Free will or no free will?

[Heidi]

What about the verse 'knock and the door shall be opened' etc. I always thought that was about letting Jesus into your life?

As for the discussion about whether election is random...

If election does happen as believed by many of this forum, then I think random is quite close to the mark, but not quite the right word. As God designs us it can be no part of our character that makes him elect us otherwise you could argue why didn't he give others that characteristic. If God elects it is just whoever he feels like. So in that sense random.

I find it interesting how huge this discussion has become. Does it really matter either way? I believe God has the power to do all the non-free will bunch describe. But I don't believe he uses that power all the time - it contradicts too much.

Put that verse together with: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him" and what do you get? You get, those who knock are being drawn by God. So once again. the whole key is that no one knows if he is being drawn by God or not. So we are all without excuse. You have to put all of scripture together to form interpretations that are correct. One cannot take verses out of context because the bible doesn't contradict itself.

 

[dancing queen]

I'm not sure which part of

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him"

says I'm not drawing everyone and if I draw you, you will definetly come? Or is this explained elsewhere?

 

[dancing queen]

Heidi, I would love your thoughts on this verse. I am trying to see things from your point of view but really can't with this scripture.

Zechariah 7

11 "But they refused to pay attention; stubbornly they turned their backs and stopped up their ears. 12 They made their hearts as hard as flint and would not listen to the law or to the words that the LORD Almighty had sent by his Spirit through the earlier prophets. So the LORD Almighty was very angry.

 

[Heidi]

I'm not sure which part of

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him"

says I'm not drawing everyone and if I draw you, you will definetly come? Or is this explained elsewhere?

Yes in Romans 9:19, "For who resists his will?". And Romans 11:29, "For God's gifts and his call are irrevocable." And 1 John 4:4, Romans 8:9, Phillippians 2:13, Ezekiel 36:27, John 10:28 and many more verses.

The holy Spirit opens our hearts and eyes so that we see the world differently. That is not an act of the will. It is the pwoer of the hly Spirit. He makes us a new creation as Ezekiel 36:27 and 2 Corinthians 5:17 tell us. My belief in the bible has nothing to do with choice or human will as 1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us, any more than I was smart, pure, intelligent and wise enough to choose God of my own free will. Once again, that is elevating man which comes from the sin of pride which is from the devil, not elevating God which comes from humility that comes from the Spirit. So it's a lie as Romans 9:11-25 tells us as well. Why do you think fruit of the Spirit is called fruit of the Spirit rather than the fruits of man? :o

 

[mondar]

I'm not sure which part of

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him"

says I'm not drawing everyone and if I draw you, you will definetly come? Or is this explained elsewhere?

EDIT...MONDAR...THIS AD HOMIEN ATTACK WAS NOT NECESSARY ..JG


Concerning your question, I think John 6:37 is right in the context and is quite clear that the drawing ministry of the Father in verse 44 is irresistable. Verse 37 says that "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me." This does not mean that some will come. It does not even suggest that most will come. It is clear that ever single person given to the son will come.

Then in verse 39 Christ says:
"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day."
This again does not mean some of those give to Christ will be lost. Actually the verse is again clear that "all who have been given will come.

The phrase "come to him" is repeated in verse 44. Verse 44 is a little bit of a shock with how it starts because it is opposite of verses 37 and 39. The previous verses speak of a specific people being given to the Son. At least the given ones come in the previous verses. The beginning of verse 44 is a contrast in that "no man can come to me."

This raises a question. If some come, how do they come if no man can come? The middle of verse 44 is an answer to the problem. The people given to the Son, are also drawn by the Father.

To suggest that the drawn person does not have to come avoids the rest of the context. This drawing is for thos given to the Son, and results in salvation. If the drawing is for everyone, then we have universalism and no man goes to hell.

DQ, I think you questions are valid, and are definitely answered right in the context. If John 6:44 is read in context, it definitely supports doctrines such as unconditional election, eternal security, and irresistable grace.

