Free will or no free will?

[unred typo]

Bubba wrote on Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:30 am:
Yes, I would make the argument that God does sovereignly decide who is destine to heaven and who are destined to distruction. Those who are destine to heaven God actively intervenes in their lives (Eph. 2:1-9, Ezek. 36:21-30), those who are not God passively leaves in their sin.

You know what? How about if God just passively leaves you in your ignorance of his way to heaven and doesn’t bother to try to make you understand the error of your ways. You can go through life pretending to be one of the elect and chosen and special hand picked pets of God until you stand before him and make that ridiculous claim. Maybe instead of “Well done, good and faithful servant,†you will hear him say, “Well, since I did all the work, then the reward is mine to enjoy. You can have what you yourself claimed to have put into our relationship….nothing.†I believe that story ends with ‘wailing and gnashing of teeth.’

Bubba wrote:
The greater understanding is that those who are of the promise are the true people of God, which includes Jews (though not all Jews, romans 2:28-29, 9:6) and Gentiles (Gal 6:16, 1 Peter 2:9). This is the covenant people of God

No, the covenant people are those who choose to trust and obey God.

Bubba wrote:
Besides the fact that no where in the Bible does it say that man has freewill (bound to Satan or bound to Christ, no other option), yet prior to Romans 9 we have Romans 8:29-31, where Paul has already begun the argument that God has the right to sovereignly choose the individual. Where "forknow" is intimate and personal in the Greek I have been told.

Jesus set the captives free. If you are still bound, maybe you should check the lock on those leg irons… I think you will find them powerless to hold you when you step out in faith.

Bubba wrote:
His covenant is all about who belongs to Him, would you not agree? Thus the implication, is those who do not belong to Him are vessels of wrath created for distruction, because God did not choose to make them part of the covenant, but left them in their sin and they would not have it any other way.
Bubba

You are the one who will not have it any other way except that warped view of salvation. Jesus said to repent of your sin, deny yourself and follow him, (which means do what he said to do, btw ) and you will have treasure in heaven. God chose to make the followers of Christ part of the covenant, both Jews and Gentiles. You determine if you are one of those by your own choices; either to be bound in your sin, or to exercise your God-given free will to repent and obey Christ.

 

[lovely]

I think this passage demonstrates God's will in matters of salvation, and also the Holy Spirit being given as our assurance of God's promise, His earnest, that we will receive an inheritance. The Lord bless all of you.


Ephesians 1

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
and gives thanks for spiritual blessings
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

 

[unred typo]

Good verses, Lovely. The problem with posting verses without explaining why you think they apply is that we all have read them and put our own spin on what they mean in regard to the topic being discussed. While those verses have much to say about God’s will, they don’t specifically mention our own free will and neither does the entire Bible. The reason for such omission is because the reader is assumed to believe that if a fair and omnipotent God asks of man to do something, that something should be within his power to do it.

You wouldn’t command a chained person to get up and escape his burning prison without unlocking his chains, would you? If you did, you would be considered insane. If you refused to unlock the chains while it was within your power to do so, you would be considered criminally insane and sadistic as well. This is why I am particularly incensed by this entire line of ‘reasoning’ referred to as Calvinism. You can gloss over the facts but they remain the rather blatant absurdity, obvious to all but the chosen few who are so self conceited that they think they alone are the objects of God’s unmerited favor. It is such an amazing paradox of insane reasoning that it is beyond a normal person’s ability to fathom unless they, too, are ‘blessed’ with the same insane notion that they, too, are so chosen and favored!

As for the inference that I’m sure Bubba will make of being ‘predestined’ to such ‘favor without merit,’ notice that the implied (and usually ignored ) condition of the praise of his glory is that a person be ‘in Christ.’

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom you also trusted, after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

We were predestined in eternity past the same way you might predestine your town’s high school graduates to inherit a scholarship to college funded by your estate long after you’re gone. The conditions of this are that the student attend your high school, so they are the chosen and predestined people yet it is also implied that they have studied enough to graduate, since the gift remains a gift to ‘whosoever’ graduates. It is a free gift predestined for whosoever will apply themselves to the conditions of it.

Those who are in the world are given the opportunity to apply themselves to receive the free gift of an entrance into heaven, paid for with the precious blood of Christ. It is freely given to whosoever graduates ‘in Christ.’ To be ‘in Christ’, we must repent of our sins and forsake them and walk in love. To graduate ‘in Christ’ we must persevere until the end. Not only has God offered this free gift, but he gives us the world’s best coach and tutor to encourage and train us. The Holy Spirit is available to all who choose to do his will. We may not get 100% on every test but we must continue to press on toward the mark of the high calling of Christ.

