Free will or no free will?

[Guest]

Heidi - Romans 9 speaks of the relationship God has with Israel and Gentiles.

It is vitallty imporatant to understand the WHO, WHAT, WHEN, and WHERE, when understanding the Scripture.

You need to understand WHO Paul was writting too to understand WHAT Paul was writing,

BTW: My use of caps is my way of bolding comments. I believe the TOS speaks of excessive use of CAPS and/or whole posts written in CAPS.

I guess they really did not have a choice then: Joshua 24:15 - seems disengenious of Joshua to ask them to choose whom they will serve, when they really did not have a choice.

 

[Heidi]

I would be careful of pride Heidi - it appears that you are building yourself up. Perhaps you would like me to list all the personal attack remarks you have written against me?

I asked you not to dodge this question - because you have a tendency not to specifically answer questions directed at you. Perhaps you innocently have missed them, if that is the case - then I understand.

What personal attacks? An attack is an untrue statement made to hurt someone. The comments I made about you came from your own comments. But the truth can never be considered an attack even though the Pharisees and all those Jesus rebuked thought so. And since I don't dodge questions, then your comment was untrue. I have answered many questions by you and everyone else, even though I have told you that I will not respond to ridiculous arguments, I have still responded to yours. I also explained that I haven't read every post, nor do I ever read all of the posts because I don't have time. So it is a false statement. And I have explained that I have innocently missed them, which someone, when eager to attack, can neglect to see.

 

[Guest]

Or perhaps you think you were born perfect and somewhere along the line you didn't like being perfect so you chose to sin. :o If so, then that couldn't be further from the truth. :roll:

Why do you find it necessary to put words in my mouth? Have I ever suggested that I was born perfect?

No - I realize my sin. I realize that it is I that sins, and not God pulling my strings. I realize my RESPONSIBILITY. I give God all the honor and glory for convicting me of my sin, for opening my eyes to my sin and my need of a Saviour. I give Him the glory that I might work in His kingdrom for His glory. I realize that He has given me an awesome responsibility to teach so that others might come to see their need of a Saviour and choose God rather than their sin. It is my pleasure to serve at the pleasure of my Lord - knowing that when I have failed him through my actions and not blaiming the strings of another - that He has asked me to step aside while He works in me to restore me.

It is a honor to be used by God to equip, train, and nurture others in service to their Saviour.

 

[Heidi]

Heidi - Romans 9 speaks of the relationship God has with Israel and Gentiles.

It is vitallty imporatant to understand the WHO, WHAT, WHEN, and WHERE, when understanding the Scripture.

You need to understand WHO Paul was writting too to understand WHAT Paul was writing,

BTW: My use of caps is my way of bolding comments. I believe the TOS speaks of excessive use of CAPS and/or whole posts written in CAPS.

I guess they really did not have a choice then: Joshua 24:15 - seems disengenious of Joshua to ask them to choose whom they will serve, when they really did not have a choice.

Sorry, Alone, but God is still soveriegn no matter who he's talking to. :roll: He isn't only soveriegn, ominicient, and omnipotent with the Jews, and not omnisicent, omnipotent and sovereign with everyone else. :roll: So this is another ridiculous argument that's a waste of time to lsiten to. So when you have legitimate questions and responses instead of ludicrous claims, I'll respond to them.

And again, you have not read any of my posts. I will say it one last time. Since no one knows if he is being drawn by God or bing blinded by Satan , he can only respond to what's in his heart. He thinks he's making his own choices, but in reality, God is determining his stpes as proverbs 16:9 tells us. So again, you are not believing all scripture, because your interpretation contradicts most of it.

So since you don't read my posts, then answering your questions is a waste of time because I have no desire to keep repeating myself just to have my posts ignored. :roll:

But as long as you're accusing me of dodging questions, then please answer this one of mine:

Or perhaps you think you were born perfect and somewhere along the line you didn't like being perfect so you chose to sin. Is that correct? :o

 

[Guest]

Sorry, Alone, but God is still soveriegn no matter who he's talking to. :roll: He isn't only soveriegn, ominicient, and omnipotent with the Jews, and not omnisicent, omnipotent and sovereign with everyone else. :roll: So this is another ridiculous argument that's a waste of time to lsiten to. So when you have legitimate questions and responses instead of ludicrous claims, I'll respond to them.