 

[mondar]

I would like to add a second post and give a more detailed explaination of John 6:44

The verse starts with
"No man can come to me"

The word "can" comes from the greek word "δυναται" which means "can, or to be able." This word and phrase clearly speaks of ability. No man is able to come to Christ in faith.

The word "no man" comes from "ουδεις."
This is a universal statement. It is not saying that some men have the ability to come, neither is it saying that a few men are able to come. It is a statement that should be taken literally, that no man can come to Christ.

The reason for the inability of mankind to come to faith is not stated in the context. Ephesians 2:1 tells us that we are dead in sin. The sin nature is not partial, but the sin nature is so complete that we are by nature rebels against God with no inclination to believe the gospel.

This sounds dark, and one might wonder how then can even one sinner ever come to the gospel. The answer is in an exception clause.

"unless the Father who sent Me draws him;"

Unless is a grammatical exceptive clause (εαν μη). The exception of the rule in the first part that it is impossible for man to come to Christ is found after this exceptive clause. The exception is the sovereign drawing of the Father can bring a person to Christ. This drawing is the only thing that will negate the inability of mankind in the first clause. The implication is that if the father draws, a person will come to Christ. There is no way view the grammar of John 6:44 as saying that if the Father draws, some might come to Christ. It is not possible that if the Father draws most come to Christ. The idea is that if the Father draws, a person will come to Christ (all of them). John 6:37 is right in the same context and it says "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." How can one say that most that are given to Christ by the Father will come to Christ? That is not what the text says, it says that "all the the Father gives me will come to me."

Notice also in John 6:44 that the end of the verse speaks of resurrection. The one drawn by the Father is resurrected on the last day.

To put it simply, this drawing saves. The one drawn, comes to Christ. If God draws all, then we have universalism. If God draws some, and not others, we have the biblical doctrine of election.

 

[Heidi]

I would like to add a second post and give a more detailed explaination of John 6:44

The verse starts with
"No man can come to me"

The word "can" comes from the greek word "δυναται" which means "can, or to be able." This word and phrase clearly speaks of ability. No man is able to come to Christ in faith.

The word "no man" comes from "ουδεις."
This is a universal statement. It is not saying that some men have the ability to come, neither is it saying that a few men are able to come. It is a statement that should be taken literally, that no man can come to Christ.

The reason for the inability of mankind to come to faith is not stated in the context. Ephesians 2:1 tells us that we are dead in sin. The sin nature is not partial, but the sin nature is so complete that we are by nature rebels against God with no inclination to believe the gospel.

This sounds dark, and one might wonder how then can even one sinner ever come to the gospel. The answer is in an exception clause.

"unless the Father who sent Me draws him;"

Unless is a grammatical exceptive clause (εαν μη). The exception of the rule in the first part that it is impossible for man to come to Christ is found after this exceptive clause. The exception is the sovereign drawing of the Father can bring a person to Christ. This drawing is the only thing that will negate the inability of mankind in the first clause. The implication is that if the father draws, a person will come to Christ. There is no way view the grammar of John 6:44 as saying that if the Father draws, some might come to Christ. It is not possible that if the Father draws most come to Christ. The idea is that if the Father draws, a person will come to Christ (all of them). John 6:37 is right in the same context and it says "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." How can one say that most that are given to Christ by the Father will come to Christ? That is not what the text says, it says that "all the the Father gives me will come to me."

Notice also in John 6:44 that the end of the verse speaks of resurrection. The one drawn by the Father is resurrected on the last day.

To put it simply, this drawing saves. The one drawn, comes to Christ. If God draws all, then we have universalism. If God draws some, and not others, we have the biblical doctrine of election.

Good post.

 

[mondar]

And what you don't understand is that once someone heals you of blindness you cannot be blind again. So no, it's not the human will that is following God, it's the Holy Spirit that compels one to follow God which Ezekeil 36:27 says, " I will move you to follow my decrees and obey my laws." And that is not a lie. And neither is Phillippians 2:13, "For it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purposes." Your claim that we have a choice about that is claiming that the human will is stronger than God's power which another false claim.

So claiming that a person can counter God's power is not only impossible but unbilical.

Heidi,
I would agree with you that in our sin and rebellion we cannot come to Christ without God first acting with the healing ministry of the New Covenant ministry. However, I question your statement that says:
"Your claim that we have a choice" I would like to question.

Just because we need the ministrys of God in our nature to enable us to come to Christ in faith does not mean we dont have a choice. I would agree that this implies that God is responsible for any good choices we make. We are then responsible for only the bad choices we make.

It is true these ministries of God are the reason we make the choice to believe the gospel, but the ministries of God do not take away the ability to make choices. I think many are reading your statement to suggest that we make no choices. We choose, not because of coercion. Rather God changes our nature to enable us to obey, and then provides the drawing neccessary so that we will obey. The decision we make is irresistabe, but it is still a decision. There is still a choice, even if God is responsible for the choice.

Is there any chance you could reword your statement to withdraw the possible implication that we make no choices?

 

[MarkT]

What about the verse 'knock and the door shall be opened' etc. I always thought that was about letting Jesus into your life?

Jesus was the Word of God and the words of God come from the Word of God. So letting Jesus into your heart is letting the words of God into your heart. You will find the words of God in the Scriptures. The Scriptures are the O.T. Receive the words of God and treasure up his commandments. Proverbs 2:1

As for the discussion about whether election is random...

If election does happen as believed by many of this forum, then I think random is quite close to the mark, but not quite the right word. As God designs us it can be no part of our character that makes him elect us otherwise you could argue why didn't he give others that characteristic. If God elects it is just whoever he feels like. So in that sense random.

I find it interesting how huge this discussion has become. Does it really matter either way? I believe God has the power to do all the non-free will bunch describe. But I don't believe he uses that power all the time - it contradicts too much.

No. The elect are not chosen randomly. We were with God in the beginning.

 

[jgredline]

Then Joshua gathered all the tribes of Israel to Shechem and called for the elders of Israel, for their heads, for their judges, and for their officers; and they presented themselves before God. 2 And Joshua said to all the people, "Thus says the Lord God of Israel: Your fathers, including Terah, the father of Abraham and the father of Nahor, dwelt on the other side of the River in old times; and they served other gods. 3 Then I took your father Abraham from the other side of the River, led him throughout all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his descendants and gave him Isaac. 4 To Isaac I gave Jacob and Esau. To Esau I gave the mountains of Seir to possess, but Jacob and his children went down to Egypt. 5 Also I sent Moses and Aaron, and I plagued Egypt, according to what I did among them. Afterward I brought you out.

6 Then I brought your fathers out of Egypt, and you came to the sea; and the Egyptians pursued your fathers with chariots and horsemen to the Red Sea. 7 So they cried out to the Lord; and He put darkness between you and the Egyptians, brought the sea upon them, and covered them. And your eyes saw what I did in Egypt. Then you dwelt in the wilderness a long time. 8 And I brought you into the land of the Amorites, who dwelt on the other side of the Jordan, and they fought with you. But I gave them into your hand, that you might possess their land, and I destroyed them from before you. 9 Then Balak the son of Zippor, king of Moab, arose to make war against Israel, and sent and called Balaam the son of Beor to curse you. 10 But I would not listen to Balaam; therefore he continued to bless you. So I delivered you out of his hand. 11 Then you went over the Jordan and came to Jericho. And the men of Jericho fought against you-also the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites. But I delivered them into your hand. 12 I sent the hornet before you which drove them out from before you, also the two kings of the Amorites, but not with your sword or with your bow. 13 I have given you a land for which you did not labor, and cities which you did not build, and you dwell in them; you eat of the vineyards and olive groves which you did not plant.

14 "Now therefore, fear the Lord, serve Him in sincerity and in truth, and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt. Serve the Lord! 15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

16 So the people answered and said: "Far be it from us that we should forsake the Lord to serve other gods; 17 for the Lord our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, who did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way that we went and among all the people through whom we passed. 18 And the Lord drove out from before us all the people, including the Amorites who dwelt in the land. We also will serve the Lord, for He is our God."

19 But Joshua said to the people, "You cannot serve the Lord, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. 20 If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and consume you, after He has done you good."

21 And the people said to Joshua, "No, but we will serve the Lord!"

22 So Joshua said to the people, "You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen the Lord for yourselves, to serve Him."

And they said, "We are witnesses!"

23 "Now therefore," he said, "put away the foreign gods which are among you, and incline your heart to the Lord God of Israel."

24 And the people said to Joshua, "The Lord our God we will serve, and His voice we will obey!"

25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made for them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem.

26 Then Joshua wrote these words in the Book of the Law of God. And he took a large stone, and set it up there under the oak that was by the sanctuary of the Lord. 27 And Joshua said to all the people, "Behold, this stone shall be a witness to us, for it has heard all the words of the Lord which He spoke to us. It shall therefore be a witness to you, lest you deny your God." 28 So Joshua let the people depart, each to his own inheritance.

 

[MarkT]

Put that verse together with: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him" and what do you get? You get, those who knock are being drawn by God. So once again. the whole key is that no one knows if he is being drawn by God or not. So we are all without excuse. You have to put all of scripture together to form interpretations that are correct. One cannot take verses out of context because the bible doesn't contradict itself.

No one would be saved if it wasn't the will of God. If God hadn't declared it, no one would be saved. As the Psalmist wrote, "They have all gone astray, they are all alike corrupt; there is no one that does good, no, not one." So people don't believe in God because they know God. They believe in God because God pulls them in. There are two parables that describe the kingdom that show the servants of God are sent out to gather, even compel, people into the banquet hall. Luke 14:23 and Matthew 22:10. The good and the bad are gathered. So this explains why we have both the good and the bad in the churches of God today. There's absolutely nothing of our doing in it. The only reason we believe is because it is God's goodwill that we believe. So why would God pull in the good and the bad? Well, interestingly enough the bad challenge us to go to the Bible and seek the words of God and to find the knowledge of God. So it's so we don't become lazy in our way. We are put to the test; refined. God gives growth. The stronger we become, the more God gives us.

 

[mondar]

Then Joshua gathered all the tribes of Israel to Shechem and called for the elders of Israel, for their heads, for their judges, and for their officers; and they presented themselves before... material deleted... "choose you this day."

Israel chose, and while they said they chose God, the nation in history did not follow the commandments. Why? The verse below explains why Israel only said they chose God and yet did not chose God.

Deuteronomy 29:4
"Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear."

Had YHWH given Israel a heart to know, it would have created a desire in the Israelites to trust in God and obey him. Israel was a nation (as all mankind) with a heart bent on rebellion. The promise of God is that some day Israel will believe and follow him, but first an action must happen before they will believe. This action is described in Deuteronomy 30:6
Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

To this day, God has not circumcised the heart of Israel and they live in rebellion and disobedience. They are still under the curses of dispersion mentioned in Deuteronomy 28. Israel has the responsibility to believe found in the verses quoted by jgredline, but they do not have the divine enablement in the verses found in Deuteronomy 30:6. Israel still has no enablement as mentioned in Deuteronomy 29:4. As such they cannot believe. This does not mean that God has not enabled a remnant to believe, but the nation is still characterized by rebellion and unbelief.

I look forward to the day when God will circumcise their hearts and then they will choose him and actually follow his commandments.

 

[MarkT]

Then Joshua gathered all the tribes of Israel to Shechem and called for the elders of Israel, for their heads, for their judges, and for their officers; and they presented themselves before God. 2 And Joshua said to all the people, "Thus says the Lord God of Israel: Your fathers, including Terah, the father of Abraham and the father of Nahor, dwelt on the other side of the River in old times; and they served other gods. 3 Then I took your father Abraham from the other side of the River, led him throughout all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his descendants and gave him Isaac. 4 To Isaac I gave Jacob and Esau. To Esau I gave the mountains of Seir to possess, but Jacob and his children went down to Egypt. 5 Also I sent Moses and Aaron, and I plagued Egypt, according to what I did among them. Afterward I brought you out.

6 Then I brought your fathers out of Egypt, and you came to the sea; and the Egyptians pursued your fathers with chariots and horsemen to the Red Sea. 7 So they cried out to the Lord; and He put darkness between you and the Egyptians, brought the sea upon them, and covered them. And your eyes saw what I did in Egypt. Then you dwelt in the wilderness a long time. 8 And I brought you into the land of the Amorites, who dwelt on the other side of the Jordan, and they fought with you. But I gave them into your hand, that you might possess their land, and I destroyed them from before you. 9 Then Balak the son of Zippor, king of Moab, arose to make war against Israel, and sent and called Balaam the son of Beor to curse you. 10 But I would not listen to Balaam; therefore he continued to bless you. So I delivered you out of his hand. 11 Then you went over the Jordan and came to Jericho. And the men of Jericho fought against you-also the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites. But I delivered them into your hand. 12 I sent the hornet before you which drove them out from before you, also the two kings of the Amorites, but not with your sword or with your bow. 13 I have given you a land for which you did not labor, and cities which you did not build, and you dwell in them; you eat of the vineyards and olive groves which you did not plant.

14 "Now therefore, fear the Lord, serve Him in sincerity and in truth, and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt. Serve the Lord! 15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

jr

This has nothing to do with belief. The question was who will you serve; the gods of your fathers or the gods of the Amorites or will you serve the LORD? There is no question that men can follow false gods. But there is no question that the people of Israel had seen the power of God and that they believed God was God. Notice what they said after Joshua reminded them of all that God had done for them; all that they had seen and experienced. 'So the people answered and said: "Far be it from us that we should forsake the Lord to serve other gods; 17 for the Lord our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, who did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way that we went and among all the people through whom we passed. 18 And the Lord drove out from before us all the people, including the Amorites who dwelt in the land. We also will serve the Lord, for He is our God.' So the people witnessed that they had seen the power of God; that God had led them out of Egypt, that they had seen the great signs; the pillar of fire and the pillar of cloud. The people said, 'He is our God.' So the question was whether they would serve God or other gods. As to belief, they believed because they had seen. They say seeing is believing. But you could say since there was something to choose between, they did choose. But the choice was to serve God or other gods. I don't think you can claim you chose to serve God after he led you out of Egypt. And even if you saw a great sign, I don't think you can claim your belief was a choice. Even the people of Israel didn't make this claim.

 

[dancing queen]

Heidi, I still can't match what you are saying with the verse I posted from Zechariah. It says that they made their hearts hard.

If 'they' turned from God and made their hearts hard, how does this fit with your views. If its that Satan had entered them then why does it not say so as it does with Judas?

With regards to if God draws them they will not be able to resist, how does fit with 'many are called, but few are chosen'?

 

[dancing queen]

A child knows its parents and if you were of God, you would know your Father. You wouldn't say you chose him. What? Is God supposed to thank you for choosing him? Ungrateful child; your Father gives you a gift and you 'choose' to accept it? Like, 'Gee, thanks son. I really appreciate that you chose my gift!'

Do you think God would leave anything up to you? Did you create the universe? Were you there to advise him? Choosing God makes it sound like God can't do anything without you. That's why the godless say we invented God.

