Free will or no free will?

[Guest]

Heidi - the contradictory comments are coming from YOU!

You said and I quote:

Man doesn't know if he is being drawn by God until he receives the Holy Spirit. Therefore there is always hope for every single person until the day he dies. So again the key is that only God knows who is elect are so from man's perspective, all have a chance to be saved.

According to you, every single person DOES NOT have hope, because it is only the elect that are saved. Unless you are attempting to say that EVERYONE is a member of the elect.

Not to mention that you are now making bold face lies: And again I quote:

yet you're still implying that people freely choose God because of the questions you ask and you still don't give credit to God for your faith even though you claim you do. Otherwise you would know where the desire to seek God comes from.

I have said NUMEROUS times that it is the Holy Spirit who convicts a person of their sin and need of a Savior. At the time of conviction - that person has a responsibility to make a decision to accept the offering of the Holy Spirit or not. The Holy Spirit merely gives the desire of the heart - to accept or reject.

If you have any question as to whom I give credit too, I would suggest that you read what I have already posted - and I quote myself:

No - I realize my sin. I realize that it is I that sins, and not God pulling my strings. I realize my RESPONSIBILITY. I give God all the honor and glory for convicting me of my sin, for opening my eyes to my sin and my need of a Saviour. I give Him the glory that I might work in His kingdrom for His glory. I realize that He has given me an awesome responsibility to teach so that others might come to see their need of a Saviour and choose God rather than their sin. It is my pleasure to serve at the pleasure of my Lord - knowing that when I have failed him through my actions and not blaiming the strings of another - that He has asked me to step aside while He works in me to restore me.

or you visit my personal website (some of which is still in the works) and read the testimony and beliefs section:

http://mysite.verizon.net/peacefulalternative

Lastly - I have witnessed to those that do not believe, and I have seen God pull them to himself and reveal Himself to them. I am sorry that you do nto believe that athiests can come to know Christ. God is amazing, do not limit His ability to convict an athiest of their sin and need of a Savior.

 

[MarkT]

MarkT - the way you responded to my post here upset me somewhat. I am trying to understand your views and test my opinions on all this and you talk down to me implying I am ungrateful for what God has done in my life. The way you respond makes it hard for me to even consider the theology you offer. If you have no free will, and this is right, and God is control of you, why are you so mean to me for my lack of understanding (as I assume you see it).

I have said before, I believe God can control everything. I also believe He wants us to love Him because we do, not because He forced us, what kind of love is that.

The way you describe your theology makes God sound cruel. The God I know isn't cruel - He is just.

Yes just. And what does just mean to you? The LORD chose Israel to be his people but they turned away. God didn't force them to turn away. But he knew they would. Probably because he knew what kind of people they were.

Doesn't the Holy Spirit teach you what to say? Doesn't the LORD lead you in the way you should go? Doesn't God love those who come to him? He loves those who put their trust in him. Doesn't God keep covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments? And doesn't he requite those who hate him by destroying them?

A son loves his father. Let me ask you; you believe God is your Father don't you? When did you choose to love him? I don't believe my parents ever forced me to love them and I'm pretty sure I didn't choose to. I love them because they love me. And it's like that with God. God doesn't force us to love him. You know the story of the prodigal son? He came to his right mind. And that's what it is. It's not a choice. You can see your condition. You know your Father. There's no choice there. You know the path. Again there's no choice. When he saw his son on the path from afar his father went out to meet him. That's the way it is.

 

[MarkT]

Since you said that GOD PULLS THE STRINGS - who is responsible for when I sin?

If GOD is pulling the strings, then it is GOD who is responsible when I sin, and not I. It wasn't me who CHOOSE to sin, but GOD who FORCED me too.

Who do you pray to to lead you not into temptation but deliver you from evil? If you don't believe God can lead you from temptation then what do you believe? As for your responsibility, I think you've established that. Don't you realize that you will be condemned by your own words?!! Why is sin still an issue with you? Didn't you die to sin with Christ? Sin has no power over us.

 

[MarkT]

Do you all have some kind of insane desire to be responsible for your sins?

 

[MarkT]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't wish to break the flow of converstation but I have a question which relates to the thread and I didn't want to start another one.

When Jesus is in the garden of Gethsemane He basically prays please don't make me do this if there is another way, but not my will but Yours be done.

I have always taken Jesus' prayers as an example for my own. And thus when I am facing something horrible should pray in the same way. But that make no sense, if I have no free will then I don't need to pray the not my will but yours be done bit. I can't turn away even if I want to.

I also thought the garden of Gethsemane highlights how human Jesus was, and how to follow God's will. But this can't be true from the non free will perspetive, can it?

I just can't get my head around how Christians can do awful horrific things if we have no free will and God is controlling us. Does God want Christians to do awful things for some greater good?

Any thoughts much appreciated, I am deeply troubled by this thread.

You need to understand something. A man plans his way. So if you have a mind to do something, it is called your will. I mean the thing you plan, what you think, what you have in mind, is your will. We all plan our way. The issue isn't whether we plan our way. The issue should be what we have in mind. Why is it always sin with you people? Can't you keep your mind on God? Why are you people so rebellious? What if God does direct our steps and so keeps us from evil? Is that so terrible? Do you want God to let you fall? Is it because you feel so sure of yourselves that you don't need God or is it because you want to sin? Is the freedom to sin so important to you that you have to insist upon it? Because God will grant you your wish.

 

[MarkT]

Apparently you all need to see the pillar of fire in front of you before you will believe that it is God who is leading you out of temptation and it is God who is delivering you from evil.

 

[Vic C.]

Apparently you all need to see the pillar of fire in front of you before you will believe that it is God who is leading you out of temptation and it is God who is delivering you from evil.

Mark, I can agree with that, but Jesus does say we must ask to be led from temptation and to be delivered from evil.

An example:

Wed. morning, I did something I deeply regreted. It took a while for it to sink in though. All through the day I felt more and more miserable and eventually remosre did set in.

By the time I got to Prayer Meeting that night, I was both emotionally and spiritually drained. I broke down in tears during prayer and asked God to forgive me for what I have done. Though I woke up the following morning to a dreary, rainy day, it was like the sun was shining. He delivered, but not until I asked. I'm sure HE would have let me wallow for as long as it took.

Though I am not a fan of the way many use the Potter and clay analogy, in a sence, we are clay pots. If one knows anything about clay, it is a porous material. When it is filled up with water, eventually it will "sweat" through those pores and the clay pot will begin to lose it's water. We need to be filled from time to time and we need to ask to be filled.

Anyway, I digress.

 

[jgredline]

Vic
Great post....Here you have an example of Romans 8 in effect...If our flesh did not continue to sin, then there would be no need for Romans 8...I have said many times, that when one sins and knows that he / she sinned and is born again, there will be a war going on inside the believer that if not dealt with, will lead to spiritual depression....But yes, we have to ''choose'' to repent and ask for forgiveness....

I don't want to side track the thread, but Vic did touch on it and I wll say a little more....The scriptures do teach and we are commanded to ''be, being filled with the Holy Spirit....''It is a continual process, not a one time deal...So who's choice is it to continue to be, being filled? It is our choice......

 

[Heidi]

Vic
Great post....Here you have an example of Romans 8 in effect...If our flesh did not continue to sin, then there would be no need for Romans 8...I have said many times, that when one sins and knows that he / she sinned and is born again, there will be a war going on inside the believer that if not dealt with, will lead to spiritual depression....But yes, we have to ''choose'' to repent and ask for forgiveness....

I don't want to side track the thread, but Vic did touch on it and I wll say a little more....The scriptures do teach and we are commanded to ''be, being filled with the Holy Spirit....''It is a continual process, not a one time deal...So who's choice is it to continue to be, being filled? It is our choice......