Heidi - please quote me where I have said that God isn't soveriegn. What I am saying is that you need to understand WHO Romans 9 is written to so that you can understand the MEANING of Romans 9.

Romans 9 is speaking to the pride of the Jews who did not accept that God was bringing the Gentiles into God's family. Romans 9 speaks to the soveirgnty of God - but not in the way that suggests God "pulls the strings" of those who sin or not. The implications from your posts, using your words is that because God is soveirgn it is He who "pulls the strings". Therefore, when I sin - it wasn't "God pulling the strings" because "God is soverign" and you used Romans 9 as your justification. I am saying that your intrepetation is a misuse of Romans 9 because you have not taken the time to understand WHO Romans 9 is written too.

Perhaps a simple illustration:

I write a letter to my daughter that says "I Love You". Now, if you were to pick up this letter and read it only paying attention to the content of the letter and author of the letter, but NOT to whom I wrote it too - you would have the wrong understanding of the letter.

And again, you have not read any of my posts. I will say it one last time. Since no one knows if he is being drawn by God or bing blinded by Satan , he can only respond to what's in his heart. He thinks he's making his own choices, but in reality, God is determining his stpes as proverbs 16:9 tells us. So again, you are not believing all scripture, because your interpretation contradicts most of it.

Yes - I have read your posts. But to be completely honest - this paragraph makes no sense. You say that "noon knows if he is being drawn by God". Then how do you know you have been 'drawn by God."? Perhaps you are being 'blinded by Satan." Again , it is YOU who are saying "Since no one knows if he is being drawn by God or being blinded by Satan."

So since you don't read my posts, then answering your questions is a waste of time because I have no desire to keep repeating myself just to have my posts ignored. :roll:

But as long as you're accusing me of dodging questions, then please answer this one of mine:

Or perhaps you think you were born perfect and somewhere along the line you didn't like being perfect so you chose to sin. Is that correct? :o

I have already answered this question - perhaps you should read through the thread to see when people respond to your questions.

 

[Heidi]

I have already answered this question - perhaps you should read through the thread to see when people respond to your questions.

Romans is speaking to all of us just like the gospels are, Alone, even though they're addressed to the Jews. So you are in error again. It's simply a fact that it is God's divine election that decides who is saved and who isn't as Jesus also tells us in John 17:9, Ephesians 1:4, Matthew 23:14, John 15:16, Matthew 11:27, and many, many more verses, including Luke 23:34, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." That absolutely claims that they can't help themselves because they're being deceived by Satan. In those he chooses, he gives a heart for God, in those he doesn't choose, he leaves their hearts of stone. But since no one knows if God is calling him, he is accountable for his actions, attitudes, and beliefs. If he wants heaven he can have it. if he doesn't want it, he won't have it. It's that simple. And since it contradicts zero scripture, then I'll keep that interpretation.

So I have no more desire to debate this with you since your interpretation contradicts too much scripture to be true. If you want to take credit for your faith and your deeds instead of giving it to God, then be my guest. But I know you can't helpt yourself so I forgive you. Only the Holy Spirit can give us the humility to know that only God's election decides who is saved and who isn,'t not our own actions, deeds, effort or even desire as Romans 9:16 verifies. Notice that that verse says; "It does not therefore depend on man's own desire or effort..." It doesn't say; "It does not therefore depend on the Jews' own desire or effort..." God picks and choose people from all walks of life. But if you don't believe those verses because you think they were only addressed or apply to the Jews, then I can see why you have no understanding of God's election. It will thus be unproductive to continue this conversation further with you.

 

[Heidi]

I have already answered this question - perhaps you should read through the thread to see when people respond to your questions.