MarkT - the way you responded to my post here upset me somewhat. I am trying to understand your views and test my opinions on all this and you talk down to me implying I am ungrateful for what God has done in my life. The way you respond makes it hard for me to even consider the theology you offer. If you have no free will, and this is right, and God is control of you, why are you so mean to me for my lack of understanding (as I assume you see it).

I have said before, I believe God can control everything. I also believe He wants us to love Him because we do, not because He forced us, what kind of love is that.

The way you describe your theology makes God sound cruel. The God I know isn't cruel - He is just.

 

[Heidi]

Heidi, I still can't match what you are saying with the verse I posted from Zechariah. It says that they made their hearts hard.

If 'they' turned from God and made their hearts hard, how does this fit with your views. If its that Satan had entered them then why does it not say so as it does with Judas?

With regards to if God draws them they will not be able to resist, how does fit with 'many are called, but few are chosen'?

First of all, they're not my views, they're quotes from the bible. So again, you have to put the verse in Zecheriah together with the verses that I quoted and Isaiah 6:10,

"Make the heart of this people calloused, make their ears dull and close their eyes, otherwise, they might see with their eyes, ehar with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."

That illustrates my point perfectly. Since the bible does not contradict itself, then you have to come up with an interpretation that does not contradict scripture. So as I've said all along, the only interpretation that doesn't contradict scripture is that no one knows if God is hardening his heart or drawing him, so to him, he's making his own decisions. So from the persepctive of man, he thinks he has free will. But in reality, God is pulling his strings, just like my analogy of parents and children. And God wants it that way just like we parents want our children to think they are making their own decisions when in reality, we are producing consequences or not producing consequences for their decisions. :wink: That is biblical and the only interpretation that reconciles all scripture together concerning free will. Otherwise the notion that man chooses anything of his own free will contradicts all the scripture I quoted so it cannot be correct. :wink:

 

[Guest]

First of all, they're not my views, they're quotes from the bible. So again, you have to put the verse in Zecheriah together with the verses that I quoted and Isaiah 6:10,

"Make the heart of this people calloused, make their ears dull and close their eyes, otherwise, they might see with their eyes, ehar with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."

That illustrates my point perfectly. Since the bible does not contradict itself, then you have to come up with an interpretation that does not contradict scripture. So as I've said all along, the only interpretation that doesn't contradict scripture is that no one knows if God is hardening his heart or drawing him, so to him, he's making his own decisions. So from the persepctive of man, he thinks he has free will. But in reality, God is pulling his strings, just like my analogy of parents and children. And God wants it that way just like we parents want our children to think they are making their own decisions when in reality, we are producing consequences or not producing consequences for their decisions. :wink: That is biblical and the only interpretation that reconciles all scripture together concerning free will. Otherwise the notion that man chooses anything of his own free will contradicts all the scripture I quoted so it cannot be correct. :wink:

Heidi - you have clearly stated here that "God pulls the strings".

I have but ONE SIMPLE QUESTION for you - and I would ask that you do not dodge it.

Since you said that GOD PULLS THE STRINGS - who is responsible for when I sin?

If GOD is pulling the strings, then it is GOD who is responsible when I sin, and not I. It wasn't me who CHOOSE to sin, but GOD who FORCED me too.

This is YOUR ARGUEMENT and LOGIC - do YOU believe that to be BIBLICAL?

I was doing some reading, and I came across two verses that I linked together (like you are always 'linking' verses together) - I was hoping that you would provide commentary on them:

Matthew 27:5 and Luke 10:37

 

[Heidi]

Heidi - you have clearly stated here that "God pulls the strings".

I have but ONE SIMPLE QUESTION for you - and I would ask that you do not dodge it.

Since you said that GOD PULLS THE STRINGS - who is responsible for when I sin?

If GOD is pulling the strings, then it is GOD who is responsible when I sin, and not I. It wasn't me who CHOOSE to sin, but GOD who FORCED me too.

This is YOUR ARGUEMENT and LOGIC - do YOU believe that to be BIBLICAL?

I was doing some reading, and I came across two verses that I linked together (like you are always 'linking' verses together) - I was hoping that you would provide commentary on them:

Matthew 27:5 and Luke 10:37

Paul explains that in Romans 9:16-20. So it's not my logic, it's God's. ( And by the way, we're not sallowed to use caps here because they are considered too forceful). Paul says; "Who are you O man to talk back to God?" So read on further to see why.

What comes out of us comes back to us just like a river returning to its source. So because we were all born in sin, we are guilty. It doesn't therefore matter whether we can help ourselves or not, we are guilty. If God is drawing us, we have the ability to admit that. If he isn't, then Satan is blinding our eyes to the truth as 2 Corinthains 4;4 tells us. But again, the key is that no one knows if he isbeing called by God or blinded by Satan. So he can respond to the deisres of his heart and will be held accountable for them. Either way, we cannot escape our guilt but for the death of Christ.

And I have to have enormous patience to put up with remarks like, "I would ask you not to dodge it." I have not dodged any question. To answer all the posts here, I would have to sit here all day and make sure that I see every one of them which I don't have the time to do. Since we all fall short of the glory of God, I could just as easily find some snide remark to make about you. But that doesn't help build others up, but instead, tries to tear them down which causes further divisions among Christians. And if this continues, I will dodge personal attacks because they prove nothing except the desire to hurt someone who disagrees with you.

 

[Guest]

What comes out of us comes back to us just like a river returning to its source. So because we were all born in sin, we are guilty. It doesn't therefore matter whether we can help ourselves or not, we are guilty. If God is drawing us, we have the ability to admit that. If he isn't, then Satan is blinding our eyes to the truth as 2 Corinthains 4;4 tells us. Either way, we cannot escape our guilt but for the death of Christ.

I am sorry Heidi, but you did not answer the question - you said that "God pulls the strings" - therefore, the sin I was born into was because of "God pulling the strings". Therefore, how am I responsible? How can I be held guilty for something that God did?

Again this is your arguement that "God pulls the strings".

You are suggesting that God will punish me - regardless if I did it or not. You said that regardless of "whether we can help ourselves or not" - we are guilty. So God pulls the strings, but I am guilty!

Sorry Heidi - but this is incorrect.

And I have to have enormous patience to put up with remarks like, "I would ask you not to dodge it." I have not dodged any question. To answer all the posts here, I would have to sit here all day and make sure that I see every one of them which I don't have the time to do. Since we all fall short of the glory of God, I could just as easily find some snide remark to make about you. But that doesn't help build others up, but instead, tries to tear them down which causes further divisions among Christians. And if this continues, I will dodge personal attacks because they prove nothing except the desire to hurt someone who disagrees with him.

I would be careful of pride Heidi - it appears that you are building yourself up. Perhaps you would like me to list all the personal attack remarks you have written against me?

I asked you not to dodge this question - because you have a tendency not to specifically answer questions directed at you. Perhaps you innocently have missed them, if that is the case - then I understand.

 

[Heidi]

I would be careful of pride Heidi - it appears that you are building yourself up. Perhaps you would like me to list all the personal attack remarks you have written against me?

I asked you not to dodge this question - because you have a tendency not to specifically answer questions directed at you. Perhaps you innocently have missed them, if that is the case - then I understand.

I did answer it; because you're guilty of sin whether or not you chose to be born in sin or not. That's a simple reality. :wink: And since none of us chose to be born, then free choice has nothing to do with sin. It's simply a reality that humans sin and only Jesus Christ's through the Holy Spirit can save us from it. That's all there is to it, Alone.

Or perhaps you think you were born perfect and somewhere along the line you didn't like being perfect so you chose to sin. :o If so, then that couldn't be further from the truth. :roll: