Free will or no free will?

[Atonement]

Will someone please explain how doing something that one does not want to do is a choice.

Are you talking about being stood up at gun point and someone asking us for something we don't want to give up i.e. wallet, purse, car keys or possibly being raped etc? Or are you talking about making a decision but by better judgment they did not want to make that choice? There is a huge difference in being forced to do something and not being forced. Before you get a valid response I think you should answer this first..

 

[Heidi]

Are you talking about being stood up at gun point and someone asking us for something we don't want to give up i.e. wallet, purse, car keys or possibly being raped etc? Or are you talking about making a decision but by better judgment they did not want to make that choice? There is a huge difference in being forced to do something and not being forced. Before you get a valid response I think you should answer this first..

And what person without the Spirit can do anything but respond from a sinful heart? No one, as Romans 8:5-8 tells us. So no, the man without the Spirit cannot do what God wants in the above circumstance or any circumstance as 1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us. Man, it's mind-boggling how many people here don't believe the bible. :roll:

Do you know what Peter means by; "A man is a slave to whatever has mastered him"? Or not? If you do, then you need to explain it before you can know the correct answer to your question. :roll:

 

[Heidi]

Listen here, you're getting pretty close to getting kicked off here. This is the third time tonight you are saying I and others don't believe in the Bible. You have NO RIGHT to tell anyone they don't believe in the Bible. I asked you a simple question and you can't give me a straight answer.. Therefore your question deserves no answer.. Get some sleep and come back to post when you are level headed, because right now you are walking a very thin wall, and one loose brick and you're going to fall off..

Since you claim to believe the bible, then you do believe that the man without the Spirit cannot choose or understand God. You also believe that Paul didn't choose to do evil because he says he didn't want to do the evil that he would do but instead couldn't helpt himself because of his sinful nature. If so, that answers your questions and this whole debate has been a waste of time. My point that we do not choose to sin has therefore been proven over and over again and you are now admitting that you agree with it. It only took endless personal attacks against me and pointless arguing.

So since you claim that everyone here believes the bible, then I have no more desire to be treated in the rude manner that I have been treated by people here who actually agreed with me the whole time, then tell me you're kicking me off. So I trust there will be no more contradictions in yours and other posts since you claim everyone here believes the bible. I'm tired of the personal attacks and endless criticism of me for believing every word in the bible. There's no excuse for it. This debate is therefore over because it's all been senseless quibbling by those who have actually agreed with Paul the whole time. That has caused much dissention on this board.

 

[dancing queen]

I think people can believe the bible and still get to a different interpretation. If we all read and understood it all in the same way there would be no need for study groups.

You may not agree with someone else interpretation, often with good cause, but surely its no ones failing to arrive at the 'wrong' interpretation. I have a different past to you, obviously, and therefore I read verses differently to you. Maybe I am wrong sometimes when I interpret, and I do seek out the truth, but life experiences are bound to have an impact.

Obviously there are different extremes of interpretation. For example, the story where Jesus sends the demons from the possessed man into the pigs. I believe it is written just as it happened. But our preacher on Sunday said he believed that the pigs got scared because of the noise the man was making and when they ran off the cliff Jesus just said the demons had gone into the pigs to make a point. Obviously this seems a very obviously wrong interpretation to me, but I guess not to the preacher.

All I am trying to say is, even when you post scripture sometimes I can't see the meaning you do, and I do try to. So maybe the differences expressed in these threads aren't always down to the lack of belief that assume.

 

[Heidi]

I think people can believe the bible and still get to a different interpretation. If we all read and understood it all in the same way there would be no need for study groups.

You may not agree with someone else interpretation, often with good cause, but surely its no ones failing to arrive at the 'wrong' interpretation. I have a different past to you, obviously, and therefore I read verses differently to you. Maybe I am wrong sometimes when I interpret, and I do seek out the truth, but life experiences are bound to have an impact.

Obviously there are different extremes of interpretation. For example, the story where Jesus sends the demons from the possessed man into the pigs. I believe it is written just as it happened. But our preacher on Sunday said he believed that the pigs got scared because of the noise the man was making and when they ran off the cliff Jesus just said the demons had gone into the pigs to make a point. Obviously this seems a very obviously wrong interpretation to me, but I guess not to the preacher.

All I am trying to say is, even when you post scripture sometimes I can't see the meaning you do, and I do try to. So maybe the differences expressed in these threads aren't always down to the lack of belief that assume.

No because interpretations come when people don't believe the bible. Paul's words are easy enough for a child to understand. ""For I have the desire to do what is good but cannot carry it out." There is no area for misunderstanding unless someone doesn't like that phrase and wants to change it. And that's why there is so much division among Christians. They change simple everyday words and begin to personally attack those who know and understand simple everyday words. Again, there's no excuse for it.

Paul no more chose to sin than he asked Jesus to come into his life. As Jesus said, "I chose you." Nor did Paul make a decision to believe any more than a blind man makes a decision to see once someone has helaed him of blindness. So claiming that we choose to believe and choose to sin is not scriptural anywhere. It's the power of the Holy Spirit that changess hearts, minds, sight, and lives.

So I'll leave others to keep quarreling over simple, everyday words just like when Clinton wanted to redefine "is" to try to fool the public. That's when it really does become senseless quarreling. So the bible has proven my point. One cannot claim to believe the bible yet not understand the simple everyday words in the passages I quoted. I am therefore bowing out of this senseless quarreling of which I have been incessantly personally attacked. I'm tired of it.

 

[golfjack]

reply

Heidi, When Paul uses the word I and the word it in the verses you quoted, what does he mean by I, and what does he mean by it? Your answer are found in these 2 words.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Drew]

So maybe the differences expressed in these threads aren't always down to the lack of belief that assume.

I believe that you are right, dq.

I think it is abundantly clear that understanding the Scriptures properly is not as simple as Heidi represents it. One needs to understand the culture of the times as well as other things. For example, I will assert that how one interprets the difficult book of Romans depends largely on whether you understand Paul as a "Jew writing Jewishly" or as a "Greek writing as a Greek".

It is a convenient myth to assume that we simply need to read the words as 21st century westerners and not consider the cultural context from which the Scriptures spring as well as a myriad of other variables.

So interpreting the Scriptures properly is hard work. Is that such a tragedy? Humans are designed to seek, inquire, and understand. It is not in our nature to be satisifed with "spoon feeding".

 

[Heidi]

Re: reply

Heidi, When Paul uses the word I and the word it in the verses you quoted, what does he mean by I, and what does he mean by it? Your answer are found in these 2 words.



May God bless, Golfjack

Paul is talking about the desires of his heart to which he is a slave as he tells us in verse 25. Evil desires come from the sinful nature who is ruled by Satan and the desire to do good comes from the Holy Spirit, God which is precisely how God draws us. He gives us the desire to seek him. Paul explains that perfectly and so does the rest of the bible.

I hesitate to respond further because all I have seen so far are people who want to tattack me and twist my words. The answers are all in the bible. Our struggle is not against flesh and blood but the powers of darkness. That means that there are only 2 powers operating in the world; God and Satan. We are controlled by one or the other. Those born of God are now sons of God and belong to God. Those not born of God are servants of Satan. That's what the bible says so I trust that everone here will believe it.

 

[dancing queen]

Heidi,

In posts you have said that the belief/understanding of the bible comes from the Holy Spirit. Do you believe therefore, that a Christian who claims to believe the bible but has different theology to you, does not know the Holy Spirit? This isn't getting at you, I just hope to understand where you are coming from better.

 

[Heidi]

Heidi,

In posts you have said that the belief/understanding of the bible comes from the Holy Spirit. Do you believe therefore, that a Christian who claims to believe the bible but has different theology to you, does not know the Holy Spirit? This isn't getting at you, I just hope to understand where you are coming from better.

I believe that one can be born of God, yet not know the whole bible. If he is truly born of God, then when he sees new passages he will believe them. But as Jesus tells us, there will be many wolves in sheep's clothing who pretend to believe God. Those people won't be open to believing passages they have never seen before. They will stick to their old beliefs no matter how many new passages they find that tell them otherwise.

So remember, dancing Queen, those with different interpretations can't both be right because their interpretations contradict each other. One of them is right and the other is wrong. So who is the final authority? Every word that comes out of the mouth of God. So once again, people need to do is read and believe every word the bible and they will have the truth. I have to be at the church in half an hour and I'll take that time to see what the Holy Spirit is telling me about being further involved in these arguments. The comments about me here have been very hurtful and i don't know whether or not I want to endure them further. Bye.

 

[Heidi]

I believe that you are right, dq.

I think it is abundantly clear that understanding the Scriptures properly is not as simple as Heidi represents it. One needs to understand the culture of the times as well as other things. For example, I will assert that how one interprets the difficult book of Romans depends largely on whether you understand Paul as a "Jew writing Jewishly" or as a "Greek writing as a Greek".

It is a convenient myth to assume that we simply need to read the words as 21st century westerners and not consider the cultural context from which the Scriptures spring as well as a myriad of other variables.