 

[Drew]

Hello Bubba:

It seems that you are arguing that being a member of the covenant is determined fully and sufficiently by God's sovereign choice and involves no element of human choice. Romans 4:5 states:

However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness

Although I will not make the case here, I will assert that to be in the covenant means, at least in part, to be justified and determined to be righteous. As the text above states, a man attains this state by trusting in God. On any "normal" reading of the word trust, there is an implication of free agency.

Of course, in Romans 4, Paul is referring to the establishment of the covenant between God and Abram in Genesis 15. In fact, in Genesis 15 we have:

He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the starsâ€â€if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be." Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

I think, for a variety of reasons that I will go into here, that in this text, God is really establishing that covenant membership is not determined by being part of national Israel, but rather by belief in God. So in Romans 4:5 the reference to a man "who does not work" is really a reference to man who does those works of the law that demaracate a person as a member of national Israel - the laws about food, the Sabbath, and circumcision. Despite widely held belief to the contrary, Paul is not using the example of Abraham to show people are justified by faith and not by "doing good things" (although such is indeed the case). He is still talking about the relationship between the Jews and the Gentiles. Remember Romans 3:29:

Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too

Paul is talking about who are members of the covenant and that, even from the time of Abraham, covenant membership was never about being ethnically Jewish, but was rather about believing in God. He uses Abraham to underscore that it was not Abraham's "ethnicity as a Jew" that made him a member of the covenant - it was his faith in God.

Obviously, if someone make the case that "believing in God" and "trusting in God" are fully pre-determined by God, then perhaps your (Bubba's) position can be sustained. But that would seem like a difficult task since it would involve utterly reversing the nominal sense of words like "trust" and "believe" which have deep implications of free agency - despite the absence of any explicit statements in the Scriptures about man having free will.

 

[Bubba]

Drew,
If one believes that Scripture tells us that man is totally depraved and will not seek God and if that person believes it, then they would understand that for one to believe and or have faith, a miraculous event must occur first, which is regeneration. As Scripture states in 1 Corinthians 2:14, " But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned".
Bubba
References to total depravity.
a. Genesis 6:5. And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
b. Genesis 8:21. And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
c. Job 15:14-16. What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight. How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity as water.
d. Psalm 14:1-3. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
e. Jeremiah 4:22. For my people is foolish, they have not know me; they are sottish children, and they have no understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
f. Jeremiah 13:23. Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to evil.
g. Jeremiah 17:9, 10. The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I, the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give to every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
h. John 3:3, 5. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.... Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
i. John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
j. John 12:37-39. But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: that the saying of Esaias (Isaiah) the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
k. Romans 1:28-32. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind to do those things that are not convenient; being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
l. Romans 3:9-19. What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles that they are all under sin; as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are all together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: their feet are swift to shed blood: destruction and misery are in their ways: and the way of peace they have not known: there is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
m. Romans 6:16-19. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey: whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to unrighteousness and to iniquity unto iniquity: even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
n. Romans 8:7, 8. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
o. Galatians 3:22. But the Scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
p. Ephesians 2:1, 5. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins.... Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved).
q. Colossians 2:13. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses.
r. Titus 3:3. For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.

 

[Bubba]

Unred typo,
I sense a bit of anger in your reponses. Life is to short, to allow something as superfluous as a forum like this, to get perturbed. If you do not agree with me and you would like for me to answer your different opinions, be nice.
Bubba

 

[Drew]

Hello Bubba:

It might be helpful if you were to explain exactly what you mean by the term "total depravity". One meaning that simply does not hold up to the evidence of life is this: Unregenerated man is incapable of doing any good - all that he does springs from evil motivations.

I claim that such a statement is pretty obviously false - unbelievers do indeed perform genuinely good acts at times. Let's talk about an unbeliever Fred who donates a kdney to someone. I think that this is clearly a "good" act. And to argue that Fred is really doing this for his own glorification or for some other selfish motive is, I think, to stretch credulity. Although this is not something I can really provide a logical argument for, I think we all know non-believers who have done good things and we "know in our hearts" that the motivation was selfless. Perhaps you will dispute this.

At a certain point, I think we need to recognize that "if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck", it is, in all likelihood, a duck". This is how I think about good works. If an unredeemed person does something that seems to be "good" and if there is no tangible evidence of nefarious motives, it seems a little suspicious to appeal to a doctrine of "total depravity" to try to make the case that this otherwise apparently good act springs from evil intents.

I fully admit to taking a rather "empirical" stance in respect to this issue - being inclined to believe that one should judge motive based on the content of actions.

 

[Bubba]

Drew,
Total Depravity does not mean that one is totally evil, but evil enough to never choose Jesus without first being made alive to that which is spiritual. God does have a common grace He metes out to mankind which enables us to be kind to one another, love our children, etc, but this is not a saving grace. I believe that at times God lifts or takes away this common grace and we readily are able to see mankind as he is without Gods influence. I also think that this common grace provides a milieu for christendom to live in relative peace with unbelievers. Reform people such as myself believe all good gifts come from God (James 1:17 and 1Corinthians. 4:7) and He alone should receive the glory for all things. Luther said that our best deeds are sullied with sin, thus apart from Christ, we truly can do nothing (John 15:5). Thankfully God does work through us (as well as the lost) for His purposes (Ephesians 2::10 and Romans 9:17).
Bubba

 

[Drew]

Drew,
Total Depravity does not mean that one is totally evil, but evil enough to never choose Jesus without first being made alive to that which is spiritual. God does have a common grace He metes out to mankind which enables us to be kind to one another, love our children, etc, but this is not a saving grace.

OK...its important that I know what you mean. I hope to post more later......

 

[unred typo]

Bubba wrote to Drew:

If one believes that Scripture tells us that man is totally depraved and will not seek God and if that person believes it, then they would understand that for one to believe and or have faith, a miraculous event must occur first, which is regeneration. As Scripture states in 1 Corinthians 2:14, " But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned".
Bubba

References to total depravity.

Oh yay. A list. I hope you don’t mind, Drew. I love these little bites of scripture. They’re like peanuts, you just can’t stop when you're on a roll. Actually, they’re more like those rice cake things, not too filling once you put them in your mouth. Used in context, they make a meal though.


a. Genesis 6:5. And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Your ‘imagination of the thoughts of your heart’ is where sin starts. The more you dwell on evil thoughts, the more enslaved you become to those wicked imaginations. Not every person is a slave to their imagination. During this period of history, almost every man was. These were exceptionally bad times. Terrible wicked times, full of evil and disgusting atrocities. What about the previous hundreds of years? Things had been getting progressively worse, they were not totally evil from the start. After the flood, things began to turn evil again when men began to follow their evil imaginations instead of God.


b. Genesis 8:21. And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Again, the imagination can entertain us with evil thoughts. When we are young, the imagination is easily turned to evil. Those evil ideas can become evil tendencies if we allow them to. We must train ourselves to reject those thoughts and use our imaginations for good purposes. God is not saying here that man is unable to control his thoughts but since they begin early in life, without restraint, they can quickly overwhelm a person. That’s why the Holy Spirit was poured out onto all flesh and his commands are written on our hearts. Even in the worst of depraved situations, God can speak to every person and guide us even when we have no righteous example to follow.


c. Job 15:14-16. What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight. How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity as water.

You’re quoting Eliphaz the Temanite. God said he was one of the two friends that had not spoken rightly about God. In fact, he was pretty angry about it. The word used in Job 42:7 is ‘wrath’ so I would be careful when you take those words into your mouth, Bubba.

d. Psalm 14:1-3. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Here you go. When did God look down and see there were none righteous? Oh, I remember…it was just before the flood. There were probably other times too but it’s hard to imagine a worse one. Why are you applying this to every person born, alive and dead? Remember our lesson on context? Who are these children of men? Not Noah, not Methuselah, not Enoch, and not Noah’s sons or their wives. They’re all following God and doing what God’s people do: obeying him to the best of their ability.


e. Jeremiah 4:22. For my people is foolish, they have not know me; they are sottish children, and they have no understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

Who are my people in this CONTEXT? Jeremiah’s people… those backsliding Israelites. Does that mean none of Jeremiah’s people are following God? Hardly. There were no doubt some who remembered the Lord and remained true to him… they were just hard to find and hiding out since usually those are the ones the backsliders hate the most.

f. Jeremiah 13:23. Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to evil.

