Free will or no free will?

[Vic C.]

Bubba,

I tend to lean towards some of Wesley and Clarke's teachings and commentaries. Actually Clarke is well renowned for his Bible commentaries. You tend to lean towards Luther, Calvin, etc. We will probably disagree on certain aspects of God's sovereignty. He does have a permissive will as well. I believe He has the capacity to at times, restrain from exerting this sovereignty. Every wise Ruler in history learns where to draw the line. In this case, God doesn't need to learn, HE knows and since I believe the scale is ALWAYS in HIS favor, I don't see a problem with Him allowing Man to have some "rope". 8-)

Again, I say, I believe there is a balance between God's sovereignty and Man's "limited" freedom of choice. Yes, I admit it's limited, but I could never go as far as saying every choice man makes is predetermined by God. I can't wrap my head around how this glorifies the LORD. He'd be more glorified if one accepted Him after hearing the call. I believe there is a common thread throughout the Bible, from cover to cover, that shows man's ability to choose.

We both agree that the calling comes first, correct? Good. We also have one very important thing in common; The Cross. Does it really matter how man gets to it, as long as man does? I will continue to witness as though every man, woman and child have the chance to hear and accept.


:angel:

 

[jgredline]

Bubba,

I tend to lean towards some of Wesley and Clarke's teachings and commentaries. Actually Clarke is well renowned for his Bible commentaries. You tend to lean towards Luther, Calvin, etc. We will probably disagree on certain aspects of God's sovereignty. He does have a permissive will as well. I believe He has the capacity to at times, restrain from exerting this sovereignty. Every wise Ruler in history learns where to draw the line. In this case, God doesn't need to learn, HE knows and since I believe the scale is ALWAYS in HIS favor, I don't see a problem with Him allowing Man to have some "rope". 8-)

Again, I say, I believe there is a balance between God's sovereignty and Man's "limited" freedom of choice. Yes, I admit it's limited, but I could never go as far as saying every choice man makes is predetermined by God. I can't wrap my head around how this glorifies the LORD. He'd be more glorified if one accepted Him after hearing the call. I believe there is a common thread throughout the Bible, from cover to cover, that shows man's ability to choose.

We both agree that the calling comes first, correct? Good. We also have one very important thing in common; The Cross. Does it really matter how man gets to it, as long as man does? I will continue to witness as though every man, woman and child have the chance to hear and accept.


:angel:

I agree.... See here is the thing that Calvinist have problems with...I have been asking the question but nobody has taken the bait...So I will just lay it out and perhaps it will shed some light....

As Vic said...and I have said a few different times...How does God get the ''most'' glory? By him imputing his saving grace on folks or by folks choosing him? By folks choosing him, will indeed give God more Glory...It is the Holy Spirit who ''wooooos'' people to himself and it is the Holy Spirit who gives people eyes to hear and ears to see.....If it is not a work of the HS then man on his own will not choose God...The scriptures are clear on this.....

So is God sovereign over all his creation? ''YES'' and NO.. :o oH oh Javier what is this madness your speaking now? :o :o .....Allow me to explain how this all works without the bible contradicting itself in the way full blown Calvinism does...As many of you know I do not believe that a Born Again Christian can loose his salvation...It ''can't happen'' The bible clearly teaches this...But if we have ''free will'' then we can loose it; right?...Let me explain...

But here is the thing....Once we become born again, we are NO LONGER OURS...We belong to Jesus...We are now one of his sheep...Jesus promised he will not loose a single one....God is completely sovereign in the life of the ''believer''....Once we are born again and are his, The Holy Spirit by whom we are sealed by will make sure we persevere to the very end....How can this happen....????Because ''the believer no longer has free will''....

But javier are you saying that you no longer sin?????...What I am saying is that ''my spirit'' no longer sins, but the flesh will continue to sin as I go through my sanctification process and ''IF'' i am truly born again the flesh will sin less and less as time passes...A person who is born again will not live in sin...A person who is born again will not plan to sin....Does this still happen??????

Yes, but there will be consequences to pay....I will make up an example...
''Suppose'' I where to plan to go to a strip club...What would happen?
On my way there, I would be convicted by the Holy Spirit....Suppose I ignored the HS and went...
1) I would get caught, by say a friend at church or my wife...
2) Nobody would ever know, but would feel guilt that would tear me up inside and make me sick...The waring that Paul speaks off in Romans 8...
3) I would walk away and say...Boy this was cool, I can't wait to come back...in which case, I would say that I was NOT born again...If there is no war, then there is no HS....it is that simple......

So a Believer does not have ''free will'' in a sense that a non believer does...
If the believer had no free will at all, then even the flesh would not sin....But who here can say that their flesh never sins???????

Let me give one more example and then I will get off my soap box...
This is for the believer....
Now that I belong to Jesus and I no longer have free will in the same way a pagan does, how does this work?.....
If it is Gods will for Javier to be a Pastor, Javier will be a pastor....
Let me explain...Lets say I was praying...God; What would you have me do for you???God tells me, I want u to be a pastor and take care of my sheep...
I say, no thnaks God, I want to go to school and be a doctor...God will say OK, But 8 years later I am struggling through school and can't pass the exams and so finally through much hard work and grief over the years I finally make it....Then I get to see my first patient....Hey it is my PASTOR...How cool....I get to take care of my pastor...BUT..I make a mistake and end up prescribing the wrong medication and ''kill my pastor''...
The next thing you know I get fired and 2 years later as I breezed through seminary, I am now a pastor... For the same church that I killed there pastor...Go figure....Had I listened to God, I would have saved me 10 years of grief....

One thing that is sad, is when non believers will pray for what ever it is in the hopes that God will answer their prayers and as we all know, God does not even hear them...They may as well pray to a tree...God is sovereign over all his creation in that if he pulled his common Grace, then literally all hell will break loose...and you know what folks..This day is coming...

Comments welcome...I have had this in my head since this debate satrted, but nobody took the bait...Really we never even got though round 1...

 

[Veritas]

Very informative post Javier. :smt023 I will prayfully consider what has been presented.

One thing really stuck out to me...

If there is no war, then there is no HS....it is that simple......

Almost able to visualize that concept. :o

 

[Vic C.]

Very good Javier.

But here is the thing....Once we become born again, we are NO LONGER OURS...We belong to Jesus...We are now one of his sheep...Jesus promised he will not loose a single one....God is completely sovereign in the life of the ''believer''....Once we are born again and are his, The Holy Spirit by whom we are sealed by will make sure we persevere to the very end....How can this happen....????Because ''the believer no longer has free will''....

Let me add a little historical aspect to this:

A shepherd would go to great lengths to keep any of his sheep from getting lost.; even if it meant finding the stray sheep, break its leg so it can't wander and carry it if he must.

Think about that when reading Matthew 18:11-14.

Also consider this:

Matthew 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
Matthew 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Jesus appears to even be condoning saving the stray sheep on a Sabbath! Wow! That's how important we are to Him!

:angel:

 

[golfjack]

reply

Javier, Here is a verse to chew on. 1 Cor. 7:37: Nevertheless he who standsfast in his heart, having no necessity, but has power over his free will, and has so determined in his heart that he will keep his virgin, does well.

Of course my spirit can't sin, but to me it is always one's choice to sin. If one uses his mind, and decides to sin in the flesh, then he will sin. The flesh and the spirit are always warring against each other. However, there is one sin that a believer can committ, and that is the unpardonable sin, which gives this person a choice because of free will. ( Hebrews 10:26-29). If willfully sinning is a bunch of sins, then it would be useless to use 1 John 1:9 because there is no forgiveness ( Hebrews 10:26).

Therefore, your doctrine about not losing one's salvation is watered down Calvanism.


May God bless, Golfjack

 

[jgredline]

Re: reply

Javier, Here is a verse to chew on. 1 Cor. 7:37: Nevertheless he who standsfast in his heart, having no necessity, but has power over his free will, and has so determined in his heart that he will keep his virgin, does well.

Of course my spirit can't sin, but to me it is always one's choice to sin. If one uses his mind, and decides to sin in the flesh, then he will sin. The flesh and the spirit are always warring against each other. However, there is one sin that a believer can committ, and that is the unpardonable sin, which gives this person a choice because of free will. ( Hebrews 10:26-29). If willfully sinning is a bunch of sins, then it would be useless to use 1 John 1:9 because there is no forgiveness ( Hebrews 10:26).

Therefore, your doctrine about not losing one's salvation is watered down Calvanism.


May God bless, Golfjack

Jack
Most of what you wrote I agree with...I think you may want to re-read my post...

As far as the unpardonable sin, there is ''NO WAY'' a child of God will commit this...To be honest, I do not hold to the view that it can still be committed today...I believe that was a unique situation directed at Jesus...What was the unpardonable sin? Accusing God ''himself'' of attributing the miracles he had done to satan...Giving Satan Glory for Gods work...Since Jesus is not with us in flesh, this sin can no longer be committed...

As far as watered down Calvinism goes, call it what you like...It is what it is...
I have stated many times that I am a Calminianist....I hate to break it to you jack, but I have heard you say many times that a person can't loose his salvation, so if this is how you believe, then it makes you a fellow Calminianist...either way it does not matter as we are brothers in Christ...

Now ''if anybody wishes to discuss the unpardonable sin, or salvation, please start a new thread, so we do not hijack this one....

 

[jgredline]

Craig, thank you very much....

Vic, that was a great addition !!!!Thank you.....

Admittingly I was too lazy to crack open my bible and look for the verses :

 

[Solo]

I will ask again. Hopefully, a freewill advocate will be able to answer this question.

How can a natural man, who is void of spiritual understanding, make a choice of faith in the spiritual apart from God's assistance?

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:12-14

 

[jgredline]

I will ask again. Hopefully, a freewill advocate will be able to answer this question.

How can a natural man, who is void of spiritual understanding, make a choice of faith in the spiritual apart from God's assistance?

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:12-14

Man can not choose God with out the Holy Spirit giving the person eyes to hear and ears to see...The scripture is very clear on this....There is none that searches after God, no not one...(my quick paraphrase)

 

[golfjack]

reply

Of course it is the Holy Spirit that convicts us when we come to God. Grace really should be defined as God's ability. Grace changes us and faith changes things. So now, what is our part to play in God's plan of salvation? After reading Roman's 10:8-10, I must conclude that we must believe with our hearts and confess with our mouths. Therefore, this must be an act of our free will because in no way is God going to force me to accept Him.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Solo]

Is the Natural man able to understand the spiritual things of God prior to being born again with the help of the Holy Spirit, or does the Natural man come to God of his own freewill?

In other words, if man has freewill, what part of man's freewill is exercised in his coming to be born again if the Holy Spirit has a play in it?

 

[golfjack]

reply

Well, the Holy Spirit convicts and we respond by using our faith in what He convicted us of, which is sin and our need for a Savier.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Solo]

Re: reply

Well, the Holy Spirit convicts and we respond by using our faith in what He convicted us of, which is sin and our need for a Savier.



May God bless, Golfjack

Do all respond by believing using "our" faith after being convicted by the Holy Spirit?

 

[golfjack]

reply

Of course all will not respond to the call of God. By reading John 3:16, which is the master verse of free will, God wishes all to be saved, but many will not.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[cyberjosh]

I believe all things happen out of necessity

It wasn't necessary that I sinned in a certain matter that will remain nameless last week. I chose to do it and because of it I had to repent. Even for non-sinful actions the Bible says, "All things are permissible, but not all are profitable." My destiny (the term you seem to lean towards) is actually toward good deeds in Christ Jesus, not towards the sin I might sometimes fall into along the way. God would never destin his own saved saints to sin for any reason.

~Josh

 

[Solo]

So the bottom line is that no one can believe unless God intervenes and gives the unbeliever the capacity to believe, since the natural man cannot comprehend the spiritual things of God.

 

[golfjack]

reply

Let me ask you a question. Can man please God without faith? Can faith grow exceedingly? And what is the difference between natural faith and the God kind of faith? One more, Does faith activate the will of God?



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[jgredline]

So the bottom line is that no one can believe unless God intervenes and gives the unbeliever the capacity to believe, since the natural man cannot comprehend the spiritual things of God.

This is true...The natural man will not understand the simpleness of the scriptures with out the Holy Spirit...

a) Since it is Gods will for all men to be saved, yet we know many will taste the flames of hell, How is it that not all are saved????
So again, is this a bible contradiction? NO.....Because the Holy Spirit will reveal himself to ''all mankind''.....The Holy Spirit will give all ears to hear and eyes to see...

How will he do this?...For some through radio ministry,for some this forum, for others tv ministry, for others a friend or missionary preaching the word, still others will have a damascas road experience and still other a Romans 2 experience..Some folks will get many chances and yet others will get one chance...But the choice to receive or reject Jesus is up to each person....

There will be not a single soul who can say he was not a part of the elect, because he had a choice to become a part of the family....So when the person who rejected messiah ends up roasting in torment day and forever and ever, he will be there because he chose hell over eternal life.....

 

[Solo]

Can man please God without faith?

No

Can faith grow exceedingly?

Yes

And what is the difference between natural faith and the God kind of faith?

Natural Faith of the Natural Man is not of the Spiritual Realm.
Spiritual Faith of the Born Again Man is of the Spiritual Realm.

A Natural Man only has faith in his physical understanding of the way things are thinking of the Spiritual things as foolish.

One more, Does faith activate the will of God?

No.

 

[cyberjosh]

Just for kicks, everyone does know that in Ephesians 2:8 which says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" that the last part is saying that salvation (not faith) is not of ourselves, which makes sense theologically and can be corroborated in the Greek, don't they?. This means that faith is our own responsibility. Not to say that an unbeliever can will himself to believe in God, God does the prompting and the initial conviction, but it is then our (this is where free will comes in - lest Hebrews 6:4-6 & similar verses refer to a purely hypothetical situation) responsibility to excercise faith in God by responding to God's act of initiation and call ("many are called, but few are chosen"). And as 1 Peter 1:5 points out we are kept by God through our continued faith in Him (depending on Him through faith) for our salvation. Perseverance of the Saints, friends, perseverance - it's a choice. Please, run for the entire (full) prize of our salvation, lest we fall short at some point (2 John 1:8). Getting only a partial reward in the end because you didn't excercise all of the grace that God gave you would be quite disparaging, shaming, and shocking on the last day and it would be far more rewarding (in general) to recieve the whole reward (2 John 1:8) that we are all running for as Christians anyways. This however requires us to excercise free will. So sorry "destiny only" people, we have to use our God given free will lest some of our works be burned (1 Corinthians 3:10-15) via neglect of God's grace which we were expected to use (2 Corinthians 6:1).

God Bless,

~Josh