Free Will is a Fallen Will

[JLB]

Right, because what difference does it make what a verse is really talking about as long as you can make your point by proof texting it.

Exactly, the fullness of the Godhead refers to Father, Word and Holy Spirit.


For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7


The fullness of the one God, Father, Word, and Spirit, dwelt in Him bodily.


Unless you believe that the fullness of the Godhead really means part of it, as if God is divided somehow.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Ok, you win.
The Father is really Jesus.
The Holy Spirit is really Jesus.
The Son is really Jesus.

The FULLNESS of the GODHEAD (FATHER, SON and HOLY SPIRIT) are all found incarnate in the person of Jesus.
You convinced me, now to get my sharpie and correct all those verses that got the Trinity all wrong ... like Mark 1:10-11. ?

All I know is Trinity in not found in the scriptures, along with
Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement,
Irresistible Grace, Perseverance of the Saints, Eternal Security, and on and on and on...


Man made words to prop up a man made doctrine.



JLB

 

[jerry63935]

It is ironic that the people that are so anxious to discuss the free will of man to make choices in every other topic, are so silent in the topic created to address the issue head on.

nahhhh i have discussed this so many time i lost count. i even done a E mail correspondence with a manhe as disabled has parkinson . he finally gave up .i belong to carm forum.i use to post a lot there .till i kicked there Golden cow over. i been called false teacher straw man theology. free will theology gives them heartburn

 

[jerry63935]

Man made words to prop up a man made doctrine.

exactly i been trying to say that for some time the Bible does not say you will lose your salvation ..nor does it say your so eternally secure you can not lose it. there are instructions in scriptures given to us. its like a lady i talked to she was missionary baptist . but yet did not know the difference between gen baptist ans missionary. i explained it to her. she started saying hers was Bible.. i told her she was dealing with
interpretation.this is what it is with all doctrines i have mine and you have yours . sad thing in carm you use body has many members .. majority is calvinist

 

[GodsGrace]

atpollard

Hi atpollard,,,,
I have a question for you:
If God predestined everything (if this is what you believe)
could you explain why He made any bi-lateral covenants.

I've been thinking about this.
Hope to be back later.

 

[atpollard]

atpollard

Hi atpollard,,,,
I have a question for you:
If God predestined everything (if this is what you believe)
could you explain why He made any bi-lateral covenants.

I've been thinking about this.
Hope to be back later.

I think the answer depends on what you mean when you say “God predestined”.

If you are asking me ... “Did God KNOW BEFOREHAND that Adam and Eve were going to eat the fruit”, then I would say YES, because an Omniscient God knows everything and their act of sin did not catch God by surprise.

If you are asking me ... “Did God ALLOW Adam and Eve to eat the fruit”, then I would say YES, because an Omnipotent God could have certainly taken actions to stop Adam and Eve from sinning if God had wanted to. Where was the Angel with the flaming sword to block their access to the first tree, as an example.

If you are asking me ... “Was the fact that Adam and Eve were going to eat the fruit always part of God’s plan for mankind, or was the death of Jesus a ‘divine plan B’ needed to clean up Adam and Eve derailing God’s ‘plan A’ ”, then I would say YES, a Sovereign God works out everything according to the good pleasure of His will. Which is just a fancy way of saying that God always gets His PLAN A.

On the other hand, if you are asking me if God FORCED Adam and Eve to eat that fruit, if God is responsible for creating the evil desires within Adam and Eve and if God is really the one responsible for the sinful choices made by Adam and Eve, then I would answer “NO” (or as Paul would say “MAY IT NEVER BE!”) That is not “predestination”.

To the specific question you asked: Have you ever allowed your children to attempt something that you knew they could not do? If so, then why did you do it? (Perhaps God has similar reasons for what He does with His children).

 

[JLB]

exactly i been trying to say that for some time the Bible does not say you will lose your salvation .

A Christian can certainly become lost.


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20



JLB

 

[JLB]

If you are asking me ... “Was the fact that Adam and Eve were going to eat the fruit always part of God’s plan for mankind, or was the death of Jesus a ‘divine plan B’ needed to clean up Adam and Eve derailing God’s ‘plan A’ ”, then I would say YES, a Sovereign God works out everything according to the good pleasure of His will. Which is just a fancy way of saying that God always gets His PLAN A.

So you are saying that is was God’s plan (predestinatio) to have Adam and Eve eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and disobey Him?



JLB

 

[jerry63935]

A Christian can certainly become lost.


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20



JLB

exactly i been trying to say that for some time the Bible does not say you will lose your salvation ..nor does it say your so eternally secure you can not lose it. there are instructions in scriptures given to us. please note we imply that it says that . i dont argue one can or can not a true child of God will return.the Holy spirit will deal with that heart convict chastise . a man i know for several years was trying to bank on left field theology.had strayed away from the truth. then this virus hit he got things fixed with God. we all have our interpretations but ultimately it s God who has the finial say
Romans 2:16

“In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.”

we can know if we have eternal life i am glad i know

 

[JLB]

exactly i been trying to say that for some time the Bible does not say you will lose your salvation

Actually the term “lose your salvation” is not mentioned in the Bible, which is why Calvinist love to refer to that phrase.


If a brother in Christ becomes lost, they are no longer reconciled to God and are lost; ie are sinners, dead spiritually, will not inherit the kingdom of God, unless they repent and turn back to God.

IOW a brother in Christ who becomes lost will go to hell if he doesn’t repent.


The Bible is crystal clear on this matter.



JLB

 

[JLB]

we can know if we have eternal life i am glad i know

Amen. Me too.

 

[atpollard]

So you are saying that is was God’s plan (predestinatio) to have Adam and Eve eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and disobey Him?

JLB

[John 1:1-18 NASB]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.​

​

There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. He was not the Light, but [he came] to testify about the Light.​

​

There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, [even] to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.​

​

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. John testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'" For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained [Him.]​

... this was God’s PLAN A and not a PLAN B.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think the answer depends on what you mean when you say “God predestined”.

If you are asking me ... “Did God KNOW BEFOREHAND that Adam and Eve were going to eat the fruit”, then I would say YES, because an Omniscient God knows everything and their act of sin did not catch God by surprise.

If you are asking me ... “Did God ALLOW Adam and Eve to eat the fruit”, then I would say YES, because an Omnipotent God could have certainly taken actions to stop Adam and Eve from sinning if God had wanted to. Where was the Angel with the flaming sword to block their access to the first tree, as an example.

If you are asking me ... “Was the fact that Adam and Eve were going to eat the fruit always part of God’s plan for mankind, or was the death of Jesus a ‘divine plan B’ needed to clean up Adam and Eve derailing God’s ‘plan A’ ”, then I would say YES, a Sovereign God works out everything according to the good pleasure of His will. Which is just a fancy way of saying that God always gets His PLAN A.

On the other hand, if you are asking me if God FORCED Adam and Eve to eat that fruit, if God is responsible for creating the evil desires within Adam and Eve and if God is really the one responsible for the sinful choices made by Adam and Eve, then I would answer “NO” (or as Paul would say “MAY IT NEVER BE!”) That is not “predestination”.

To the specific question you asked: Have you ever allowed your children to attempt something that you knew they could not do? If so, then why did you do it? (Perhaps God has similar reasons for what He does with His children).

Hey atpollard,,,,
I wasn't asking about predestination....
but about the covenants...and particular ones.

Since you brought this up...
please explain the difference between your two paragraphs below:

If you are asking me ... “Was the fact that Adam and Eve were going to eat the fruit always part of God’s plan for mankind, or was the death of Jesus a ‘divine plan B’ needed to clean up Adam and Eve derailing God’s ‘plan A’ ”, then I would say YES, a Sovereign God works out everything according to the good pleasure of His will. Which is just a fancy way of saying that God always gets His PLAN A.

On the other hand, if you are asking me if God FORCED Adam and Eve to eat that fruit, if God is responsible for creating the evil desires within Adam and Eve and if God is really the one responsible for the sinful choices made by Adam and Eve, then I would answer “NO” (or as Paul would say “MAY IT NEVER BE!”) That is not “predestination”.

If I understand correctly.....
The fact that God had always PLANNED that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit and it was God's plan for makind....

Is EXACTLY THE SAME as God FORCED THEM TO EAT IT.

As YOU would say,,,God is sovereign, and if HE PLANS SOMETHING...
it will surely come to pass.

So...
There is no difference in the above two paragraphs.
GOD either PLANNED for them to eat the fruit or He stayed out of their choice.


Also,

If God planned everything,,,however you want to understand predestination...

WHY DID HE MAKE BI-LATERAL COVENANTS WITH MAN?

That is my real question.

 

[atpollard]

So...
There is no difference in the above two paragraphs.
GOD either PLANNED for them to eat the fruit or He stayed out of their choice.

I disagree.
There IS a difference between God knowing/allowing an event and using it as part of His plan (like Joseph’s brother’s selling him into slavery) and God placing those evil desires into their heart.

 

[atpollard]

WHY DID HE MAKE BI-LATERAL COVENANTS WITH MAN?

That is my real question.

To teach us this ...

Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, "You must not covet." But sin used this command to arouse all kinds of covetous desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power. At one time I lived without understanding the law. But when I learned the command not to covet, for instance, the power of sin came to life, and I died. So I discovered that the law's commands, which were supposed to bring life, brought spiritual death instead. Sin took advantage of those commands and deceived me; it used the commands to kill me. But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good.
​

But how can that be? Did the law, which is good, cause my death? Of course not! Sin used what was good to bring about my condemnation to death. So we can see how terrible sin really is. It uses God's good commands for its own evil purposes. ​

​

So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. I don't really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don't do it. Instead, I do what I hate. But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it. ​

​

And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. I want to do what is right, but I can't. I want to do what is good, but I don't. I don't want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. But if I do what I don't want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it. ​

​

I have discovered this principle of life--that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. I love God's law with all my heart. But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God's law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin. [Romans 7:7-25 NLT]​

 

[GodsGrace]

I disagree.
There IS a difference between God knowing/allowing an event and using it as part of His plan (like Joseph’s brother’s selling him into slavery) and God placing those evil desires into their heart.

I agree.

But you listed the above as a different paragraph with which I DO agree.

Allowing is not the same as causing.

I know you won't go back and reread,,,,
but the above does NOT answer my question about the LAST TWO PARAGRAPHS being exactly the same in concept,,,only the WORDING is different.

 

[GodsGrace]

To teach us this ...

Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, "You must not covet." But sin used this command to arouse all kinds of covetous desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power. At one time I lived without understanding the law. But when I learned the command not to covet, for instance, the power of sin came to life, and I died. So I discovered that the law's commands, which were supposed to bring life, brought spiritual death instead. Sin took advantage of those commands and deceived me; it used the commands to kill me. But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good. ​

​

But how can that be? Did the law, which is good, cause my death? Of course not! Sin used what was good to bring about my condemnation to death. So we can see how terrible sin really is. It uses God's good commands for its own evil purposes. ​

​

So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. I don't really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don't do it. Instead, I do what I hate. But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it. ​

​

And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. I want to do what is right, but I can't. I want to do what is good, but I don't. I don't want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. But if I do what I don't want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it. ​

​

I have discovered this principle of life--that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. I love God's law with all my heart. But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God's law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin. [Romans 7:7-25 NLT]​

So if YOU, atpollard knows the above,,,,
Did GOD not know it?
He went ahead and made bi-lateral covenants anyway?

Was the law not sufficient to teach man the above???
GOD had to make a COVENANT????????

No, this does not make sense.
Can't come up with a good reason, can you?

P.S. I don't mean that in a snarky way...
it's an honest question.

 

[JLB]

[John 1:1-18 NASB]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.​

​

There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. He was not the Light, but [he came] to testify about the Light.​

​

There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, [even] to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.​

​

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. John testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'" For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained [Him.]​

... this was God’s PLAN A and not a PLAN B.

Where is the answer to my question in your post?


So you are saying that is was God’s plan (predestination) to have Adam and Eve eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and disobey Him?


It’s really just a yes or no answer.


Just trying to understand what you are saying.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I disagree.
There IS a difference between God knowing/allowing an event and using it as part of His plan (like Joseph’s brother’s selling him into slavery) and God placing those evil desires into their heart.

God allows evil to happen.
I think all Christians agree with this.
But He does NOT CAUSE evil to happen....

If God placed evil desires into the hearts of Joseph's brothers...then HE CAUSED t he evil to happen.

IF God PLANS SOMETHING,,,then HE CAUSES IT TO HAPPEN.

I would like to understand how you can't see this difference.

(even though it wasn't my original questions).

 

[GodsGrace]

To teach us this ...

Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, "You must not covet." But sin used this command to arouse all kinds of covetous desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power. At one time I lived without understanding the law. But when I learned the command not to covet, for instance, the power of sin came to life, and I died. So I discovered that the law's commands, which were supposed to bring life, brought spiritual death instead. Sin took advantage of those commands and deceived me; it used the commands to kill me. But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good. ​

​

But how can that be? Did the law, which is good, cause my death? Of course not! Sin used what was good to bring about my condemnation to death. So we can see how terrible sin really is. It uses God's good commands for its own evil purposes. ​

​

So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. I don't really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don't do it. Instead, I do what I hate. But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it. ​

​

And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. I want to do what is right, but I can't. I want to do what is good, but I don't. I don't want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. But if I do what I don't want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it. ​

​

I have discovered this principle of life--that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. I love God's law with all my heart. But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God's law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin. [Romans 7:7-25 NLT]​

See my post no. 227

The above is not a good answer to my question....
I mean, it does NOT answer my question.