Now we’re back to the imagination of our youth. You have to start early to train that puppy not to mess everywhere or you’ll be seeing spots, too. Those who are accustomed to doing evil are not going to do good without a major change from the inside on out.


g. Jeremiah 17:9, 10. The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I, the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give to every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

You may have two eyes but you’re not seeing both elements here. This is just a one sided view, Bubba. You left out verses 7-8:

Blessed is the man that trusts in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.
For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreads out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

Now doesn’t that give you a better picture of the actual condition of mankind? Some are wicked but some are faithful…and the nicest thing is we can change. We may not be able to do good when we are accustomed to doing nothing but evil, but when we choose to do good, a miracle occurs and God helps us turn from our wicked ways and do what pleases him.



h. John 3:3, 5. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.... Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Seeing and entering the kingdom of God is walking under those pearly gates and beholding that beautiful city. No, you don’t get there unless you are born again. Understanding about the kingdom is not that restricted from view. Even a little child can do it.


i. John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

And we know for a fact he did get lifted up on the cross, so why would you ignore the second part?

j. John 12:37-39. But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: that the saying of Esaias (Isaiah) the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

They were kept from the knowledge of who he was until after he rose from the dead. It was a fulfillment of prophesy and it also kept the crowds from making him the new king instead of the sacrifice for sin he came to be.


k. Romans 1:28-32. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind to do those things that are not convenient; being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Interesting. God had to give them over to a reprobate mind. I thought they were totally depraved to start with. And if we are all depraved, and none of us like to retain God in our knowledge, why aren’t we all homosexual and gay?



l. Romans 3:9-19. What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles that they are all under sin; as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are all together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: their feet are swift to shed blood: destruction and misery are in their ways: and the way of peace they have not known: there is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

What then? Are you no better to understandeth than this? We have before proved that this set of verses doesn’t refer to all humanity, but of a time of evil that was recorded and Paul is using to make the case that neither the Jew or the Gentile gets to claim they are better because of race, color, creed, national origin or brand of peanut butter they use. All have sinned at some point. And your point?


m. Romans 6:16-19. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey: whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to unrighteousness and to iniquity unto iniquity: even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Exactly what I’m trying to tell you. You can yield yourself unto God or sin and the choice is yours. You have to choose. We hate that, don’t we?


n. Romans 8:7, 8. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Another thing I’m trying to get you to see. You can reject the carnal mind… DBA the evil imagination of your youth, or you can choose to satisfy the lusts of your flesh at the cost of your soul. Pleasures of sin for a season or Pie in the Sky By and By. Most people want double desserts right now. Too bad you can’t have your cake and eat it too.


o. Galatians 3:22. But the Scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

What can I say? All have sinned. Not all are totally depraved and slaves to their evil imagination. Jesus has set the captives free, not some, not a few, but all the ones that were bound. It wasn’t a partial freeing of the slaves. Sorry if that makes you feel less special.


p. Ephesians 2:1, 5. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins.... Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved).

Is that Totally Dead… as in Faith without works is Dead? Here’s a good riddle for you:
Romans 7:9
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Why was Paul alive before the commandment came and when did he die?


q. Colossians 2:13. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses.

“Dead in your trespasses†doesn’t equal total depravity. It signifies a total inability to save yourself based on the perfection of your works, not a total inability to please God, seek God, turn from sin, repent, or follow Christ.


r. Titus 3:3. For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.

“Sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another“ doesn‘t equal Total Depravity either.

What no S? Looks like the bag is empty. I thought for sure we were shooting for A-Z in Total Depravity. Guess it’s not as total as we feared.

 

[unred typo]

Bubba wrote:
Unred typo, I sense a bit of anger in your reponses. Life is to short, to allow something as superfluous as a forum like this, to get perturbed. If you do not agree with me and you would like for me to answer your different opinions, be nice.
Bubba

I am being nice, I’m not angry, nor am I perturbed. Well, perhaps a bit angry at the whole spectrum of idiocy that purports such evil negligence to God. You are the one who is refusing to answer unless the medicine is sugar coated. I don’t care if you answer my posts. That would be your prerogative to leave my responses to your errors unanswered.

I see while I was out writing to your list, you backed away from the term, Total Depravity. It is a bit much to swallow, isn’t it? Why don’t you change it to a more accurate description? Just hate to give up the tulip? Semi-total-mostly-depraved doesn‘t have as nice a ring to it?

 

[Bubba]

Unred typo,
No it is not a matter of having to have questions "sugar coated", but common courtesy. In regards to the topic of "Total Depravity", on one I know that adheres to this concept would ever say that man is absolute evil, but they and I would say that any good we do possess comes from God and absolutely anything we are able to accomplish, the motive always has sin involved. The problem as I see it is that those like yourself, must have something to do with their salvation and can not imagine God having sovereignty in this area. I believe Scripture is very clear in this, obviously you do not. The older I get, the more honest I have become in my struggle with the flesh, though I no longer deal with the major problems of my youth, I have become acutely aware of sins I once never considered. So, I agree whole heartily with Paul in Romans 7:15-24 and his honesty. I also agree with the solution that in Christ there is no condemnation. Hopefully, you at least agree with the Arminian position that God has to bring a person to a point of decision.
Bubba

 

[lovely]

Good verses, Lovely. The problem with posting verses without explaining why you think they apply is that we all have read them and put our own spin on what they mean in regard to the topic being discussed. While those verses have much to say about God’s will, they don’t specifically mention our own free will and neither does the entire Bible. The reason for such omission is because the reader is assumed to believe that if a fair and omnipotent God asks of man to do something, that something should be within his power to do it.

Unred, I lost my first post from this afternoon somehow. Let me try again. I mentioned these verses to demonstrate God's will in matters of our salvation. I agree that God gives us the power to do it, but in my mind that is the ONLY way we do it. That power to me, however is the Holy Spirit.

You wouldn’t command a chained person to get up and escape his burning prison without unlocking his chains, would you? If you did, you would be considered insane. If you refused to unlock the chains while it was within your power to do so, you would be considered criminally insane and sadistic as well. This is why I am particularly incensed by this entire line of ‘reasoning’ referred to as Calvinism. You can gloss over the facts but they remain the rather blatant absurdity, obvious to all but the chosen few who are so self conceited that they think they alone are the objects of God’s unmerited favor. It is such an amazing paradox of insane reasoning that it is beyond a normal person’s ability to fathom unless they, too, are ‘blessed’ with the same insane notion that they, too, are so chosen and favored!

I do not believe that one who confesses Christ in a genuine manner, with a repentant heart, would ever consider that they are somehow the only object of God's grace, or unmerited favor. That would be every believer past, present, and future. As far as conceit, I doubt that is the motivation of those who see themselves as underserving of the Father's love, and of His Son's sacrifice, but chosen anyway. I think you just dislike the idea of man's total depravity, and God's complete sovereignty. I know that you do not like Calvinism, and as I said to you before I have no interest in defending it, but I do believe that Scripture says that we are chosen according to God's will.

As for the inference that I’m sure Bubba will make of being ‘predestined’ to such ‘favor without merit,’ notice that the implied (and usually ignored ) condition of the praise of his glory is that a person be ‘in Christ.’

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom you also trusted, after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

We were predestined in eternity past the same way you might predestine your town’s high school graduates to inherit a scholarship to college funded by your estate long after you’re gone. The conditions of this are that the student attend your high school, so they are the chosen and predestined people yet it is also implied that they have studied enough to graduate, since the gift remains a gift to ‘whosoever’ graduates. It is a free gift predestined for whosoever will apply themselves to the conditions of it.

At first I thought I agreed with this some, if I could switch it around...scholarship free (Holy Spirit...grace), then we meet the condition of belief once we are free to see God, and obey Him, and then equips us, educates us, disciplines us, etc. so that we may graduate. I don't really care for analogies, though. It is by grace we are saved through faith, and not of ourselves. This is what Scripture teaches. I believe that James shows us how faith is active...that God expects obedience and good works, but none of this comes before the Spirit of God in us.

Those who are in the world are given the opportunity to apply themselves to receive the free gift of an entrance into heaven, paid for with the precious blood of Christ. It is freely given to whosoever graduates ‘in Christ.’ To be ‘in Christ’, we must repent of our sins and forsake them and walk in love. To graduate ‘in Christ’ we must persevere until the end. Not only has God offered this free gift, but he gives us the world’s best coach and tutor to encourage and train us. The Holy Spirit is available to all who choose to do his will. We may not get 100% on every test but we must continue to press on toward the mark of the high calling of Christ

.

The overcomers are God's elect, the chosen. They choose Him for this very reason. They overcome because they have ears to hear, and they hear God's warnings, and they obey Him with heart obedience through the Holy Spirit. The overcomers are those who walk in repentance, who remain in Christ, who love God with all, practice charity, who forgive and do good works, and all of this is powered through God. None of this can be done apart from the Holy Spirit, who is our seal, our assurance that God will allow us to inherit eternal life.

I don't see any of your interpretations in the Word of God, really. Maybe, I am misunderstanding you somehow, but it always seems like you are saying that we do things apart from the Holy Spirit...but I don't want to confuse you with other. Are you saying this?

Anyway, I will check in tomorrow. The Lord bless you.

 

[unred typo]

Bubba wrote on Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:28 pm
Unred typo, No it is not a matter of having to have questions "sugar coated", but common courtesy.

I suppose I could try to veil the painfully obvious with polite innuendos from now on but that won’t be easy since I do prefer to say what I have to say plainly so there is no mistaking what I mean. This is fairly important with people who say inane things like ‘all’ doesn’t mean ‘all’, ‘whosoever’ must be qualified as ‘whosoever God chose,’ and that ‘God calls all men everywhere to repent even though he knows most are dead, unable to see or hear the message nor are they able to respond.’ Say what?

Isn’t it a bit rude to claim that God passively allows some people to go to hell without saving them when it is within his power to save them while unjustly saving others who don‘t deserve salvation any more than those he chooses to fry mercilessly for eternity? I wish I could make you aware of how dangerously close to blasphemy such a position really is. If eating crow would open your eyes, I would choke it down raw, feathers and all. A slap in the face seems to be more effective though. That’s what got my attention.

Bubba wrote:
In regards to the topic of "Total Depravity", on one (I guess you mean ‘no one’ ) I know that adheres to this concept would ever say that man is absolute evil, but they and I would say that any good we do possess comes from God and absolutely anything we are able to accomplish, the motive always has sin involved.

Then why don’t you say what you mean? Why add an inaccurate label that adds confusion to the issue? Are you just trying to straddle the fence and keep 5-point Calvinists thinking you agree? As for your concept, I still don’t believe it. You must be sincerely disingenuous if not one thing you do in your entire worthless human fleshly existence is not tainted by sinful motives. Even I would not think such evil of you, Bubba. Tell me that you would not willingly give your own life for your mother or brother or spouse or child. And if you did so, what possible sin would taint such an act of selfless love?

While I can agree all good has originated with God, (who IS love, btw ) whenever we do something out of real sacrificial love, we are doing it ‘in God’ or ‘in/or through Christ.’ He is not doing it ‘through us.’

Bubba wrote:
The problem as I see it is that those like yourself, must have something to do with their salvation and can not imagine God having sovereignty in this area. I believe Scripture is very clear in this, obviously you do not.

I sincerely hope it is obvious that I do not agree, although you have misrepresented my view. I do understand God’s sovereignty in salvation. He has sovereignly decreed that the blood of Christ will freely cover the sins of those who repent and follow his Son. I have no problem seeing what kind of sovereignty you are suggesting and I also see the problem such a view causes with to the rest of the gospel message. Following Christ becomes a favor you do for God since he has already obligated himself to save you.

Bubba wrote:
The older I get, the more honest I have become in my struggle with the flesh, though I no longer deal with the major problems of my youth, I have become acutely aware of sins I once never considered. So, I agree whole heartily with Paul in Romans 7:15-24 and his honesty. I also agree with the solution that in Christ there is no condemnation. Hopefully, you at least agree with the Arminian position that God has to bring a person to a point of decision.
Bubba

Sorry but no, the Armenian position doesn’t thrill me either. God calls all men everywhere to repent and if you know what’s good for you, you do. If you repent, and mean it, he will help you overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil in your life. He is all about teaching us and training us and then testing us for heaven. Some excel, some pass and some scrape by and some reject the whole business. Go figure.

 

[Bubba]

Unred typo,
From the little I know from your writings, it appears you do not believe it is necessary for the Holy Spirit to bring to life your dead spirit (soul). Your spirit is dead to Christ (though you are physically alive) because the God of this world has blinded you (2Corinthians 4:3-6), yet you claim you are not really dead (just a little dead) and not really blind (just a little blind)and can respond without being made alive by God spiritually inspite of what 1Corinthians 2:13-14 states. It reads very Palagian to me.
Bubba

 

[unred typo]

lovely wrote on Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:27 pm
I mentioned these verses to demonstrate God's will in matters of our salvation. I agree that God gives us the power to do it, but in my mind that is the ONLY way we do it. That power to me, however is the Holy Spirit.

Lovely, if a merciful, just, fair and omnipotent God asks of man to do something to earn eternal life, that something must be within man’s own power to do it. Otherwise, God is being unmerciful, unjust, unfair, and tyrannical. If you don’t see that, there is no way on God’s green earth to explain it to you. You have ignored, rejected or perverted the basic understanding of what justice and mercy is in order to magnify the sovereign omnipotent power of God.