No you hve not answered that question because it was only a few posts up So it is you who needs to read through the posts and quote your answer to that specific question. ;-)

But since you know that no one was born sinless except Christ, you also know that man has no choice or control over sin, but that we instead are in bondage to sin from which only Jesus can free us, then I can see why you avoided answering the question because it defeats your whole argument. So for that reason and the other ones I gave you, then further discussion between us about this will be unproductive.

 

[Guest]

No you hve not answered that question because it was only a few posts up So it is you who needs to read through the posts and quote your answer to that specific question. ;-)

Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 5:18 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

wrote:


Or perhaps you think you were born perfect and somewhere along the line you didn't like being perfect so you chose to sin. If so, then that couldn't be further from the truth.

Why do you find it necessary to put words in my mouth? Have I ever suggested that I was born perfect?

No - I realize my sin. I realize that it is I that sins, and not God pulling my strings. I realize my RESPONSIBILITY. I give God all the honor and glory for convicting me of my sin, for opening my eyes to my sin and my need of a Saviour. I give Him the glory that I might work in His kingdrom for His glory. I realize that He has given me an awesome responsibility to teach so that others might come to see their need of a Saviour and choose God rather than their sin. It is my pleasure to serve at the pleasure of my Lord - knowing that when I have failed him through my actions and not blaiming the strings of another - that He has asked me to step aside while He works in me to restore me.

It is a honor to be used by God to equip, train, and nurture others in service to their Saviour.
_________________
Because of Him

I did answer your specific question :D

 

[Heidi]

I did answer your specific question :D

And to whom do you give the credit for your faith and deeds? To you or the Holy Spirit?

 

[Guest]

Romans is speaking to all of us just like the gospels are, Alone, even though they're addressed to the Jews. So you are in error again. It's simply a fact that it is God's divine election that decides who is saved and who isn't as Jesus also tells us in John 17:9, Ephesians 1:4, Matthew 23:14, John 15:16, Matthew 11:27, and many, many more verses, including Luke 23:34, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." That absolutely claims that they can't help themselves because they're being deceived by Satan. In those he chooses, he gives a heart for God, in those he doesn't choose, he leaves their hearts of stone. But since no one knows if God is calling him, he is accountable for his actions, attitudes, and beliefs. If he wants heaven he can have it. if he doesn't want it, he won't have it. It's that simple. And since it contradicts zero scripture, then I'll keep that interpretation.

Heidi - how can you say:

It's simply a fact that it is God's divine election that decides who is saved and who isn't as Jesus also tells us in John 17:9, Ephesians 1:4, Matthew 23:14, John 15:16, Matthew 11:27, and many, many more verses, including Luke 23:34, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."

and then in the same paragraph say:

If he wants heaven he can have it. if he doesn't want it, he won't have it. It's that simple.

I thought we could not choose/want heaven?

So I have no more desire to debate this with you since your interpretation contradicts too much scripture to be true.

Acts 2:22-23 says: "22"Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

23this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death."

Who nailed Jesus to the Cross? Who is responsible? God who predetermined it or the "men of Israel"?

If you want to take credit for your faith and your deeds instead of giving it to God, then be my guest.

Please quote me where I have taken credit for my faith or my deeds? Please provide a specific quote

But I know you can't helpt yourself so I forgive you.

The only forgiveness I seek is that from God. When I have personally wronged you, I will seek your forgiveness.

Only the Holy Spirit can give us the humility to know that only God's election decides who is saved and who isn,'t not our own actions, deeds, effort or even desire as Romans 9:16 verifies.

The Holy Spirit convicts the non-born again of their need of a Saviour - and that that Saviour is Jesus Christ. It is not of our own recognization that we need a Saviour. Romans 9:16 attests to that.

Notice that that verse says; "It does not therefore depend on man's own desire or effort..." It doesn't say; "It does not therefore depend on the Jews' own desire or effort..." God picks and choose people from all walks of life. But if you don't believe those verses because you think they were only addressed or apply to the Jews, then I can see why you have no understanding of God's election. It will thus be unproductive to continue this conversation further with you.

You are misunderstanding what I was communcating. I did not say that those verses ONLY apply to Jews. Rather, to understand the meaning of the passage you need to understand first WHO it was written to and then you can understand HOW it applies to you.

 

[Guest]

And to whom do you give the credit for your faith and deeds? To you or the Holy Spirit?

WOW! :o :roll: I guess you did not read my answer! It is clearly stated!

 

[Heidi]

You are misunderstanding what I was communcating. I did not say that those verses ONLY apply to Jews. Rather, to understand the meaning of the passage you need to understand first WHO it was written to and then you can understand HOW it applies to you.

Alone, have you read my posts? Did you not see where I wrote that since man doesn't know if God is drawing him, then he thinks he has free will? I fail to see how you could avoid seeing that. So he thinks his choices are free but in reality they have already been determined by God as the bible tells us. If you don't udnerstand that, then that's your first step in order to continue dicussing this.

Your second step is to explain how someone whom God isn't drawinng can come to Christ. ;-)

 

[Guest]

Alone, have you read my posts? Did you not see where I wrote that since man doesn't know if God is drawing him, then he thinks he has free will? I fail to see how you could avoid seeing that. So he thinks his choices are free but in reality they have already been determined by God as the bible tells us. If you don't udnerstand that, then that's your first step in order to continue dicussing this.

Your second step is to explain how someone whom God isn't drawinng can come to Christ. ;-)

Heidi - I do not believe in 'free will'. I believe humanity has a will, but it is not 'free'.

Also, I have read where you say that man doesn't know if God is drawing him or if Satan is blinding him. And I have asked you how YOU know that God drew you and not Satan blinding you. Because you have clearly stated that man doesn't know if it is God drawing or Satan blinding!

If humanities actions have already been decided - you are dealing with FATE not God.

Lastly - I have never said that anyone can come to Christ whom the Holy Spirit hasn't convicted.

 

[dancing queen]

I don't wish to break the flow of converstation but I have a question which relates to the thread and I didn't want to start another one.

When Jesus is in the garden of Gethsemane He basically prays please don't make me do this if there is another way, but not my will but Yours be done.

I have always taken Jesus' prayers as an example for my own. And thus when I am facing something horrible should pray in the same way. But that make no sense, if I have no free will then I don't need to pray the not my will but yours be done bit. I can't turn away even if I want to.

I also thought the garden of Gethsemane highlights how human Jesus was, and how to follow God's will. But this can't be true from the non free will perspetive, can it?

I just can't get my head around how Christians can do awful horrific things if we have no free will and God is controlling us. Does God want Christians to do awful things for some greater good?

Any thoughts much appreciated, I am deeply troubled by this thread.

 

[Guest]

I don't wish to break the flow of converstation but I have a question which relates to the thread and I didn't want to start another one.

When Jesus is in the garden of Gethsemane He basically prays please don't make me do this if there is another way, but not my will but Yours be done.

I have always taken Jesus' prayers as an example for my own. And thus when I am facing something horrible should pray in the same way. But that make no sense, if I have no free will then I don't need to pray the not my will but yours be done bit. I can't turn away even if I want to.

I also thought the garden of Gethsemane highlights how human Jesus was, and how to follow God's will. But this can't be true from the non free will perspetive, can it?

I just can't get my head around how Christians can do awful horrific things if we have no free will and God is controlling us. Does God want Christians to do awful things for some greater good?

Any thoughts much appreciated, I am deeply troubled by this thread.

Very good questions - and I do not want my answers or commentary to be troubling to you or anyone.

Ultimately, all actions can and are used by God for His good purpose. Romans 8:28 - "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. "

But note - it is "to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." When I call my wife, she still needs to pick up the phone. However, she does not get credit for making the phone call.

Look at Job - while I will make it simplified - basically God and Satan had a contest. Satan (within parameters) could do to Job whatever he wished to see if he could get Job to curse God. Now - if God 'rigged" the contest by preordaining Job (pulled the strings, if you will) - that wasn't much of a contest and God would be a cheater. Therefore, since we know that God does not cheat - Job had the ability to curse God - however, Job did not - because Job recognized the Glory of God and the Rightness of God.

I believe Jesus was sent to this earth to secure salvation and to be our example. Being that Jesus was and is God - the Garden reveals that Jesus was firmly planted in the will of the Father. He was placing himself in agreement - an example for us to follow. We need to be in line and agreement with the will of our Father.

Yes - there are those who profess to be Christians, and I believe are Christians, who have turned away from the leading of the Holy Spirit - and have walked in their own light with much destruction in their wake.

The Word of God is "profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness" 2 Tim 3:16.

 

[mondar]

I don't wish to break the flow of converstation but I have a question which relates to the thread and I didn't want to start another one.

When Jesus is in the garden of Gethsemane He basically prays please don't make me do this if there is another way, but not my will but Yours be done.

I have always taken Jesus' prayers as an example for my own. And thus when I am facing something horrible should pray in the same way. But that make no sense, if I have no free will then I don't need to pray the not my will but yours be done bit. I can't turn away even if I want to.

DQ,
You are confusing two separate issues. After regeneration and salvation, there is a degree of free will restored to the christian. We can at that time experience the work of God in our lives and made correct decisions that please God. I see no problem using the term free will in that sense. The problem is that we who deny free will are not referring to decisions we made through the work of God after salvation.

The issue of free will has more to do with faith, and the source of faith. The denial of free will is based upon the doctrine of sin nature (total depravity). Some of us believe that man does not simply make bad choices before salvation, but is by nature in rebellion against God. The only way for us to believe is then for God to first do a work in our lives.

I also thought the garden of Gethsemane highlights how human Jesus was, and how to follow God's will. But this can't be true from the non free will perspetive, can it?

Why not?

I just can't get my head around how Christians can do awful horrific things if we have no free will and God is controlling us. Does God want Christians to do awful things for some greater good?

Any thoughts much appreciated, I am deeply troubled by this thread.

Your sentence is confusing to me. The horrible things done are done because we have a sin nature. This means we are in rebellion against God by nature. We do these horrible things as unbelievers because we have no free will to stop our rebellion against God.

As for God controling us to do wicked things, I would agree that God does not do this. I would see man as sufficiently wicked and rebellous against God that we need no assistance to sin wickedly. As a matter of fact, I believe God restrains sin even among unbelievers in Romans 1. The problem is that God sometime withdraws his hand and "gives us over" to our sin natures. He allows us to expereince the results our our rebellion against him, and then he judges this sin.

One more point, God is still sovereign. After being longsuffering in restraining sin, he removes his restraining hand, and allows sin nature to harden a mans heart, and then judges man for his rebellion. Did God then harden a mans heart? Yes. He absolutely did. He absolutely foreknew what would happen when he no longer restrain sin. He also is sometimes active in hardening hearts in a certain way. In Romans 9, he raised up Pharoah to his rulership. God knew the rebellion in Pharoahs heart. Why did God then raise him to power? The answer is that so he could judge him for his own glory. Did God somehow supernaturally pervert Pharoahs nature? Naa, Pharoah was already sinful, but it having God raise him him, it gave him greater oppertunity to exercise his own depraved nature. So then, in a way, God does have a part in hardening mens hearts, but he is not responsible in any way for the sin of any man. We bear that responsibility.

Talk to you later. Gotta go.

 

[Heidi]

Heidi - I do not believe in 'free will'. I believe humanity has a will, but it is not 'free'.

Also, I have read where you say that man doesn't know if God is drawing him or if Satan is blinding him. And I have asked you how YOU know that God drew you and not Satan blinding you. Because you have clearly stated that man doesn't know if it is God drawing or Satan blinding!

If humanities actions have already been decided - you are dealing with FATE not God.

Lastly - I have never said that anyone can come to Christ whom the Holy Spirit hasn't convicted.

I didn't know that God was drawing me as an unbeliever because of the simple fact that I didn't believe in God then. But once I received the Holy Spirit, I now know that God drew me the whole time because Jesus said that God draws all those who come to him.