So interpreting the Scriptures properly is hard work. Is that such a tragedy? Humans are designed to seek, inquire, and understand. It is not in our nature to be satisifed with "spoon feeding".

Human opinions are not the word of God. The word of God is outside of ourselves. So no, the notion that every interpretation is right is a secular belief. It's called "moral relativism." That's what atheists believe. Every interpretation cannot be right because they contradict other interpretations. So instead of talking about theology (that is a man-made word for human interpretations), all one needs is to believe the word of God. It's that simple.

 

[Drew]

So instead of talking about theology (that is a man-made word for human interpretations), all one needs is to believe the word of God. It's that simple.

I do not see how this position can possibly be correct. The Scriptures simply do not admit to "interpretation free" reading.

Consider a specific example: the meaning of the phrase "the righteousness of God" as used in Romans. Here is an extract from Romans 3:

But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction.

What does the "righteousness of God" really mean? Does it mean that the characteristics of God as a righteous being are "imputed" to us. Or is it not about us at all, but really about God's inherent righteousness as a keeper of his covenant with Israel?

This is a complex question. The obvious point being this: understanding what "the righteousness of God" really means is not as simple as understanding the statement "Dick and Jane went to the candy store".

It requires a deep knowledge of many things. It is a fantasy to think that we can simply read a text in isolation and expect the meaning to be immediately apparent.

In the end, it really is all about theology - discerning the overarching themes and stories of the Scriptures and using that understanding to disambiguate such phrases as "the righteousness of God". The action of the human mind is a necessary part of the process - it is part of the "hand that we are dealt" by God.

God has structured the universe in such a way that we really have no other choice - the human mind and its acts of intepretation are a necessary step in understanding the truths of Scripture.

 

[golfjack]

reply

I really don't know why we are really debating this issue of free will or not free will. Common sense tells that man, whether a believer or unbeliever has free moral agency, and with much scripture to back it up. But, we see, some have what I call pet doctrines, and will defend them, whether they are right or wrong. Kind of silly, HUh?

Let's look at 1 Cor. 9:27: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subject: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be castaway.

Paul called his body it. Then who is the I that brought his body into subjection? It's the man on the inside that has become a new creature in Christ. Paul made a definite distinction between it, his body, and I, the real man on the inside. Paul wasn't saying he had to bring himself, the man on the inside, into subjection. No, he said the man on the inside had to bring his body into subjection.

Not obeying this scripture is one of the major areas where believers unknowingly give Satan access into their lives. Satan is given a foothold in people's lives when they allow their bodies or flesh to dominate them, instead of allowing their recreated spirits to rule and dominate their flesh. Does this sound like believers have no free will? I think not.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Heidi]

Heidi I give up, speaking with you is like trying to catch feathers in a hurricane. If one does not accept your theology then that person does not believe in the Bible. If someone does not interpret the Bible as you do then that person is not a Christian. You are a very argumentive person with the staff and our members, I will discuss your future with us in the Mod area. Until then I won't show you the kindness by answering your question. I'm the one that asked you a question and you fired back at me that I don't believe in the Bible, I'll show you the same courtesy with no response.

in Romans 7:13-25 (and the rest of the bible for that matter), that "I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law and in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin."

So no, that's not my theology or interpretation because I haven't changed one word. Thus the debate is over because there's no reason to argue.

 

[jgredline]

:robot: it is still looking at me....

 

[Heidi]

:robot: it is still looking at me....

: Haveyou seen the new Aflac commercials with the goat? It's a riot. : The duck in your profile reminded me of it. :wink:

 

[jgredline]

:robot:

 

[Heidi]

:robot:

: As the goat would say; "n-a-a-h."

 

[Vic C.]

The thread is now cleaned and unlocked. Please review all posts before posting to see if the tone reflects the Spirit.

Thanks.

 

[jgredline]

OK, Lets get this thread re-started...We can start by someone refuting this post and or sections of it...It is a repost of an earlier post in this thread...

As Vic said...and I have said a few different times...How does God get the ''most'' glory? By him imputing his saving grace on folks or by folks choosing him? By folks choosing him, will indeed give God more Glory...It is the Holy Spirit who ''wooooos'' people to himself and it is the Holy Spirit who gives people eyes to hear and ears to see.....If it is not a work of the HS then man on his own will not choose God...The scriptures are clear on this.....

So is God sovereign over all his creation? ''YES'' and NO.. oH oh Javier what is this madness your speaking now? .....Allow me to explain how this all works without the bible contradicting itself in the way full blown Calvinism does...As many of you know I do not believe that a Born Again Christian can loose his salvation...It ''can't happen'' The bible clearly teaches this...But if we have ''free will'' then we can loose it; right?...Let me explain...

But here is the thing....Once we become born again, we are NO LONGER OURS...We belong to Jesus...We are now one of his sheep...Jesus promised he will not loose a single one....God is completely sovereign in the life of the ''believer''....Once we are born again and are his, The Holy Spirit by whom we are sealed by will make sure we persevere to the very end....How can this happen....????Because ''the believer no longer has free will''....

But javier are you saying that you no longer sin?????...What I am saying is that ''my spirit'' no longer sins, but the flesh will continue to sin as I go through my sanctification process and ''IF'' i am truly born again the flesh will sin less and less as time passes...A person who is born again will not live in sin...A person who is born again will not plan to sin....Does this still happen??????

Yes, but there will be consequences to pay....I will make up an example...
''Suppose'' I where to plan to go to a strip club...What would happen?
On my way there, I would be convicted by the Holy Spirit....Suppose I ignored the HS and went...
1) I would get caught, by say a friend at church or my wife...
2) Nobody would ever know, but would feel guilt that would tear me up inside and make me sick...The waring that Paul speaks off in Romans 8...
3) I would walk away and say...Boy this was cool, I can't wait to come back...in which case, I would say that I was NOT born again...If there is no war, then there is no HS....it is that simple......

So a Believer does not have ''free will'' in a sense that a non believer does...
If the believer had no free will at all, then even the flesh would not sin....But who here can say that their flesh never sins???????

Let me give one more example and then I will get off my soap box...
This is for the believer....
Now that I belong to Jesus and I no longer have free will in the same way a pagan does, how does this work?.....
If it is Gods will for Javier to be a Pastor, Javier will be a pastor....
Let me explain...Lets say I was praying...God; What would you have me do for you???God tells me, I want u to be a pastor and take care of my sheep...
I say, no thnaks God, I want to go to school and be a doctor...God will say OK, But 8 years later I am struggling through school and can't pass the exams and so finally through much hard work and grief over the years I finally make it....Then I get to see my first patient....Hey it is my PASTOR...How cool....I get to take care of my pastor...BUT..I make a mistake and end up prescribing the wrong medication and ''kill my pastor''...
The next thing you know I get fired and 2 years later as I breezed through seminary, I am now a pastor... For the same church that I killed there pastor...Go figure....Had I listened to God, I would have saved me 10 years of grief....

One thing that is sad, is when non believers will pray for what ever it is in the hopes that God will answer their prayers and as we all know, God does not even hear them...They may as well pray to a tree...God is sovereign over all his creation in that if he pulled his common Grace, then literally all hell will break loose...and you know what folks..This day is coming...

Comments welcome...I have had this in my head since this debate satrted, but nobody took the bait...Really we never even got though round 1...

Very good Javier.

But here is the thing....Once we become born again, we are NO LONGER OURS...We belong to Jesus...We are now one of his sheep...Jesus promised he will not loose a single one....God is completely sovereign in the life of the ''believer''....Once we are born again and are his, The Holy Spirit by whom we are sealed by will make sure we persevere to the very end....How can this happen....????Because ''the believer no longer has free will''....

Let me add a little historical aspect to this:

A shepherd would go to great lengths to keep any of his sheep from getting lost.; even if it meant finding the stray sheep, break its leg so it can't wander and carry it if he must.

Think about that when reading Matthew 18:11-14.

Also consider this:

Matthew 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
Matthew 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Jesus appears to even be condoning saving the stray sheep on a Sabbath! Wow! That's how important we are to Him!

Excellent description of God's Truth!!!!!!

I am in total agreement with you on everything you have stated.

To clarify my point on freewill is that all believers choose to walk in the spirit or to walk in the flesh, and just as an unbeliever can reject the calling of the Holy Spirit when the Holy Spirit reveals the spiritual truth to him, so, too, can a believer not follow the guidence of the Holy Spirit; thus grieving Him.

Also, if a believer rejects the call of God on his life, I believe that, just as you say, dire times will befall him, even to the point of being killed; however, if God's sovereignty is to be what it truly is, when God wants Samson to destroy the Philistines, it will be done if Solomon acts on his faith (walking in the spirit). Samson could have decided to be a complainer of being in his circumstances and just ended up being killed as he was bound with no strength, or he could have repented and gone to God in prayer and asked for strength.

As always, you and I have the unity of the Spirit and see things through the truth of God's Word, even though we live in this sinful flesh.

God bless you today,
Michael