Free Will is a Fallen Will

[JLB]

Colossians 2:9 uses the term “theotēs” (godhead/deity) to affirm that Jesus is God, which is not the same as affirming that the Father, Son and Spirit are all One God in three persons.

Colossians 2:9 uses the term “theotēs” (godhead/deity) to affirm that Jesus is God, which is not the same as affirming that the Father, Son and Spirit are all One God in three persons.

Here is Thayer’s explanation:

STRONGS NT 2320: θεότης
θεότης, -ητος, ἡ, (deitas, Tertullian, Augustine [de 104 Dei 7, 1]), deity i. e. the state of being God, Godhead: Colossians 2:9. (Lucian, Icar. 9; Plutarch, de defect. orac. 10, p. 415 c.)

So Jesus is indeed the LORD (I AM of OT fame).
Scripture teaches about a triune godhead, but “theotēs” just means “deity” and Colossians 2:9 just says that Jesus is Deity.

That is not the same thing as Trinity, so when YOU use the words as equal, you have redefined “theotēs” (godhead) to mean more than “deity”.

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
Colossians 2:9


Does the fullness of the Godhead refer to the Father or the Holy Spirit or the Word, or all three?



JLB

 

[atpollard]

[Col 2:9 NLT] 9 For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body.

 

[atpollard]

[Col 2:9 NIV] 9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

 

[atpollard]

[Col 2:9 ESV] 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

 

[atpollard]

[Col 2:9 CSB] 9 For the entire fullness of God's nature dwells bodily in Christ,

 

[atpollard]

[Col 2:9 NASB] 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

 

[atpollard]

[Col 2:9 NET] 9 For in him all the fullness of deity lives in bodily form,

 

[atpollard]

[Col 2:9 RSV] 9 For in him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily,

 

[atpollard]

Jesus is not just part God (like Hercules), Jesus is 100% God in a human body. That is what Colossians 2:9 is saying. While it is true and it is important, it is not the same as saying “One God = 3 persons”. If all three persons of the Godhead dwell in Jesus (in the flesh), then there is no “Godhead”, is there. There is only Jesus as God.

 

[JLB]

[Col 2:9 NLT] 9 For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body.

[Col 2:9 RSV] 9 For in him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily,

[Col 2:9 NET] 9 For in him all the fullness of deity lives in bodily form,

Does the fullness of God, refer to the Father or the Holy Spirit or the Word, or all three?




JLB

 

[JLB]

Jesus is not just part God (like Hercules),

?

Thank you for an insightful answer to a question nobody has asked.



JLB

 

[JLB]

If all three persons of the Godhead dwell in Jesus (in the flesh), then there is no “Godhead”, is there. There is only Jesus as God.

Total gibberish.


For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
Colossians 2:9


God the Father, the Word and Holy Spirit dwell in Christ.


If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him”.
John 10:37-38


For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7



JLB

 

[Hospes]

Do you agree with the following:

“he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.”

Calvin’s Institutes, Book 3 Chapter 23 paragraph 6.

Yes.

Admittedly, for many years as a believer, I found this doctrine terribly uncomfortable and offensive. I felt much better with the idea that it was I who made the determinative choice to follow Jesus. It felt good to me to think I was the person who ultimately determined my eternity and that others were, in the same way, responsible for themselves. It put me on the hook for my salvation and God off the hook for others' damnation. Felt quite comfortable. In this doctrinal comfort, the only disturbance to it was due to my pursuit of fidelity to Scripture. I would read passages and find myself doing mental/logical contortions to avoid what was clearly being taught. Here are some examples:
Romans 9:14–23
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means!
For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
John 9:1–3
As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.
Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” [ I can almost hear all the free-willers say "See! It says "ALL"!, while scooting around the unambiguous meaning and implications of Jesus' words "and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."]
Isaiah 43:6-7
I will say to the north, Give up, and to the south, Do not withhold; bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the end of the earth, everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.
Ephesians 2:8–10
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. [I could not reconcile how I could not have any credit, i.e. boast, in my salvation if I had, of my own free will, made the determinative choice to follow Jesus.]

There are many, many, other passages like these that eventually made me admit to - and be offended by - the obvious: God chose me and He chooses others all for the display of His glory. What offended me was the realization that God has as His highest value His own glory. I wanted mankind to be God's highest value. Also, to admit that I am but a pot to be used by my creator as He sees fit was deeply offensive to my own self-importance. (I had been taught many years that I, along with the rest of humanity, was the center of God's universe.) Finally, I was offended by my lack of autonomy; I wanted to be the person who rocked my own world, not God. I wanted to be the person who ultimately determined my destiny. I wanted to be God of my own life.

Over time, God incrementally moved me through offense to greater joy. I don't mean the neutered "joy" people have convinced themselves has no inkling of the pleasure of happiness; I mean emotional, heart satisfying, joy/happiness. The joy that makes one long for heaven more than more time on earth. The type of joy that leads one to agree that "to die is gain." The type of joy that sustains a person through sorrow and the deepest grief. Part of this joy is tied to my increasing sense of gratitude. I realize now more deeply how I don't deserve the great mercy God has shown me in Christ. I, a thoroughly corrupted creature of an infinitely good Being and fully deserving His damnation, was chosen to be given Jesus' perfect righteousness and be adopted as His son. I am grateful.

Now since I have unequivocally answered your gotchya question regarding Calvin's passage, may I assume I am relegated to the ranks of those awful Calvinists?

 

[JLB]

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means!
For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Romans 9:14-24


A couple things to consider here.


1. The context of Romans 9 is dealing with God’s choice, from whom the bloodline of the Messiah would come. This is about choosing and predestination for purpose, based on the foreknowledge of God.


I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. Romans 9:1-5

The greater context which these chapters are couched in, began in Chapter 2, where Paul is making a legal argument to the Jewish Christian Community in Rome, concerning their mindset that they are superior to the Gentiles because they are of the chosen race, being natural descendants of Abraham.


Example:


Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.
For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
Romans 2:4-16


Key Passage:


But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath



Here we see clearly the choice that we all, Jew and Gentile, must make in this life to receive eternal life on that Day.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:


God will render to each person according to their deeds, not according to Him choosing who will be saved and who will be damned.


to be continued




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Romans 9:14-24


A couple things to consider here.


1. The context of Romans 9 is dealing with God’s choice, from whom the bloodline of the Messiah would come. This is about choosing and predestination for purpose, based on the foreknowledge of God.


I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. Romans 9:1-5

The greater context which these chapters are couched in, began in Chapter 2, where Paul is making a legal argument to the Jewish Christian Community in Rome, concerning their mindset that they are superior to the Gentiles because they are of the chosen race, being natural descendants of Abraham.


Example:


Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.
For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
Romans 2:4-16


Key Passage:


But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath



Here we see clearly the choice that we all, Jew and Gentile, must make in this life to receive eternal life on that Day.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:


God will render to each person according to their deeds, not according to Him choosing who will be saved and who will be damned.


to be continued




JLB

Great post !

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes.

Admittedly, for many years as a believer, I found this doctrine terribly uncomfortable and offensive. I felt much better with the idea that it was I who made the determinative choice to follow Jesus. It felt good to me to think I was the person who ultimately determined my eternity and that others were, in the same way, responsible for themselves. It put me on the hook for my salvation and God off the hook for others' damnation. Felt quite comfortable. In this doctrinal comfort, the only disturbance to it was due to my pursuit of fidelity to Scripture. I would read passages and find myself doing mental/logical contortions to avoid what was clearly being taught. Here are some examples:

Hospes,
I still find these teachings offensive...not to me, but to God.
Jesus came as the ultimate revelation of God....the God of love, mercy and justice. The teachings of calvinism, as it is called nowadays, does not demonstrate these qualities in God. I have often thought that it is close to blasphemous to attribute to God the attributes that sound more demon-like than God-like.

What kind of a God would create humans,,,,and then banish them to hell for doing what HE predestined them to do?? Is that Love, mercy or justice?

I see verse twisting on the other side of my fence. Funny, isn't it?
God, who is not a God of confusion, has two of His creatures arguing about His attributes. Does this not make for a God of confusion?

Let's take your verses one at a time...

Romans 9:14–23
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means!
For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

Chapter 9, 10 and 11 in Romans is directed to the nation of Israel.
Just see how chapter 9 begins...Paul has continual pain in his heart for his Jewish brethren and wishes he could be cursed instead of them. God CHOSE, or ELECTED Israel from whom to reveal Himself. These chapters are about how God used the Jews and how the Gentiles have accepted the gospel and will be joined to them.

God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.
See Exodus 33:13
13“Now therefore, I pray You, if I have found favor in Your sight, let me know Your ways that I may know You, so that I may find favor in Your sight. Consider too, that this nation is Your people.”

Moses is asking God to let hiim KNOW GOD'S WAYS so that Moses might find favor in God's eyes. Also, God is to consider the Israelites as His people.

This transpired after Moses told God that he didn't know which persons to bring with him since God had not let him know yet, and that God was to let him understand what He wanted so that Moses could obey. Exodus 33:12.....

God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy based on the person ACCEPTING God's CONDITIONS. THIS is justice and love...the opportunity to be saved.

The potter refers back to Jeremiah 18....
God is telling Jeremiah that the clay pot that turned out wrongly and was smashed...God will also do the the enemies of Israel, unless the evil nation spoken of renounces its ways.

This scripture has nothing to do with personal salvation...
and what is being spoken of is regarding Isreal,,,not persons.

You might be interested in the following if you haven't already read it.

Romans 9-11: A New View of the Doctrine of Election

kgsvr.net

John 9:1–3
As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.

What is your understanding of this?
That God purposefully made the man blind so Jesus could heal him?

There were plenty of blind and sick persons as there are today...
why did God make all those that are NOT healed??

I'm hoping this is not your understanding of John 9:1-3

Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” [ I can almost hear all the free-willers say "See! It says "ALL"!, while scooting around the unambiguous meaning and implications of Jesus' words "and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."]

Actually I don't scoot around any of Jesus' words.
There is however, some conflict in Jesus bringing to God and God bringing to Jesus if the reformed faith is correct. Here's why:

John 6:37 Also states that all the Father give to Jesus will go to Him.
37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.