By interjecting God’s sovereignty over man’s will, you have effectively removed the will of man and left him a puppet on God’s hand. Why are you doing this? Do you think God is so insecure that he refuses to give up any of his irresistible power in order to create man with autonomy of his own? Do you live in opposite world? Look around you. Does it appear that God is in total control? Or does it seem more like the inmates have taken over the asylum? Obviously the latter is true. God is not concerned with grasping the power over man’s will. He freely allows us the power to decide our own fates by the choices we make.

By now, you are probably busting with the need to scream that God does demand of us what we cannot deliver. He did say “be you perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect,†didn’t he. But as I said, he has not asked man to do that which is impossible. When we love one another and follow the way of eternal life outlined for us by his son, the blood of Christ cleanses us from all unrighteousness. Voila! Perfection. Attainable perfection.

Does God give us power to do his will? Absolutely, but he does not inject us with the will to do this. Doesn’t it say that it is the Spirit that gives us “to will and to do of his good pleasure� Yes, but that is not injected into us like oil into a butterball. The Spirit is always influencing us from outside of our own wills, (unless in a special rare instance where man’s will is temporarily exempted for a period of time to accomplish a purpose. ) You can be filled with the Spirit but you must initiate such a takeover and there is always the exit button when you can resume control of your own reins, to your own peril, usually. Jesus is the door of the sheep. We go in and out and find pasture.

 

[Vic C.]

Unred... a few months ago, Pastor and I were discussing freedom of choice vs. God's sovereignty. I sort of already came to this conclusion, but before I expressed it, he said there was danger in leaning too far one way or another. He suggested there is a balance that exists, one hard to explain, but isn't that usually the case when trying to describe the nature of God in human "terms"?

Anyways, you have pointed out, as I have in the past, this may be what Calvinism does; overemphasize God's sovereignty. I have stated in the past that just because God can do something, does HE always? Is HE bound to always exert His sovereignty over Man and creation?

but... you are in danger too of overemphasizing man's will. Bottom line for me is; man's "will" cannot and never will be able to supersede God's will or overall plan for Man and His Creation. That for me is the sovereignty of God. We may have in our "power" to accept or reject. but it is HE that calls first...always.

 

[unred typo]

Bubba wrote:
Unred typo, From the little I know from your writings, it appears you do not believe it is necessary for the Holy Spirit to bring to life your dead spirit (soul). Your spirit is dead to Christ (though you are physically alive) because the God of this world has blinded you (2Corinthians 4:3-6), yet you claim you are not really dead (just a little dead) and not really blind (just a little blind)and can respond without being made alive by God spiritually inspite of what 1Corinthians 2:13-14 states. It reads very Palagian to me.
Bubba

No no, it’s much easier than that. Read all of 1 John, and not just the verses I have picked out. Don’t let me or anyone else tell you what it means. Here is how you come to hear the truth:

4:6 We are of God: he that knows God hears us; he that is not of God hears not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Here John claims that if the readers are of God, they will hear him/us (“us†includes the other disciples of God.) This is his claim to be giving out the truth of God. Ask God to reveal the truth, then use that God given common sense when you read and you shall receive. John talks about the causes, effects and cures of blindness, and deafness and life and death. It’s all good. It won’t matter which direction you read it. You have your cart before the horse so we’ll start with that. We’ll agree here:

Notice who has life:

1 John 5:11-12
And this is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life.

Who has not life? He that has not the Son of God has not life. Who actually has the Son of God though?

Look at 4:15, since this is the most common answer:

Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwells in him, and he in God.

We like this answer because as humans, we are basically lazy. There is more tied up with confessing that Jesus is the Son of God than merely saying you believe it. If you really do believe something as radical as this, it should effect your whole being, all your actions and thoughts, right down to your core beliefs. You should understand the implications of believing this fact about Jesus. Read 16:

16And we have known and believed the love that God has to us. God is love; and he that dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him.

We want to believe this means we should bask in the love of God for us. No, he means that we since we know the love of God, we should live a life that gives out that same love to others. This becomes quite apparent as you read down to verse 20:

If a man say, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar: for he that loves not his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?
21And this commandment have we from him, That he who loves God love his brother also.

Chapter 3 has more to say on this:

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24And he that keeps his commandments dwells in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

And 3:17 had already put it in practical terms:

But whoso has this world's good, and sees his brother have need, and shuts up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwells the love of God in him?

So we know where he’s going with this. Go back to chapter 2 and see where this all started:

4He that says, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But whosoever keeps his word, in him truly is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

John says we should know this because God has been saying this all along:

2:7Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you have heard from the beginning.
8Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shines.
9He that says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10He that loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no occasion of stumbling in him.
11But he that hates his brother is in darkness, and walks in darkness, and knows not which way he goes, because that darkness has blinded his eyes.

There, friend, is the cause and cure of blindness. The darkness of hatred causes blindness, the light of love removes it. If you can’t see, it’s because you are walking in hate. Walk in love and you’ll be able to see.

Now we’re back to the beginning of 1 John:

1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin.

What did we learn? He that keeps the commands of Christ has the Son, and he that has the Son has life and he that walks in love for others is not blinded by the darkness of hate.

9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and his love is perfected in us.

From beginning to end, the message is the same:

4:7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loves is born of God, and knows God.
8He that loves not knows not God; for God is love.

Hey, I love ya, man…

 

[unred typo]

vic C. wrote on Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:18 pm
Unred... a few months ago, Pastor and I were discussing freedom of choice vs. God's sovereignty. I sort of already came to this conclusion, but before I expressed it, he said there was danger in leaning too far one way or another. He suggested there is a balance that exists, one hard to explain, but isn't that usually the case when trying to describe the nature of God in human "terms"?

Anyways, you have pointed out, as I have in the past, this may be what Calvinism does; overemphasize God's sovereignty. I have stated in the past that just because God can do something, does HE always? Is HE bound to always exert His sovereignty over Man and creation?

but... you are in danger too of overemphasizing man's will. Bottom line for me is; man's "will" cannot and never will be able to supersede God's will or overall plan for Man and His Creation. That for me is the sovereignty of God. We may have in our "power" to accept or reject. but it is HE that calls first...always.

This is something I have a problem understanding why we should even have to discuss. Obviously, you can’t answer the phone if it doesn’t first ring. Obviously, the plan of salvation originated with God. Obviously, without him there would be no love, no light, no life. But, he did call us. The call has gone out to the ends of the earth. Man is not unable to hear the call, he is unwilling to answer, so he drowns it out. The phone is ringing off the wall and the band plays on, Vic. He calls all men everywhere to repent.

I can agree with your “Bottom line for me†statement. Man's "will" cannot and never will be able to supersede God's will or overall plan for Man and His Creation. That is the sovereignty of God. The plain truth, however, is that God is allowing man a place and a space to repent and it is HIS will that all should come to repentance, of their own free will. If man’s will is free, as I believe God has ordained him to be when he created him in his own image, he isn’t going to force or trick man to believe against that will. The choice is ours.

He allows even a mountain of reasonable alternatives so that man indeed can have a viable choice. If you do not want to hear the call, he will allow you to occupy yourself with a lifestyle as noisy as it takes for you to ignore him. He continues to nag at our conscience until there is no longer a glimmer of hope that you will ever change your hell bent mind. Then you die, or you become some vessel fitted for destruction that he will use to show others the folly of your evil ways. He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. I believe that one of the reasons he hates them is because they force him to execute judgment upon them. Judgment is his dirty job that somebody has to do; his strange work that only he can do to perfection.

 

[MarkT]

d. Psalm 14:1-3. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Here you go. When did God look down and see there were none righteous? Oh, I remember…it was just before the flood. There were probably other times too but it’s hard to imagine a worse one. Why are you applying this to every person born, alive and dead? Remember our lesson on context? Who are these children of men? Not Noah, not Methuselah, not Enoch, and not Noah’s sons or their wives. They’re all following God and doing what God’s people do: obeying him to the best of their ability.

The prophets prophesized and Jesus fulfilled the prophecies. They didn't prophecy the past. They prophesied his coming. Psalms 14 describes the people at his coming. They were following false teachers and no one was doing good.

I'm not defending the total depravity thing either. Of course Mary, who was chosen by God, and the disciples, who were given to Jesus, and John, who was baptising with water, were not totally depraved. But that doesn't make you right.

No one can come to Jesus unless he is drawn by the Father. God does nothing in vain. His will is accomplished. If you are called, then it is for his purose; to accomplish his will. No one can resist his will. Even Judas, who was a devil, could not resist. Do you seriously think Jesus didn't know who Judas was even before Judas betrayed him? Do you think Jesus didn't know if Judas would follow him or what his role was even before he chose him? God chose Judas to betray his Son. Did God fail in his purpose? No. The idea that a man can resist God's will and his call is ridiculous. If God purposes something, it comes to pass. The idea that God can call you for his purpose and you can say 'no' and God fails in his purpose for calling you, even for raising you, and that you will not accomplish his will, is ridiculous. Everywhere you are at any moment is God's will.