We all respond to our least stressful option, so it's hardly a choice. Our repentence comes from conviction by the Holy Spirit jsut like Jacob's "decision" to come to God came when God broke his hip. So once again, trying to give credit to the human being for his "good deeds" and repentence won't work. Only God must be glorified, not the human being. So it's good to remember Ezekiel 36:27, "I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to obey my laws." We need to remember that so we don't keep the sin of pride. :wink:

 

[Vic C.]

Heidi, calm down. I wasn't trying to take credit for my conviction. I will say I take credit for ignoring the conviction for as long as I did. I should have known better the moment I committed the transgression, but instead, I let it fester.

Tell me, if God is the controller of ALL our thoughts, emotions and actions, is HE responsible for the harsh way you post at times? Do you not take responsibility for your actions or do you just shrug them off?

BTW, who was God speaking about when HE revealed that to Ezekiel? I'll hive you in hint; it's in the following verse.

 

[jgredline]

Heidi
With all due respect I have stopped responding to many of your posts because you keep contradicting your self, a fact that has been pointed out by many folks here...It seems as if often times you respond to folks posts, ''without even reading them''

If you were to go back and read Vics post and my postings in context in this thread, you would know that we do not take credit for our salvation and we do not take credit for recognizing our fleshly sins...and that your statement is false...

 

[jgredline]

Vic
I looks as if we were typing at the same time and somewhat thinking along the same lines again....

 

[Diolectic]

Matthew 23:37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one killing the prophets and stoning those sent to her. How often I desired to gather your children in the way a bird gathers her chicks under her wings! but you were not willing!

This is a great example of free will.

 

[Vic C.]

Matthew 23:37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one killing the prophets and stoning those sent to her. How often I desired to gather your children in the way a bird gathers her chicks under her wings! but you were not willing!

This is a great example of free will.

Diolectric, there are examples like that all throughout Scripture. Yet we will be told that God chooses whether we are willing or not. :-?

 

[Heidi]

Heidi
With all due respect I have stopped responding to many of your posts because you keep contradicting your self, a fact that has been pointed out by many folks here...It seems as if often times you respond to folks posts, ''without even reading them''

If you were to go back and read Vics post and my postings in context in this thread, you would know that we do not take credit for our salvation and we do not take credit for recognizing our fleshly sins...and that your statement is false...

So where have I contradicted myself or any scripture? :o So far, I'm the only one who hasn't contradicted scripture but instead hs reconciled all scripture together. So it's others who are not reading my posts. :roll:

Claiming that one has free will but is controlled by the Holy Spirit is the contradiction. So which is it?Where's the freedom? Do you know what slave means? Paul specifically calls us slaves to the Spirit or slaves to the sinful nature as Romans 8 also does. So then how can you claim that it is the human being who is choosing to do right instead of the power of the Holy Spirit inside of him and at the same time say you're not taking credit for your choices? : :o That is another contradiction, my friend. ;-)

And I can assure you, on a forum where most people don't believe in freee will, you'd be in the minority. But I can assure you that i would not name all the psoters who disagree with you which is a mob mentality. So I'd apprecitate it if you would give me the same courtesy. :wink:

 

[Atonement]

Everyone take a deep breath before you post. Innnn and outtttt

Claiming that one has free will but is controlled by the Holy Spirit is the contradiction. So which is it?Where's the freedom? Do you know what slave means?

Heidi, I'll just touch on this for a moment. Heidi I know you were not personally asking me if I knew what a slave is/was. However I believe through Scripture that it means Servant. Can I quote just a few Scriptures just to prove my point for a moment? Thanks Heidi

Mar 10:44 And whoever of you desires to be first shall be slave of all. NKJV

Mar 10:44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. KJV

Mat 20:27 And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave-- NKJV

Mat 20:27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: KJV

Jhn 8:35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. NKJV

Jhn 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. KJV

1Cr 7:21 Were you called while a slave? Do not be concerned about it; but if you can be made free, rather use it. NKJV

1Cr 7:21 Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather. KJV

1Cr 7:22 For he who is called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord's free man. Likewise he who is called while free is Christ's slave. NKJV

1Cr 7:22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's free man: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant. KJV

In many Scriptures (other then what I quoted here) they also indicate that a slave is nothing more than a servant of the Lord. Now a servant is one who humbles themself to do the Will of the Lord right?

If you notice 1Cr 7:22 it say's rather we are a Servant (of the Lord) we are free and if we are free we are servants of ther Lord. In other words, I can turn my back on the Lord because that's my choice and can commit suicide. But being a servant of the Lord I am drawn to Him through my spirit. So we have a free will but we are drawn to Him as His servants through the spirit. Does that make sense?

 

[Heidi]

Everyone take a deep breath before you post. Innnn and outtttt




Heidi, I'll just touch on this for a moment. Heidi I know you were not personally asking me if I knew what a slave is/was. However I believe through Scripture that it means Servant. Can I quote just a few Scriptures just to prove my point for a moment? Thanks Heidi

Mar 10:44 And whoever of you desires to be first shall be slave of all. NKJV

Mar 10:44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. KJV

Mat 20:27 And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave-- NKJV

Mat 20:27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: KJV

Jhn 8:35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. NKJV

Jhn 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. KJV

1Cr 7:21 Were you called while a slave? Do not be concerned about it; but if you can be made free, rather use it. NKJV

1Cr 7:21 Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather. KJV

1Cr 7:22 For he who is called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord's free man. Likewise he who is called while free is Christ's slave. NKJV

1Cr 7:22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's free man: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant. KJV

In many Scriptures (other then what I quoted here) they also indicate that a slave is nothing more than a servant of the Lord. Now a servant is one who humbles themself to do the Will of the Lord right?

If you notice 1Cr 7:22 it say's rather we are a Servant (of the Lord) we are free and if we are free we are servants of ther Lord. In other words, I can turn my back on the Lord because that's my choice and can commit suicide. But being a servant of the Lord I am drawn to Him through my spirit. So we have a free will but we are drawn to Him as His servants through the spirit. Does that make sense?

Servant and slave are the same thing. But many people who like to elevate themselves think of servanthood as a free choice from the individual instead of a slave. "A man is a slave to whatever has mastered him." Again, a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him." If the Holy Spirit masters him, he will respond to the Spirit. If the sinful nature has mastered him, he will respond to the sinful nature as Romans 8 tells us. But as Romans 7:25 tells us, humans with the holy Spirit are as paul says, "in my mind a slave to God's law, and in my sinful nautre a slave to the law of sin."

But we Christians can take consolation in the fact that the Holy Spirit is bigger than Satan and will eventually conquer our sinful nature. But that doesn't happen on earth, only in heaven. Otherwise we'd be as perfect as Jesus Christ and worshiped right along with him. And that's exactly why God didn't remove the thorn from Paul's flesh; so that he would not become conceited.

 

[GMS]

Matthew 23:37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one killing the prophets and stoning those sent to her. How often I desired to gather your children in the way a bird gathers her chicks under her wings! but you were not willing!

This is a great example of free will.

If you read this verse in context, one may come to the conclusion that it is the spiritual leaders that Jesus is referring to and how they kept the common folks from knowing the truth.
GMS

 

[MarkT]

Mark, I can agree with that, but Jesus does say we must ask to be led from temptation and to be delivered from evil.

What's the choice? Temptation is a snare set for the wicked. Would you ask your Father to be caught in the snare knowing that your Father set it for the wicked? I think our choices are definitely limited by our knowledge. I mean the more you know and the more you understand the fear of God, the more you will see things not as choices but as saving graces. I mean, would you knowingly choose hell? And saying we must ask God is not a choice. Jesus taught us how to pray. Choosing hell is not a logical choice.

 

[Heidi]

Will someone please explain how doing something that one does not want to do is a choice. :o Once a person understands that Paul did not want to do evil, only then will he even have a clue what Paul is talking about in Romans 7:13-25, and not until. :roll: