB]

I have never claimed that the word “Trinity” appears in the Bible, to your question is foolishness, however you have claimed that the Bible uses “godhead” to mean the same thing as “Trinity” ... which is simply not true.

I use the word Godhead not Trinity.




JLB

 

[atpollard]

For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
Colossians 2:9 NASB

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
Colossians 2:9 NKJV

Godhead - Strongs G2320 - theotēs

1. deity
   1. the state of being God

Colossians 2:9 uses the term “theotēs” (godhead/deity) to affirm that Jesus is God, which is not the same as affirming that the Father, Son and Spirit are all One God in three persons.

Here is Thayer’s explanation:

STRONGS NT 2320: θεότης
θεότης, -ητος, ἡ, (deitas, Tertullian, Augustine [de 104 Dei 7, 1]), deity i. e. the state of being God, Godhead: Colossians 2:9. (Lucian, Icar. 9; Plutarch, de defect. orac. 10, p. 415 c.)

So Jesus is indeed the LORD (I AM of OT fame).
Scripture teaches about a triune godhead, but “theotēs” just means “deity” and Colossians 2:9 just says that Jesus is Deity.

That is not the same thing as Trinity, so when YOU use the words as equal, you have redefined “theotēs” (godhead) to mean more than “deity”.