Free will or no free will?

[Vic C.]

Just for kicks, everyone does know that in Ephesians 2:8 which says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" that the last part is saying that salvation (not faith) is not of ourselves, which makes sense theologically and can be corroborated in the Greek,

Josh, I am WELL aware of that and get beat down by one person or another every time I bring it up. :-D I believe we are ALL given faith but some misplace that faith.

Psalm 20:7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.

 

[golfjack]

reply

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen ( Heb. 11:1). This is the only definition of faith found in the Bible, and it is not complete. FFaith reaches beyond the natural realm of man's ability to possess. For example, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith.... to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge ( Eph. 3:17-20). The love of Christ in its fulness is beyond human comprehension; it is unknown and unknowable by the greatest minds of mankind. Yet, by faith, the most humble believer can begin to know the love of Christ, which cannot intellectually be understood.

Faith unlocks the promises of God. Heaven is just part of salvation. We can be blessed beyond measure. We can be healed by His stripes. We can be delivered of things that are blocking the blessings of God. We can be redeemed of the cuurse of poverty, sickness, and spiritual death. All the things of God requires faith. Well, where do we find this things? In God's will for us, which is His Word, ( the Bible). If one can find the things he wants from in His Word, then by speaking faith words, he can have it. Study Mark 11:23-24, which says to believe and speak to those mountains of sickness, poverty, and whatever God has said in His Word. Try it, it works.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[cyberjosh]

Josh, I am WELL aware of that and get beat down by one person or another every time I bring it up. I believe we are ALL given faith but some misplace that faith.

God does not give us the very faith that we then ineviatably apply to believe in Him - because that would be him force feeding us faith. By virtue of just Him being our creator who gave us a complex and wonderful mind which can make decisions of its own gives Him credit for us even having the inherent ability or potential to make such a choice (whether to believe or reject Him) so in that sense God gives us all things but our streching out and application of our ability to have faith (the fulfilling of the positive potential - and rejecting the negative potential) is on our end while we have the perfect free will to reject Him, and this is why not all are chosen among those who are called - because some do not accept God. God wouldn't call people only to fail to follow up by giving them the "proper faith" which they need in order to even accept that call. Else God's will would be fulfilled every time and no one would be lost.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Veritas]

these are great posts to read through. Thanks guys! 8-)

 

[Bubba]

Now let us go to the Bible and see if It tells us where faith comes from. Heb 12:2 says "...Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith". And Rom 12:3 says " ... God has allotted to each a measure of faith." These two verses clearly tell us that faith is not something that we do or a presence of mind that we develop, but that faith is a gift from God. Rom 10:17 says " ... faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of Christ." So faith is a gift from God that we receive from the word of Christ which in this dispensation we get from the Bible rather than from a burning bush. So in His time He will allot faith to us as needed from the word of the Bible. In 2 Cor 10:15 we see that faith can grow, so as we study the Bible God can add to our faith.

Rom 5:1 says, " ... justified by faith" and Rom 4:5 says, " ... his faith is counted as righteousness". We clearly see from these verses that faith is not of our doing for that would be a works based salvation and we know from Eph 2:8,9 that salvation is surely not from works. ... Rom 3:28 also says, " ... a man is justified by faith." We read in Rom 9:32 that Israel did not arrive at righteousness because they did not pursue righteous by faith but as though it were by works. If we must muster up our own faith then justification is by works and again we know that is not correct. We also see in Heb 12:2 that " ...Jesus is the author and perfecter of faith." which fits in nicely with what we have already seen. Jesus is not only the author -- the originator of faith --; He is also the one who perfects it in us.

So we see that faith is a free gift from God and comes to us at our salvation (Rom 5:1 and Rom 4:5). In Acts 14:27 we read that Jesus had opened a door of faith to the Gentiles meaning that salvation was now freely available to all through Christ. In Acts 17:31 we read " ... having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead." The underlined two words come from the same Greek word that is elsewhere interpreted as faith but in a different tense. Thus it is like a verb and could read " ... having faithed to all men ...". When God gives faith to people, He faiths to us the absoluteness of the truth of Christ.

Rom 9:30-32 tells us that righteousness is by faith. Rom 10:6-10 again tells us that the origin of righteousness is faith, and since all Baptists should say that salvation is not by works then we must also say that faith is not by our works lest we should boast. Matt 21:21 is an oft-quoted scripture but read it carefully. It says that if we have faith and doubt not then everything that we ask in prayer, believing, we will receive. How do we get what we pray for? First it has to be based on faith and we have seen where that comes from. So first God has to tell us that something will come to pass. Then we act on that faith with a believing heart and we can do so without doubt for God has said so, then the event will come to pass. This is like in the Old Testament when God first told His people that the battle had been won, and all they had to do was act it out.

Leon Combs

 

[mondar]

Heb. 11:6 But without faith it isimpossible to please him....

Of course the old nature is not able to "please God."
Rm. 8:7-8 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Let me set this up as a syllogism

Proposition 1--- Faith pleases God
Proposition 2--- The old nature cannot please God.
Conclusion The old nature does not generate faith.

Is it then fair to say that the old nature does not generate faith?

 

[Vic C.]

I have two questions for anyone; what is Scripture suggesting here?


Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

and here?

1 Cor 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1 Cor 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;


Thanks

 

[Bubba]

I have two questions for anyone; what is Scripture suggesting here?


Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

and here?

1 Cor 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1 Cor 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;


Thanks

Vic,
One thing for sure, faith is a gift, be it saving faith, great faith to sustain one in difficult times, or faith in miraculous healing.
Here is what Matthew Henry says in regards to 1 Corinthians 12:8-9:

12:1-11 Spiritual gifts were extraordinary powers bestowed in the first ages, to convince unbelievers, and to spread the gospel. Gifts and graces greatly differ. Both were freely given of God. But where grace is given, it is for the salvation of those who have it. Gifts are for the advantage and salvation of others; and there may be great gifts where there is no grace. The extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit were chiefly exercised in the public assemblies, where the Corinthians seem to have made displays of them, wanting in the spirit of piety, and of Christian love. While heathens, they had not been influenced by the Spirit of Christ. No man can call Christ Lord, with believing dependence upon him, unless that faith is wrought by the Holy Ghost. No man could believe with his heart, or prove by a miracle, that Jesus was Christ, unless by the Holy Ghost. There are various gifts, and various offices to perform, but all proceed from one God, one Lord, one Spirit; that is, from the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, the origin of all spiritual blessings. No man has them merely for himself. The more he profits others, the more will they turn to his own account. The gifts mentioned appear to mean exact understanding, and uttering the doctrines of the Christian religion; the knowledge of mysteries, and skill to give advice and counsel. Also the gift of healing the sick, the working of miracles, and to explain Scripture by a peculiar gift of the Spirit, and ability to speak and interpret languages. If we have any knowledge of the truth, or any power to make it known, we must give all the glory of God. The greater the gifts are, the more the possessor is exposed to temptations, and the larger is the measure of grace needed to keep him humble and spiritual; and he will meet with more painful experiences and humbling dispensations. We have little cause to glory in any gifts bestowed on us, or to despise those who have them not.

 

[MarkT]

Therefore, God's foreknowledge and will does use the godless. God's foreknowledge does not excuse away our responsibility. We are still active participants. God's foreknowledge is not a script that we unknowingly play out.

But we do. That's just the point. Unknowingly, because they didn't know God, they crucified his Son. They didn't know his Word who was Christ so it followed that they didn't know God. And this was God's will. Everything that happened was predetermined. And yes, everyone is playing out their part.

The theological position and the argument for freewill is irrelevant to God. However, Satan is counting on it. The question isn't whether man has freewill or not. The question is how should we respond to Satan. Remember Eve wouldn't listen to God. When we forget God and stop listening to him, then Satan reminds us that we can be disobedient. His argument is you can act without God. Eve did. But we know better. It's all God's will. Listen to God and he will direct our steps and deliver us from evil.

 

[Bubba]

Summary of the Sovereignty of God in Salvation

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By John Piper December 10, 1997


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Salvation is not finally in the hands of man to determine. His choices are crucial, but they are not the final, decisive power in bringing him to glory, God’s sovereign grace is.

1. God elects, chooses, before the foundation of the world whom he will save and whom he will pass by and leave to unbelief and sin and rebellion. He does this unconditionally, not on the basis of foreseen faith that humans produce by a supposed power of ultimate self-determination (= “free willâ€Â).

Acts 13:48, “When the gentiles heard this they were glad and glorified the word of God. And as many as were for ordained to eternal life believed.â€Â

Romans 11:7, “Israel failed to obtain what is sought. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened.â€Â

John 6:37, “All that the Father gives to me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will not cast out.†John 17:6, “I have manifested my name to them whom thou gavest me out of the world; thine they were, and thou gavest them to me.†(John 6:44, 65).

2. The Atonement applies to the elect in a unique, particular way, although the death of Christ is sufficient to propitiate the sins of the whole world. The death of Christ effectually accomplished the salvation for all God’s people.

Eph. 5:25, “Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.â€Â

Heb. 10:14, “By a single offering he perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.â€Â

John 10:15, “I lay down my life for the sheep.â€Â

Rom. 8:32, “He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how shall he not with him freely give us all things?â€Â

3. Because of the Fall, humans are incapable of any saving good apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. We are helpless and dead in sin. We have a mindset that “cannot submit to God without divine enabling.

Rom. 8:7-8, “The mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, it does not submit to God’s law; indeed it cannot. But you are not in the flesh; you are in the Spirit if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you.â€Â

Eph. 2:1,5, “You were dead through your trespasses and sins.â€Â

4. God’s call to salvation is effectual, and, hence His grace cannot be ultimately thwarted by human resistance. God’s regenerating call can overcome all human resistance.

Acts 16:14, “The Lord opened her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul.â€Â

John 6:65, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted to him by my Father.†(Matt. 16:17; Luke 10:21)

1 Cor. 1:23-24, “We preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ, the power of God and the wisdom of God.â€Â

5. Those whom God calls and regenerates He also keeps, so that they do not totally and finally fall away from faith and grace.

Rom. 8:30, “Those whom he predestined, he also called and those whom he called he also justified and those whom he justified he also glorified.â€Â

John 10:27-29, “My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me; and I give them eternal life and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.â€Â

Phil. 1:6, “I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Christ Jesus.†(1 Cor. 1:8).

1 Thess. 5:23, “May the God of peace himself sanctify you whly, and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful and he will do it.â€Â

Conclusion

Romans 11:36, “From him, through him, and to him are all things, to him be glory forever amen!â€Â

 

[Drew]

God elects, chooses, before the foundation of the world whom he will save and whom he will pass by and leave to unbelief and sin and rebellion. He does this unconditionally, not on the basis of foreseen faith that humans produce by a supposed power of ultimate self-determination

If God really elects unconditionally, then He elects by random chance. There is simply no other alternative if we are to have a description of God that is in any sense meaningful to us.

Do you really mean that God elects without consideration to anything at all that is characteristic of the person? If so, then you are forced into a position where God elects based on "rolling dice".

God elects Fred but passes Joe over. How does God choose between Fred and Joe? Well, by conceptual necessity, He must use something about them to base such a choice on, or He rolls dice. What makes Fred "not Joe". Obviously something about Fred.

 

[Bubba]

Drew,
I think you will find your answers in this passage, if you are serious about the truth of God's soveriegnty in salvation. Pay special attention to the bold parts.

Ephesians 1:1-11
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:
2Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love
5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight
9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him
10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him
11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

So, yes God chose Himself a people for no other reason then His good pleasure.
Bubba

 

[MarkT]

Salvation is not finally in the hands of man to determine. His choices are crucial, but they are not the final, decisive power in bringing him to glory, God’s sovereign grace is.

1. God elects, chooses, before the foundation of the world whom he will save and whom he will pass by and leave to unbelief and sin and rebellion. He does this unconditionally, not on the basis of foreseen faith that humans produce by a supposed power of ultimate self-determination (= “free willâ€Â).

Acts 13:48, “When the gentiles heard this they were glad and glorified the word of God. And as many as were for ordained to eternal life believed.â€Â

Romans 11:7, “Israel failed to obtain what is sought. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened.â€Â

John 6:37, “All that the Father gives to me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will not cast out.†John 17:6, “I have manifested my name to them whom thou gavest me out of the world; thine they were, and thou gavest them to me.†(John 6:44, 65).

2. The Atonement applies to the elect in a unique, particular way, although the death of Christ is sufficient to propitiate the sins of the whole world. The death of Christ effectually accomplished the salvation for all God’s people.

Eph. 5:25, “Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.â€Â

Heb. 10:14, “By a single offering he perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.â€Â

John 10:15, “I lay down my life for the sheep.â€Â

Rom. 8:32, “He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how shall he not with him freely give us all things?â€Â

3. Because of the Fall, humans are incapable of any saving good apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. We are helpless and dead in sin. We have a mindset that “cannot submit to God without divine enabling.

Rom. 8:7-8, “The mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, it does not submit to God’s law; indeed it cannot. But you are not in the flesh; you are in the Spirit if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you.â€Â

Eph. 2:1,5, “You were dead through your trespasses and sins.â€Â

4. God’s call to salvation is effectual, and, hence His grace cannot be ultimately thwarted by human resistance. God’s regenerating call can overcome all human resistance.

Acts 16:14, “The Lord opened her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul.â€Â

John 6:65, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted to him by my Father.†(Matt. 16:17; Luke 10:21)

1 Cor. 1:23-24, “We preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ, the power of God and the wisdom of God.â€Â

5. Those whom God calls and regenerates He also keeps, so that they do not totally and finally fall away from faith and grace.

Rom. 8:30, “Those whom he predestined, he also called and those whom he called he also justified and those whom he justified he also glorified.â€Â

John 10:27-29, “My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me; and I give them eternal life and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.â€Â

Phil. 1:6, “I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Christ Jesus.†(1 Cor. 1:8).

1 Thess. 5:23, “May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful and he will do it.â€Â

Conclusion

Romans 11:36, “From him, through him, and to him are all things, to him be glory forever amen!â€Â

Did you choose to read the Bible? Did you choose to understand it or not? The truth is salvation is like finding a precious jewel. It's not something that can be chosen. Jesus said, "seek and you shall find, knock and it will be opened to you." Mt.7:7

And the elect are those who have attained a level of faith equal to the Apostles. You shouldn't confuse the elect with the many who are called and simply follow without any real understanding. The elect are given talents. Some get one. Some get ten. The elect are the brothers and sisters of Christ who will be judging the nations with Christ when he returns. When Jesus separates the goats and the sheep it will be on the basis of how they treated the elect.

 

[jgredline]

Summary of the Sovereignty of God in Salvation

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By John Piper December 10, 1997


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Salvation is not finally in the hands of man to determine. His choices are crucial, but they are not the final, decisive power in bringing him to glory, God’s sovereign grace is.

1. God elects, chooses, before the foundation of the world whom he will save and whom he will pass by and leave to unbelief and sin and rebellion. He does this unconditionally, not on the basis of foreseen faith that humans produce by a supposed power of ultimate self-determination (= “free willâ€Â).

Acts 13:48, “When the gentiles heard this they were glad and glorified the word of God. And as many as were for ordained to eternal life believed.â€Â

Romans 11:7, “Israel failed to obtain what is sought. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened.â€Â

John 6:37, “All that the Father gives to me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will not cast out.†John 17:6, “I have manifested my name to them whom thou gavest me out of the world; thine they were, and thou gavest them to me.†(John 6:44, 65).

2. The Atonement applies to the elect in a unique, particular way, although the death of Christ is sufficient to propitiate the sins of the whole world. The death of Christ effectually accomplished the salvation for all God’s people.

Eph. 5:25, “Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.â€Â

Heb. 10:14, “By a single offering he perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.â€Â

John 10:15, “I lay down my life for the sheep.â€Â

Rom. 8:32, “He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how shall he not with him freely give us all things?â€Â

3. Because of the Fall, humans are incapable of any saving good apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. We are helpless and dead in sin. We have a mindset that “cannot submit to God without divine enabling.

Rom. 8:7-8, “The mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, it does not submit to God’s law; indeed it cannot. But you are not in the flesh; you are in the Spirit if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you.â€Â

Eph. 2:1,5, “You were dead through your trespasses and sins.â€Â

4. God’s call to salvation is effectual, and, hence His grace cannot be ultimately thwarted by human resistance. God’s regenerating call can overcome all human resistance.

Acts 16:14, “The Lord opened her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul.â€Â

John 6:65, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted to him by my Father.†(Matt. 16:17; Luke 10:21)

1 Cor. 1:23-24, “We preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ, the power of God and the wisdom of God.â€Â

5. Those whom God calls and regenerates He also keeps, so that they do not totally and finally fall away from faith and grace.

Rom. 8:30, “Those whom he predestined, he also called and those whom he called he also justified and those whom he justified he also glorified.â€Â

John 10:27-29, “My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me; and I give them eternal life and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.â€Â

Phil. 1:6, “I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Christ Jesus.†(1 Cor. 1:8).

1 Thess. 5:23, “May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful and he will do it.â€Â

Conclusion

Romans 11:36, “From him, through him, and to him are all things, to him be glory forever amen!â€Â

The danger of using someone else's material is that it is easy to take them out of context....

When I have asked you if you believe that God creates people for the sole purpose to torture people and send them to hell for all eternity, you answered that you lean towards annihilation...

Here is another quote from John Piper....
"Hell is unspeakably real, conscious, horrible and eternal-- the experience in which God vindicates the worth of his glory in holy wrath on those who would not delight in what is infinitely glorious." (God's Passion for His Glory, pg. 38)

-John Piper
At least John piper (whom I have the ut most respect for) is consistent with his theology...By teaching that Hell is a real place, it puts the focus back on Christ....By teaching the way you do, that if ''your not one of the elect and God has passed you by'' that gives Calvinism a bad name...How?...Because with out hell to fear, one will live like hell, especially those with a false view of Calvinism....I know a few folks who say, they are one of the elect and truly live like hell...When I have confronted them on their evil ways, One guy in particular (his real name is Alex) always has the same answer...''Javier, hey, I am one of the elect si I am saved and if I am not, worst case is,,,I will get annihilated...so I may as well enjoy life....What is sad is that his FATHER is a pastor as is his brother and both of them live or try and Live Holy Lives....

Bubba, your view or type of Calvinsim leads to a false view of OSAS....
Further more, The Lord Jesus Christ receives ultimate Glory when folks like Issac Newton, CS Lewis, Lee Strobel, and many others who have set out to disprove the bible, and instead choose to make a confession for Christ....Why??? Because the Holy Spirit has given them years to hear and eyes to see just as he does all man kind...It is up to man after that to decide if they want to believe what they see and what they hear....

 

[golfjack]

reply

Hi Vic. I will attempt to answer your questions, but you probably will not agree.

Romans 12:3, First of all, Paul is talking to believers here. One must realize that these believers were Spirit-Filled too. These people all had gifts of the Spirit according to what God gave them. They were bragging about there gifts amongst each other. They would say, my faith is greater than yours. But each one had a measure of faith that God distributed amomg them for the Church. Some have certain gifts, like the gift of healing for the sake of their brothers in Christ.

1 Cor. 12:9, This gift is a special gift given to someone who is facing a great tragedy, like being a martyr. It is a super-natural faith that will help the person get through a tragedy, and to be able to trust God in a way that will honor God.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Bubba]

The danger of using someone else's material is that it is easy to take them out of context....

When I have asked you if you believe that God creates people for the sole purpose to torture people and send them to hell for all eternity, you answered that you lean towards annihilation...

Here is another quote from John Piper....
"Hell is unspeakably real, conscious, horrible and eternal-- the experience in which God vindicates the worth of his glory in holy wrath on those who would not delight in what is infinitely glorious." (God's Passion for His Glory, pg. 38)

-John Piper
At least John piper (whom I have the ut most respect for) is consistent with his theology...By teaching that Hell is a real place, it puts the focus back on Christ....By teaching the way you do, that if ''your not one of the elect and God has passed you by'' that gives Calvinism a bad name...How?...Because with out hell to fear, one will live like hell, especially those with a false view of Calvinism....I know a few folks who say, they are one of the elect and truly live like hell...When I have confronted them on their evil ways, One guy in particular (his real name is Alex) always has the same answer...''Javier, hey, I am one of the elect si I am saved and if I am not, worst case is,,,I will get annihilated...so I may as well enjoy life....What is sad is that his FATHER is a pastor as is his brother and both of them live or try and Live Holy Lives....

Bubba, your view or type of Calvinsim leads to a false view of OSAS....
Further more, The Lord Jesus Christ receives ultimate Glory when folks like Issac Newton, CS Lewis, Lee Strobel, and many others who have set out to disprove the bible, and instead choose to make a confession for Christ....Why??? Because the Holy Spirit has given them years to hear and eyes to see just as he does all man kind...It is up to man after that to decide if they want to believe what they see and what they hear....

Javier,
It is unfortunate that you assume because of an experience you had (Alex) with someone, that you need to also place me in the narrow confines of your perception. Yes, I believe more in annihilation then eternal conscious punishment, but I do believe in a eternal destiny apart from God for the lost (cessation of life). John Piper and I probably would disagree in other aspects of doctrine, but we do agree in respect to the sovereignty of God in one's salvation. Many believe in OSAS that are not Calvinistic, so instead of creating a "straw man", give me the benefit of the doubt. I for one am not presumptious about my salvation, if Christ is not present in my life or the life of others through actions and words, then I and anyone else need ascertain if they are truly of the faith.
Bubba

 

[jgredline]

Then Bubba
Please explain what you mean by this

I do believe in a eternal destiny apart from God for the lost (cessation of life)

 

[Bubba]

Then Bubba
Please explain what you mean by this

Javier,
I think you could probably answer this question without my help. Nonetheless, I believe that what ever actual torment the lost have is temporal, but the punishment is eternal, which is death, both physical and spiritual. The more I read Scripture, the more I see that death has always been the penalty for the evil we do. Jesus died on the cross to pay the penalty that we deserve. The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) and because all have sinned (Romans 2:23), we are all under the curse of death; again physical as well as spiritual. A Christian is not saved from physical death, because we all die physically, but spiritually we have been given life in the Son (Colossians 1:13-14), thus though we in the flesh die in the Spirit we go to be with the Lord. This is where a nihilist’s like SDA’S and others would differ from my thoughts.
I leave you with but another copy and paste quote to consider:

“If death is truly the penalty for sin, as the Apostle Paul claims it is, then by dying on the cross, Jesus actually suffered the same consequence that unrepentant sinners will bear. In this way, he truly "took our place" on the cross so that we would not have to face this consequence of our sins. If on the other hand the wages of sin is not death but eternal infliction of unbearable pain, then Jesus's temporary suffering did not even come close. Christians often emphasize the enormity of Jesus's anguish on the cross, but if traditional teaching on Hell is at all accurate, His pain is not even an ounce of what most of the world is supposedly going to endure. If this is the case, He certainly did not take upon himself the penalty for our sin.â€Â
J. Moritz
Granted, I do not know how it must have been for Jesus, being separated from the Father, and the physical pain that He endured, but one would wonder when compared to eternity of the terrible torment the unbeliever will have, if this is truly the God of Scripture that the traditionalist believe.
Bubba

 

[Drew]

Drew,
I think you will find your answers in this passage, if you are serious about the truth of God's soveriegnty in salvation. Pay special attention to the bold parts.

Ephesians 1:1-11
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:
2Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love
5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight
9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him
10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him
11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

So, yes God chose Himself a people for no other reason then His good pleasure.
Bubba

I am quite serious in my intention to discover the truth of the Word of God.

However, the text you provided is entirely silent on the matter of the "unconditional" nature of the election process.

I do not think that the Scriptures teach the form of election that I believe you advocate. However, the post f mine that you are responding to does not even get into that - my post was merely addressing the incoherence of any suggestion that God's election is truly unconditional (and I assume, for the sake of argument, that the doctrine of election, but not its unconditionality, is correct). Perhaps you meant unconditional in a different sense than I understood it.

If you mean that there is absolutely nothing "about Fred" that plays a role in God's election of Fred, then you are saying something that simply cannot be true, unless you agree that election is arbitrary.

Now the Scripture above makes absolutely no claim that election is unconditional. If you disagree, please point out the specific statement(s).

Note what I am not saying: I am not saying that it is incoherent to assert that God elects people based on some unknowable (to us) criteria.

But to say that God's election of Fred has nothing to do with the characteristics of Fred, unless election is random, is simply conceptually incorrect - it is like saying that a triangle has four sides.

Selection of A versus B has to be made on the basis of properties that inhere in A and B. Otherwise, selection is random.

 

[Vic C.]

Re: reply

Hi Vic. I will attempt to answer your questions, but you probably will not agree.

Romans 12:3, First of all, Paul is talking to believers here. One must realize that these believers were Spirit-Filled too. These people all had gifts of the Spirit according to what God gave them. They were bragging about there gifts amongst each other. They would say, my faith is greater than yours. But each one had a measure of faith that God distributed amomg them for the Church. Some have certain gifts, like the gift of healing for the sake of their brothers in Christ.

1 Cor. 12:9, This gift is a special gift given to someone who is facing a great tragedy, like being a martyr. It is a super-natural faith that will help the person get through a tragedy, and to be able to trust God in a way that will honor God.

May God bless, Golfjack

Surprise! I don't have much of a problem with that at all. 8-)