Man doesn't know if he is being drawn by God until he receives the Holy Spirit. Therefore there is always hope for every single person until the day he dies. So again the key is that only God knows who is elect are so from man's perspective, all have a chance to be saved.

 

[Guest]

I didn't know that God was drawing me as an unbeliever because of the simple fact that I didn't believe in God then. But once I received the Holy Spirit, I now know that God drew me the whole time because Jesus said that God draws all those who come to him.

Man doesn't know if he is being drawn by God until he receives the Holy Spirit. Therefore there is always hope for every single person until the day he dies. So again the key is that only God knows who is elect are so from man's perspective, all have a chance to be saved.

Oh - so God likes to play a cruel joke - is that what you are saying?

It "appears" that there is 'hope' and it "appears" that "all have a chance to be saved" - but in actuality - only those select few ACTUALLY have "hope" and a "chance to be saved".

I did not know that God opperated only on appearances. This is a strange God that you believe in that dangles carrots and pulls strings - giving the allusion on hope and grace.

I thought you say that humanity as no stake in their salvation - so how can you say that "you received the Holy Spirit" - wasn't the Holy Spirit thrust upon you? You did not receive the Holy Spirit it was trust upon you. Right?

 

[Drew]

Man doesn't know if he is being drawn by God until he receives the Holy Spirit. Therefore there is always hope for every single person until the day he dies. So again the key is that only God knows who is elect are so from man's perspective, all have a chance to be saved.

This is faulty reasoning, if one believes that God makes it certain that a specific subset of people - the elect - get saved.

Here is why:

1. Let's say that Fred, like Heidi if I understand her posts, believes that only a subset of humanity have any possibility at all to be saved and that God fully decides who is in that subset and who is not.

2. Fred, therefore, believes that some people have no hope. The fact that he (Fred) does not know who those specific people are does not change the fact that Fred believes that there are some, as yet unidentified perhaps, who have no hope.

3. Therefore Fred cannot rationally believe that all have a chance to be saved.

The fact that Fred cannot identify individuals does not mean that he believes that all have a chance. By his initial belief in a limited elect, he already has accepted that some have no hope.

There is some truth in Heidi's post - a particular individual such as Fred can always hope that he is in the elect, even to the moment of Fred's own death. But if there is a limited elect, then there must be some for whom there is in fact no hope. So Fred cannot (if he is a rational person) believe that "all have a chance to be saved".

Please do not assume that an inability to identify specific members of the elect means that all humans actually could be in the elect. This is simply not the case.

 

[Heidi]

Oh - so God likes to play a cruel joke - is that what you are saying?

It "appears" that there is 'hope' and it "appears" that "all have a chance to be saved" - but in actuality - only those select few ACTUALLY have "hope" and a "chance to be saved".

I did not know that God opperated only on appearances. This is a strange God that you believe in that dangles carrots and pulls strings - giving the allusion on hope and grace.

I thought you say that humanity as no stake in their salvation - so how can you say that "you received the Holy Spirit" - wasn't the Holy Spirit thrust upon you? You did not receive the Holy Spirit it was trust upon you. Right?

What? :o In those he is drawing he gives the desire because Jesus saidl "He who seeks will find." In those he is not drawing, he does not give the desire. But they don't know that their lack of desire is because they are not called. So they think they're making their own decisions. Have you ever witnessed to atheists? Do you not know that they mock God and have no conscious desire to know God or go to heaven? They are also perfectly happy to have no desire for God, even though they've been incessantly warned about hell. So God's system is more than equitable and fair.

God gave me the desire, Alone because Romans 9;16 says that it isn't man's desire. That's how God drew me. He gave me a heart for him. So you say you don't believe in free will, yet you're still implying that people freely choose God because of the questions you ask and you still don't give credit to God for your faith even though you claim you do. Otherwise you would know where the desire to seek God comes from. :roll:

So no, God is not playing a cruel joke. :roll: Contradictory comments like yours show that you haven't read the bible and are not listening to anything I say. So I have no desire to pursie this topic with you further. :roll: