Free Will is a Fallen Will

[atpollard]

Your insinuating that a God turns the heart of all mankind to be saved or not be saved, when it addresses the king, and specifically the king who wrote the proverb.

You really have not been paying attention to what Reformed Theology (or I) have been teaching. God does not turn hearts to be “not saved”. For one thing, God has no need to. Sheep are capable of getting lost completely on their own, the Shepherd does not need to “help the sheep wander off”. All men, like sheep, have gone astray. God only needs to turn a heart to save someone ... to carry His sheep home on His shoulders. God only needs to write His Law on the heart of those to be saved, the heart of sinners already knows how to sin. God only needs to give His Children the power to obey, the children of the devil already have the strength to do evil.

 

[JLB]

Who are “the children of men” and are they also clearly the ones that have “all turned aside”, “together become corrupt” and of whom none “does good”; “not one”?

The fool who says in his heart, there is no God.

 

[JLB]

Sheep are capable of getting lost completely on their own, the Shepherd does not need to “help the sheep wander off”.

His sheep are capable of getting lost.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Do you have something to indicate that God manipulates the King’s heart, but all other hearts are off-limits?

Philippians 2:13 explicitly credits God as the source for manipulating the heart of all believers to DESIRE and to DO according to the wishes of God. Why do you choose to strain gnats over the “king’s heart” and completely ignore the confirmation from the Apostle Paul? Why can you not believe what scripture says and trust that God is good and all his works are for your good?

Again, you read into the scripture your own preconceived theology, while ignoring the context.


Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
Philippians 2:12-13

God gives us grace but we must choose to yield to His will, and obey Him.

At the end of the day, this is who will be given eternal life.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9





JLB

 

[atpollard]

Again, you read into the scripture your own preconceived theology, while ignoring the context.

Your personal view of “context” negates the literal meaning of the written words. Scripture says that “it is God who works in you both to will and to do” but you ‘contextualize’ it to really mean that God DOES NOT WORK IN YOU, because God requires you to work in yourself. You are guilty of what you accuse others.

 

[atpollard]

His sheep are capable of getting lost.

Context.

[Luk 15:1-3 NASB] 1 Now all the tax collectors and the sinners were coming near Him to listen to Him. 2 Both the Pharisees and the scribes [began] to grumble, saying, "This man receives sinners and eats with them." 3 So He told them this parable, saying,

 

[atpollard]

The fool who says in his heart, there is no God.

The Apostle Paul says that you are wrong.

[Rom 3:9-12 NASB] 9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

 

[GodsGrace]

First, I have to smile a bit at the irony whenever a non-Calvinist tells me as a Calvinist what Calvinist believe.

If your question is do I believe God is sovereign over everything, then yes, I believe this.

Calvinism has a standard set of beliefs.
If you don't agree with all of them, then perhaps you're not a calvinist?

If I tell you I'm Catholic (which I'm not) it means I have a standard set of beliefs....I can't then turn around and say the person is imposing beliefs on me...which is what you're doing.

I also believe God is sovereign.
GOD IS SOVEREIGN.
Anyone who does not believe this is a little off in his thinking.

However, I do not believe God predestined everything, including WHO would be saved.

IF God had predestined everything, HE would be responsible for all the sin in the world -- including all the evil man does.

And why would Jesus tell us to be perfect in
Matthew 5:28 if He knew it didn't depend on us?

And why would Jesus explain about the man who build his house on a rock if He knew it wasn't up to us to decide where to build our house?
Matthew 7:24-27
24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25“And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”

And why would Jesus call those that do not hear His words a FOOLISH MAN If He knew that it was God's determination as to where one built his house? How is one FOOLISH for doing what God predetermined him to do?

Calvinism just makes no logical sense.

 

[GodsGrace]

Perhaps you could point out where you ANTI-Calvinists used something other than personal opinions devoid of any support, or vague references to “the writings of other men” to correct my misunderstanding, because I can’t seem to find a single scripture verse or point of exegesis in ANY of these responses from you’all ...





What I do find are LOTS of accusations made against me that at first glance appear to be false.

Shame on both of you.

This is what you do:
You post a verse that you like.
You explain what it means.
Then I tell you why I don't agree.

You keep bringing up Augustine,,,in whom I am not interested at all. Calvinism is gnostic in nature. To know this we MUST use church history which goes back to the beginning.

However, my posts contain scripture and not writings of Iraneaus,
Polycarp, Ingatiius of Antioch, Clement of Rome,,,etc. ALL the early church fathers did NOT believe in anything remotely similar to calvinist beliefs.

Although the reformation started out with this doctrine,,,,most denominations have left those doctrine because they do not make logical sense...to say nothing of how scripture must be twisted to make it conform to calvinism.

Why have you not yet explained what compatible free will is?

I'll explain it here for those reading along that may not know,,,and then you could tell me how I "don't understand" calvinism.....

LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL
One makes a moral decision based on no interference from an external source, but based solely on his own beliefs and desires.

COMPATIBLE FREE WILL
God cause those Whom He desires to save to have the same will He has and to thus enforce it in His chosen persons.
IOW....a person has no true free will but is compelled to do what God desires that person to do....


This is from Calvin's Institutes:

without the Spirit the will of man is not free, inasmuch as it is subject to lusts which chain and master it. And again, that nature began to want liberty the moment the will was vanquished by the revolt into which it fell. Again, that man, by making a bad use of free will, lost both himself and his will. Again, that free will having been made a captive, can do nothing in the way of righteousness. Again, that no will is free which has not been made so by divine grace. Again, that the righteousness of God is not fulfilled when the law orders, and man acts, as it were, by his own strength, but when the Spirit assists, and the will (not the free will of man, but the will freed by God) obeys. He briefly states the ground of all these observations, when he says, that man at his creation received a great degree of free will, but lost it by sinning. In another place, after showing that free will is established by grace, he strongly inveighs against those who arrogate any thing to themselves without grace. His words are, “How much soever miserable men presume to plume themselves on free will before they are made free, 230or on their strength after they are made free, they do not consider that, in the very expression free will, liberty is implied. ‘Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty,’ (2 Cor. 3:17). If, therefore, they are the servants of sin, why do they boast of free will? He who has been vanquished is the servant of him who vanquished him. But if men have been made free, why do they boast of it as of their own work? Are they so free that they are unwilling to be the servants of Him who has said, ‘Without me ye can do nothing’?” (John 15:5). In another passage he even seems to ridicule the word, when he says,156 “That the will is indeed free, but not freed—free of righteousness, but enslaved to sin.” The same idea he elsewhere repeats and explains, when he says, “That man is not free from righteousness save by the choice of his will, and is not made free from sin save by the grace of the Saviour.” Declaring that the freedom of man is nothing else than emancipation or manumission from righteousness, he seems to jest at the emptiness of the name. If any one, then, chooses to make use of this term, without attaching any bad meaning to it, he shall not be troubled by me on that account; but as it cannot be retained without very great danger, I think the abolition of it would be of great advantage to the Church. I am unwilling to use it myself; and others if they will take my advice, will do well to abstain from it.

Source: Calvin's Institutes 2.7

Basically it declares that we can do nothing good without God's intervention. So anyone wanting to become saved...can only do so IF God so wills it. The jailer in Acts 16 wanted to know how to be saved....a Calvinist answer would be that he could do nothing, but wait to see IF GOD saves him.

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you have something to indicate that God manipulates the King’s heart, but all other hearts are off-limits?

Philippians 2:13 explicitly credits God as the source for manipulating the heart of all believers to DESIRE and to DO according to the wishes of God. Why do you choose to strain gnats over the “king’s heart” and completely ignore the confirmation from the Apostle Paul? Why can you not believe what scripture says and trust that God is good and all his works are for your good?

Philippians 2:13
13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

How to reconcile this with the statement just above it?

Philippians 2:12
12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

To say nothing of what comes immediately after:

Philippians 2:14
14Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,

2:13
God Himself, through the Holy Spirit, works in us to do what would please God. It states that God is AT WORK within us,,,I do not see the word MANIPULATE in this verse. You seem to ADD to what verses are saying instead of explaining them.

Jesus said He would send THE HELPER.
John 16:7
7“But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

God HELPS us to do what He desires from us...
He does not MANIPULATE our heart....


2:12

Paul is saying that while he is away we are to do EVEN MORE SO the things that God would desire from us..
WHY all these exhortations IF it is GOD that manipulates our heart? How is this logical ?
IF I am under God's total comman ... is it not HIM that decides if I obey or not...if I do those things that He desires or not?


2:14

I should not grumble?
So I could be presented blameless?
DITTO.
IF God has chosen me....how could I possibly be presented with blame?
WHY these exhortations?


It would be nice to get an answer to this.

IF GOD DECIDES EVERYTHING...
I can only do what HE allows me to do.

IF GOD DOES NOT DECIDE EVERYTHING
Then, yes, Paul is correct in teaching me how to live as God would want me to.

 

[GodsGrace]

Let’s “FACT CHECK” this accusation.

Here is what I posted ...

Note within MY post my personal statement of belief:

• “God MAKES US want to obey ... and grants us the strength to obey.”

Note that I offered scripture to support my opinions:

• [Proverbs 21:1] “He turns it wherever He wishes.” which is a reference to God controlling the heart of men and support for the belief that God makes us want to obey”.
• [Philippians 2:13] “both to will and to work” which is a reference to God as the source of BOTH our desire to obey Him (to will) and our having the strength to obey Him (to work).

Thus scripture supports MY CLAIM that God makes us want to obey and grants us the strength to obey.

A common accusation that I have been subjected to is that I follow the 16th Century teachings of a man named Calvin and ignore the 1500 year teachings that the church has universally believed and were handed down by the Early Church Fathers. While I do not follow the teachings of John Calvin, except to the extent that whatever John Calvin wrote agrees with Reformed Baptist theology that I developed from reading scripture at a Church of God (a thoroughly non-reformed denomination), John and I are in agreement. However I have never read any of his writings, personally. I have read the Westminster Confession of Faith and the London Confession of Faith and the Southern Baptist Faith and Message and the Heidelberg Catechism, but all of those came after reaching the Reformed Baptist view from scripture. So I thought that I would include a quote from an Early Church Father that completely agreed with my scriptural claim that God makes us want to obey and grants us the strength to obey, and offered support from Augustine of Hippo. I have not generally read his writings either, but just happened to know this particular quote because those that responded in disagreement to it were eventually declared HERETICS by the Catholic Church. I just knew the quote because it was pivotal in Church History.

So where in my post have I relied on the “traditions of Calvinism” as you have accused me?

Here is her response to my post ...

Where has she used scripture (as you claim she has)?

When I claim she refuses to accept scripture, how is that claim demonstrably untrue?

So an examination of the facts reveals your claim ...

... to be UNTRUE.

Atpollard,,,
I didnt' use scripture that time because I was complaining to you that you do not answer my posts but keep bringing up Augustine.

Please reply to my posts....I've asked you this several times.
I ALWAYS reply to your verses....
When I give you one...you just throw a different one back at me.
That's verse ping pong -- not very productive.

And these type posts are a waste of time.

 

[GodsGrace]

If you will reread my statement, I did not say that YOU were a Roman Catholic (and I am aware that there are other types). I said that I place SCRIPTURE above TRADITION (including the ECFs) and that is why I am REFORMED and why I am not ROMAN CATHOLIC (and I deliberately meant Roman Catholic).

I'm sure you noticed my exhaustion at hearing about Augustine again. I respond to Augustine because Calvinism is based on his beliefs,,,I KNOW THIS...but I also know that those that came BEFORE him,,,which is 400 years worth DID NOT AGREE WITH HIM.

It's a plea to you to stop speaking about him...and perhaps you could come to know how he was an agnostic and how AGNOSTICS believed what Calvin taught. I said that even the reformers abandoned determinism since it is not found in scripture. They had different ideas at the time of the reformation, but it has now settled down I believe....and even a couple of hundred years ago.

If you notice, I plead with you to stick to scripture.

And if you've never read the Institutes of Calvin, maybe you should? I find them rather horrifying to tell you the truth.

Just a small personal fact, but I heard the GOSPEL from a group of Catholic Charismatics while I was a violent gang member. It was a discussion with a Priest during the preparations for the Feast of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin that I learned about the Catholic Church (whose Pope is in Rome) placing tradition about Mary above the scripture that I had just read about Jesus’ mother and brothers coming to visit him. At that point I knew that I could not accept tradition over scripture, so I could never become a member of the Catholic Church. Thus my statement was both about me personally and completely literal. If I could accept tradition over scripture, I would be Roman Catholic today. Because I placed scripture above tradition, I came to embrace the Doctrines of Grace that are taught in scripture ... which I later learned were sometimes called Calvinism.

How does one use the term "doctrine of grace" in the same sentence with the word Calvinism?

Grace: God's love, God's favor toward us, His creation, which is not merited. His plan for our salvation. His preparing a place for those who love Him. His desire to have all His creation saved.
What does determinism have to do with the above?
What does 1 Timothy 2:4 mean if not what it states?

Guilty as charged. I will be first to admit that I do not CARE what the Church Fathers taught. I care about what the actual Apostles wrote in the New Testament that changed my heart and life. In truth, I don’t care what Polycarp or Augustine or Calvin or Luther wrote as much as I care about whether or not their words agree with what Luke and Peter and John and Paul wrote.

Well atpollard...
who knew Jesus more....Luther, Calvin
or those that were taught by the Apostles...those that put together the bible for us...you SHOULD care what they taught...and they DID NOT teach determinism and unconditional election.j They taught what the Apostles taught.

However, my point is that Calvin came along 1,500 years AFTER Jesus and the Apostles --- why was his belief never accepted before? Perhaps because it's wrong?

Why change the very nature of God when
God is Love
1 John 4:8

God is merciful
Mark 6:34

God is just
Acts 10:34-35

Ancient Church Traditions were just a reference to the pre 1500 Church teachings and the writings of the Early Church Fathers. I apologize if I misunderstood, but you seem to care a great deal about the teachings of the Early Church Fathers and how things were done before Luther.

I care about church history. I had to know it.
Also ancient church traditions are NOT a reference to pre 1,500.
Early church traditions USUALLY refer to 325 AD and before.
Some theologians go to about 600 AD but in the opinion of most,,,this is already to late. Teachings were infected with man's ideas by that time.

The bible is my authority and I find no contradiction between the bible and the ECFs ---- pre 325AD.

And now, can we stick to scripture?

 

[JLB]

The Apostle Paul says that you are wrong.

[Rom 3:9-12 NASB] 9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

Paul is making a point that Jews are no better than Gentiles, because all are under sin and need a Savior.


You do understand his point, right?


All men need a Savior, not just Gentiles.


Can we agree on this?




JLB

 

[JLB]

And now, can we stick to scripture?

:amen

 

[atpollard]

Why have you not yet explained what compatible free will is?

You have already made up your mind about what both Calvinism and Compatible Free Will is. No matter what I say Calvinism teaches, you insist that it teaches something else.

As far as Compatible Free Will is concerned, I do not believe in it ... so I feel no obligation to explain what I believe scripture does not support.

If you are really interested, here is something from PBS:

On DETERMINISM vs FREE WILL ...

On COMPATIBILISM ...

 

[atpollard]

This is from Calvin's Institutes:

The 5 points of Calvinism comes from the Synod of Dort and not from the writings of John Calvin. Therefore what you quoted is NOT the basis for Calvinism.

Of course, you have been told this before and continue to ignore this inconvenient truth. It is ironic that you (an anti-Calvinist) spend more time reading and quoting the “Institutes” by John Calvin than me (a 5-point Calvinist). As stated before, I don’t care what any man has to say, I care what scripture has to say.

 

[atpollard]

The jailer in Acts 16 wanted to know how to be saved....a Calvinist answer would be that he could do nothing, but wait to see IF GOD saves him.

That would not be a Calvinist answer.

Ephesians 2 and Romans 3 and John 3 and John 6 and John 10 and many, many more places all teach us that no person WANTS to be saved while they are dead in their sins until God grants them the gift of faith ... which opens the door to the grace of salvation. So the fact that the jailer would ask is evidence that the Father was already drawing him to Christ.

You are not very good at answering for Calvinists.

 

[GodsGrace]

The 5 points of Calvinism comes from the Synod of Dort and not from the writings of John Calvin. Therefore what you quoted is NOT the basis for Calvinism.

Of course, you have been told this before and continue to ignore this inconvenient truth. It is ironic that you (an anti-Calvinist) spend more time reading and quoting the “Institutes” by John Calvin than me (a 5-point Calvinist). As stated before, I don’t care what any man has to say, I care what scripture has to say.

Again, you don't answer my post.

Which of the 5 points did Calvin NOT believe to be true?

This thread is about free will.
Should I believe the YouTube videos you sent...
or should I believe what the Institutes teaches about free will?

I'll watch them a little later and will reply.
But, again, I posted scripture in a long post..I hope you answer to that.

And yes, I DO read the institutes....
I don't like learning from YouTube or the net.
I like to go straight to the source and see for myself.

 

[GodsGrace]

That would not be a Calvinist answer.

Ephesians 2 and Romans 3 and John 3 and John 6 and John 10 and many, many more places all teach us that no person WANTS to be saved while they are dead in their sins until God grants them the gift of faith ... which opens the door to the grace of salvation. So the fact that the jailer would ask is evidence that the Father was already drawing him to Christ.

You are not very good at answering for Calvinists.

Why not?
The jailer was told:

BELIEVE IN THE LORD JESUS AND YOU WILL BE SAVED.
Acts 16:31

IOW,,, IF the jailer believes in the Lord, He will be saved.

My Calvinist answer is correct:
"God will decide if you can be saved or not".

Please explain by one of your verses, by exegeting it, why my answer is not correct. (my Calvinist answer)...

Thanks.

 

[atpollard]

How to reconcile this with the statement just above it?

The question is ...
How do you reconcile the statement “it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.” with the verses before and after in a way that does not negate the meaning of these words?

• Is God at work in you?
• Does God make you “will”?
• Does God make you “do”?
• Is it according to God’s purpose (good pleasure) or your purpose (good pleasure)?