John 14:6 states that no one can go to the Father except through Jesus.
6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Jesus said both statements.
Which one is right?
Did Jesus contradict Himself?
How do YOU rectify these two opposing statements?

Isaiah 43:6-7
I will say to the north, Give up, and to the south, Do not withhold; bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the end of the earth, everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.

Don't understand your point.
It's speaking about the exiled Jews.


part 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

Hospes

part 2 of 2

Ephesians 2:8–10
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. [I could not reconcile how I could not have any credit, i.e. boast, in my salvation if I had, of my own free will, made the determinative choice to follow Jesus.]

But H....it says we have been saved BY GRACE through the mechanism of FAITH....faith is a gift given to all who will receive God's grace....God offers...we accept.

The boasting in Ephesians 2:8-10 has to do with boasting about our works and how our works saved us....this was chosen by Luther as one of his favorite verses (if not the favorite) to contest the RCCs teaching of salvation by works.

God prepared that we are to walk in HIS good works beforehand...not our self-righteous good works.

You made NO CHOICE in following Jesus?
How on earth did you come to be saved?
(no reply really necessary)

There are many, many, other passages like these that eventually made me admit to - and be offended by - the obvious: God chose me and He chooses others all for the display of His glory. What offended me was the realization that God has as His highest value His own glory. I wanted mankind to be God's highest value. Also, to admit that I am but a pot to be used by my creator as He sees fit was deeply offensive to my own self-importance. (I had been taught many years that I, along with the rest of humanity, was the center of God's universe.) Finally, I was offended by my lack of autonomy; I wanted to be the person who rocked my own world, not God. I wanted to be the person who ultimately determined my destiny. I wanted to be God of my own life.

You had started a thread on this (regarding glory) about 2 or 3 years ago. Now I realize why.

So you think God needs glory? The creator of the universe needs man to recognize His glory and to understand how glorious God is?

Now THAT is offensive, in my opinion.
How is it self-importance that you choose to worship God?
Doesn't Romans 6:16 state that we are slaves to the one to whom we present ourselves? So isn't it a good thing to present ourselves to God? I don't think this is self-importance...I think it's what God wants from us.
John 3:16

God wants all men to be saved....but they must choose HIS procedure....
1 Timothy 2:4
, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


If someone feels proud over this good choice...it is THEIR problem...most Christians feel grateful that Jesus died for their wretched self.

Over time, God incrementally moved me through offense to greater joy. I don't mean the neutered "joy" people have convinced themselves has no inkling of the pleasure of happiness; I mean emotional, heart satisfying, joy/happiness. The joy that makes one long for heaven more than more time on earth. The type of joy that leads one to agree that "to die is gain." The type of joy that sustains a person through sorrow and the deepest grief. Part of this joy is tied to my increasing sense of gratitude. I realize now more deeply how I don't deserve the great mercy God has shown me in Christ. I, a thoroughly corrupted creature of an infinitely good Being and fully deserving His damnation, was chosen to be given Jesus' perfect righteousness and be adopted as His son. I am grateful.

Gosh Hospes,,, most Christians I know are aware of the difference between happiness and joy.

Again, this is a personal understanding and has nothing to do with soteriology.

Now since I have unequivocally answered your gotchya question regarding Calvin's passage, may I assume I am relegated to the ranks of those awful Calvinists?

LOL
I'll tell you exactly how I feel about calvinists.
I've found (on other sites) that most are how YOU describe yourself BEFORE you were calvinist.

I find them to be very proud of themselves...
I find that they have no patience in discussing biblical passages.
I find them to be rather mean-hearted and difficult to speak to.
So they do nothing of good to those on their side of the fence...they're a very poor example of calvinists.

You, and another member here, are very nice and very calm in discussing this.

So, no, I don't relegate you to any rank other than that of a sincere Christian.

I just have a really difficult time understanding how you could think of God as just sending people to hell with no chance of salvation.

 

[atpollard]

Total gibberish.

Ok, you win.
The Father is really Jesus.
The Holy Spirit is really Jesus.
The Son is really Jesus.

The FULLNESS of the GODHEAD (FATHER, SON and HOLY SPIRIT) are all found incarnate in the person of Jesus.
You convinced me, now to get my sharpie and correct all those verses that got the Trinity all wrong ... like Mark 1:10-11. ?

 

[atpollard]

?
Thank you for an insightful answer to a question nobody has asked.

JLB

Right, because what difference does it make what a verse is really talking about as long as you can make your point by proof texting it.

 

[JLB]

Ok, you win.
The Father is really Jesus.
The Holy Spirit is really Jesus.
The Son is really Jesus.

The FULLNESS of the GODHEAD (FATHER, SON and HOLY SPIRIT) are all found incarnate in the person of Jesus.
You convinced me, now to get my sharpie and correct all those verses that got the Trinity all wrong ... like Mark 1:10-11. ?

If all the fullness of God dwells in Jesus Christ bodily, wouldn’t that include The Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit?


What does the fullness of God mean to you?

Only God the Father?


JLB