Free will or no free will?

[jgredline]

it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me". Other words, I am seen as perfect and now the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith and the life I now live is "in (NASV) the Son of God who loves me and gave Himself for me".

I hate to break it to you, but you just described Sanctification as ''Wesley'' taught it...

 

[golfjack]

reply

Lovely, You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but for me, you are going to have your beliefs by using scripture. I am not a robot and neither are you. As you probably know, to me, calvanists views are full of holes and makes peoples doctrines way out their in left field. For example, where in the world did you get the idea that Adam and Eve had different wills than us. Does this tell you something?



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Bubba]

I hate to break it to you, but you just described Sanctification as ''Wesley'' taught it...

Javier,
Probably in is old age, he figured out that Christ did it all, because most people actually become more sensitive to their sinful natures as we grow in the Lord, though we are sinning less. Many freewill people see things different as they grow older (possibly you also) and realize, it really was the Lord who orchestrated my life and nothing happens by accident. Besides, I really do not think you believe that I am saying individuals quit sinning (like Wesley taught) in this life.
Bubba

 

[cyberjosh]

Here is an interesting question for those who advocate the view that there is no free will: Did Jesus have free will when he was in the flesh? If not then why did Jesus say that the people did not take his life from him but that he layed it down freely? Else are we to believe that the atonement was puppeteered? And if that is the case anyone could have been puppeteered by God to accomplish that task, even me.

~Josh

 

[RND]

Here is an interesting question for those who advocate the view that there is no free will: Did Jesus have free will when he was in the flesh? If not then why did Jesus say that the people did not take his life from him but that he layed it down freely? Else are we to believe that the atonement was puppeteered? And if that is the case anyone could have been puppeteered by God to accomplish that task, even me.

~Josh

Josh the Christ?

Your "joshin'"

 

[Bubba]

Here is an interesting question for those who advocate the view that there is no free will: Did Jesus have free will when he was in the flesh? If not then why did Jesus say that the people did not take his life from him but that he layed it down freely? Else are we to believe that the atonement was puppeteered? And if that is the case anyone could have been puppeteered by God to accomplish that task, even me.

~Josh

Josh,
In some ways, one could say Jesus was a puppet of the Fathers will, but I think a willing participant in God’s plan of redemption is probably more in order. The Atonement was prophesized prior to the advent. In Acts 2:23 and 4:27-28, we have God orchestrating even the evil people that God used to facilitate a crucifixion of Jesus. Even so, it wasn’t just any one who could be the substitute for mankind’s sin, it had to be someone without sin. Did Jesus have a freewill? Probably a better question is, could He have sin? Nonetheless, I believe He did have freewill, only He and Adam (Eve) did , the rest of us inherited Adam and Eve’s sin, thus our person is not free to make spiritual choices (1Corinthian 2:14). In fact the Bible tells us that we are blinded by Satan (2Corinthians 4:4) and we need to be delivered from Satan’s darkness as was Paul (Acts 26:16-18).
Jesus was tempted in all things as we are, but because He did not have a sin nature, and because His will was, align with the Fathers will, He did not fall to temptation. We on the other hand do have a sin nature and will fail in a heartbeat. Thankfully, at the new birth because of the new creation we now are, we do have the ability to make right choices, though we fail often. In John 15:1-5, we understand how it is that we can make right choices, at least sometimes, it is because we are aligned with Jesus, and He is in us. Apart from Christ the individual can do nothing, a very important point.
Bubba

 

[lovely]

Hi Jack,

Lovely, You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but for me, you are going to have your beliefs by using scripture. I am not a robot and neither are you. As you probably know, to me, calvanists views are full of holes and makes peoples doctrines way out their in left field. For example, where in the world did you get the idea that Adam and Eve had different wills than us. Does this tell you something?

I think I did know that you do not hold to Calvinism, Jack, but I think you do believe in eternal salvation...which is also a belief of Calvinists. I could be wrong, correct me if I am. \ I do not prefer the term Calvinism at this point in my life, really, but I do believe in God's sovereignty. I guess I am saying that I do not follow John Calvin, but Christ. So, I would probably agree that Calvinism has holes...and many other denominations too.

As far as Adam and Eve, I think that man's condition prior to the fall was different than it was after the fall, due to sin. I don't believe that man's will is the only thing that remained unaffected, or somehow able to operate independent of God or satan. We may not agree, but I wanted to explain it a little further anyway. The Lord bless you, Jack.

 

[Solo]

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:12-14

At what point does is the natural man able to recognize the spiritual things of God? What allowed us to know and believe the spiritual things of God. What has caused the rebirth of those that are spiritually dead?

 

[Bubba]

A.W. Pink writes:

"Perhaps the one Scripture which most emphatically of all asserts the absolute Sovereignty of God in connection with His determining the destiny of His creatures, is the Ninth of Romans. We shall not attempt to review here the entire chapter, but will confine ourselves to verses 21-23- "Hath not the potter power over the clay of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? What if God, willing to show His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory?" These verses represent fallen mankind as inert and as impotent as a lump of lifeless clay. This Scripture evidences that there is "no difference," in themselves, between the elect and the non-elect; they are clay of "the same lump," which agrees with Ephesians 2:3, where we are told that all are by nature "children of wrath." It teaches us that the ultimate destiny of every individual is decided by the will of God, and blessed it is that such be the case; if it were left to our wills, the ultimate destination of us all would be the Lake of Fire. It declares that God Himself does make a difference in the respective destinations to which He assigns His creatures, for one vessel is made "unto honor and another unto dishonor"; some are "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction," others are "vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory."

Remember this all began with Jacob and Esau, being in the womb of their mother, before they had done anything wrong, God chose Jacob. Jacob was the elect of God, Esau was not, one became a nation of God's people (not that all Jews or all those claiming to be Christian are: Roman 2:28-29) the other a nation of unbelievers, but it all began with two individuals, where one was chosen over the other. Paul knows the argument and gives the retort in Romans 9:14-24, that God can do what ever He wants with this lump of clay that is humanity. Some are made into vessels of mercy, some into vessels of wrath and verse 24 says that not only for the Jew is this true but also for the Gentile.

Bubba

 

[Vic C.]

Paul knows the argument and gives the retort in Romans 9:14-24, that God can do what ever He wants with this lump of clay that is humanity. Some are made into vessels of mercy, some into vessels of wrath and verse 24 says that not only for the Jew is this true but also for the Gentile.

Because HE can, doesn't mean He does. He's a sovereign God, not a dictator. Only a Supreme Being, such as God, is capable of discreetly using His powers.

I believe verse 24 is pointing to those Gentiles who are chosen out of the called. It doesn't say they too are made "vessels of wrath", they do that on their own by way of rejecting the invitation. It just addresses their being justified. Adam Clarke concurs:

Verse 23. And that he might make knownâ€â€

God endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath: 1. To show his wrath, and to make his power known. And also, 2. That he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy. Which he had afore prepared unto glory The Jews were fitted for destruction long before; but the fittest time to destroy them was after he had prepared the believing Gentiles unto glory. For the rod of the Messiah's strength was to be sent out of Zion, Psalm 110:2. The Jewish nation was to supply the first preachers of the Gospel, and from Jerusalem their sound was to go forth into all the earth. (some of these elect were called for service; to serve) Therefore the Jewish state, notwithstanding its corruptions, was to be preserved till the Messiah came, and even till the Gospel preached by the apostles had taken deep root in the Gentile world. Another thing which rendered the time when the Jewish polity was overthrown the most proper, was this, because then the immediate occasion of it was the extensiveness of the Divine grace.

They would not have the Gentiles admitted into the Church of God; but contradicted, and blasphemed, and rejected the Lord that bought them: thus, then, the extensiveness of the Divine grace occasioned their infidelity, Romans 9:33; 10:3; 11:11, 12, 15, 28, 30. Thus the Jews were diminished by that abundance of grace which has enriched the Gentiles. And so the grace of God was illustrated; or, so God made known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy-the apostles and primitive believers among the Jews, and the Gentile world, which received the Gospel by the preaching of the apostles and their successors.

Verse 24. Even us, whom he hath calledâ€â€

All the Jews and Gentiles who have been invited by the preaching of the Gospel to receive justification by faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, and have come to the Gospel feast on this invitation.

• http://truthinheart.com/EarlyOberlinCD/ ... eRomIX.HTM

(comment in blue is mine)

 

[cyberjosh]

Did Jesus have a freewill? Probably a better question is, could He have sin? Nonetheless, I believe He did have freewill, only He and Adam (Eve) did , the rest of us inherited Adam and Eve’s sin, thus our person is not free to make spiritual choices (1Corinthian 2:14).

That's completely bogus. You make it seem as if Christ has not revived us spiritually. On top of that even evil men have free will and in one of the Psalms is says that the people prevented the Lord from doing the work he wanted in them. Also Malachi 3:8 says, "Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing Me!" men can get in the way of God's plans by their sinful desires, and even righteous people have free will to daily choose to walk with God, and in whatever way they will to do so - though they would be better off seeking God's will and conforming to it. We must conform our will to God's will so that we do no inhibit God's plan nor rob God of what is due to Him. Unfortunatley though we can resist Him of our own volition.

 

[cyberjosh]

Josh the Christ?

Your "joshin'"

I'm sure you were aware of the tongue-in-cheek nature of that comment. If Jesus was a puppet (even his righteousness) then God could have made anyone perfectly righteous to suit his standard & purpose. Thus Jesus had free will.

As for the "smart" comment above : :

Actually Joshua did die for us on the cross, and Joshua is the savior.

The Hebrew word from which "Joshua" is translated is Yehoshua being composed of Yeh (derivitive of Yah, which is a shortening of Yahweh [Jehovah]) and shua meaning "Salvation". The whole name means "Yahweh is Salvation".

Yehoshua was commonly shortened to Yeshua the Hebrew name from which we get the Greek Iesous which we translate in English as Jesus.

Sorry, I had to be a smart alec too. :

Oh, and if you look at my avatar of the 3 names of the persons of the Trinity in Hebrew the middle one is Yeshua. I made that picture myself and I love it.


P.S. I'm actually proud of my name because it attests to the very fact that Jesus is my savior. :angel:

~Yeshua (Joshua)

 

[jgredline]

I'm sure you were aware of the tongue-in-cheek nature of that comment. If Jesus was a puppet (even his righteousness) then God could have made anyone perfectly righteous to suit his standard & purpose. Thus Jesus had free will.

As for the "smart" comment above : :

Actually Joshua did die for us on the cross, and Joshua is the savior.

The Hebrew word from which "Joshua" is translated is Yehoshua being composed of Yeh (derivitive of Yah, which is a shortening of Yahweh [Jehovah]) and shua meaning "Salvation". The whole name means "Yahweh is Salvation".

Yehoshua was commonly shortened to Yeshua the Hebrew name from which we get the Greek Iesous which we translate in English as Jesus.

Sorry, I had to be a smart alec too. :

Oh, and if you look at my avatar of the 3 names of the persons of the Trinity in Hebrew the middle one is Yeshua. I made that picture myself and I love it.


P.S. I'm actually proud of my name because it attests to the very fact that Jesus is my savior. :angel:

~Yeshua (Joshua)

Way to go !!!! :smt023

 

[Bubba]

Vic writes: "Because HE can, doesn't mean He does. He's a sovereign God, not a dictator. Only a Supreme Being, such as God, is capable of discreetly using His powers.

I believe verse 24 is pointing to those Gentiles who are chosen out of the called."
I think you would have a hard time convincing Esau that God didn't use His sovereign determination among him and his brother. In regards to the Gentiles, what happen to context, Paul is talking about God having the right to choose who are His (Jacob and Esau were the reason he is writing verses 14 to 24)and uses the illustration of the Potter to show this. Vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy are is choice as the Potter, then comes verses 23 and 24:




Romans 9:23-24 (New American Standard Bible)

23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. "

"Even us" which is Paul and other Jews whom He called (vessels of mercy), not among Jews only, but also among Gentiles (vessels of mercy). Pretty darn clear Vic.
Bubba

 

[Diolectic]

In order to understand each other, we need the same definitions for every word.

The will: ?
Free: ?
Sovereignty: ?

 

[Bubba]

That's completely bogus. You make it seem as if Christ has not revived us spiritually. On top of that even evil men have free will and in one of the Psalms is says that the people prevented the Lord from doing the work he wanted in them. Also Malachi 3:8 says, "Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing Me!" men can get in the way of God's plans by their sinful desires, and even righteous people have free will to daily choose to walk with God, and in whatever way they will to do so - though they would be better off seeking God's will and conforming to it. We must conform our will to God's will so that we do no inhibit God's plan nor rob God of what is due to Him. Unfortunatley though we can resist Him of our own volition.

Josh, I was talking about before regeneration, after God has made us alive we do make spiritual decisions of a good nature (Ephesians 2:1-7.
Bubba

 

[cyberjosh]

Josh, I was talking about before regeneration, after God has made us alive we do make spiritual decisions of a good nature (Ephesians 2:1-7.
Bubba

But I included evil men in my post, about how they inhibited God, because God has sovereignly determined not to force his covenant stipulations/blessings on anyone. The evil and the righteous both have free will, and even the righteous can from time to time choose evil, contrary to God's Spirit in them (according to the flesh). Do you disagree?

~Josh

 

[Bubba]

But I included evil men in my post, about how they inhibited God, because God has sovereignly determined not to force his covenant stipulations/blessings on anyone. The evil and the righteous both have free will, and even the righteous can from time to time choose evil, contrary to God's Spirit in them (according to the flesh). Do you disagree?

~Josh

Josh,
I believe all things happen out of necessity, but God does not need to force a person against their will. Judas did what he did naturally and willfully, God used his evil intentions nonetheless for a greater glory. Hezekiah’s life was extended, even though the prophet Isaiah said he would die, God used the prayers of the King as the means to add years to his life. Did God not know that Hezekiah would pray for a longer life? Was not Isaiah’s prophecy a means to get Hezekiah to pray? Is not yes the answer for these questions?
Man’s will is not free (1Corinthians 12:14 and 2 Corinthians 4:4), in the spiritual realm. In the physical realm, yes, we make literally thousands of decisions everyday and in our realm, they are seen as genuine choices. In God’s realm, He orchestrated every decision for His purposes (Ephesians 1:11) and we are nevertheless responsible for those choices, even though God uses our evil ways for His plan, He did not force us to do evil things. The Christian has the ability to make righteous choices after the new birth, but even our unrighteous decisions are worked out for good over the long run (Romans 8:28). For believers God uses even our mistakes for His glory as we mature and grow.
Grace, Bubba

 

[dancing queen]

I stopped reading this thread a long time ago so not sure what has been said but I came across this verse.

Zechariah 7
11 "But they refused to pay attention; stubbornly they turned their backs and stopped up their ears. 12 They made their hearts as hard as flint and would not listen to the law or to the words that the LORD Almighty had sent by his Spirit through the earlier prophets. So the LORD Almighty was very angry.

I don't deny that in some parts of the bible we hear of God hardening hearts, and I don't doubt that He can/does still do that today. But doesn't this verse show that sometimes it is not God but people themselves.

 

[Bubba]

I stopped reading this thread a long time ago so not sure what has been said but I came across this verse.

Zechariah 7
11 "But they refused to pay attention; stubbornly they turned their backs and stopped up their ears. 12 They made their hearts as hard as flint and would not listen to the law or to the words that the LORD Almighty had sent by his Spirit through the earlier prophets. So the LORD Almighty was very angry.

I don't deny that in some parts of the bible we hear of God hardening hearts, and I don't doubt that He can/does still do that today. But doesn't this verse show that sometimes it is not God but people themselves.

Dancing queen,
It is always our faults when hearts are harden, God has a general grace that goes out to all people (pagans and heathens) and this grace enables us to love and care(family, friends, etc), All God has to do, is pull this grace away and like pharaoh, the heart becomes hard. Who is ultimately responsible, God or us? Us for sure. We should be very thankful that God has not pulled His general grace from this world, or we would really see what man's true nature is like, ie, "crucify Him!".
Peace, Bubba