Free will or no free will?

[MarkT]

d. Psalm 14:1-3. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Here you go. When did God look down and see there were none righteous? Oh, I remember…it was just before the flood. There were probably other times too but it’s hard to imagine a worse one. Why are you applying this to every person born, alive and dead? Remember our lesson on context? Who are these children of men? Not Noah, not Methuselah, not Enoch, and not Noah’s sons or their wives. They’re all following God and doing what God’s people do: obeying him to the best of their ability.

The prophets prophesized and Jesus fulfilled the prophecies. They didn't prophecy the past. They prophesied his coming. Psalms 14 describes the people at his coming. They were following false teachers and no one was doing good.

I'm not defending the total depravity thing either. Of course Mary, who was chosen by God, and the disciples, who were given to Jesus, and John, who was baptising with water, were not totally depraved. The evildoers in this Psalm were the Jews, the teachers of the law; the ones who had no knowledge and who did not seek after God. But that doesn't make you right.

No one can come to Jesus unless he is drawn by the Father. God does nothing in vain. His will is accomplished. If you are called, then it is for his purpose; to accomplish his will. No one can resist his will. Even Judas, who was a devil, could not resist. Do you seriously think Jesus didn't know who Judas was even before Judas betrayed him? Do you think Jesus didn't know if Judas would follow him or what his role was even before he chose him? God chose Judas to betray his Son. Did God fail in his purpose? No. The idea that a man can resist God's will and his call is ridiculous. If God purposes something, it comes to pass. The idea that God can call you for his purpose and that you can say 'no' so that God fails in his purpose for calling you, even for raising you, and that you will not accomplish his will, is ridiculous. Everywhere you are at any moment is God's will.

 

[Bubba]

THE MYTH OF FREE WILL

Walter Chantry







MOST PEOPLE say that they believe in “free will.†Do you have any idea what that means? I believe that you will find a great deal of superstition on this subject. The will is saluted as the grand power of the human soul which is completely free to direct our lives. But from what is it free? And what is its power?


THE MYTH OF CIRCUMSTANTIAL FREEDOM

No one denies that man has a will  that is, a faculty of choosing what he wishes to say, do, and think. But have you ever reflected on the pitiful weakness of your will? Though you have the ability to make a decision, you do not have the power to carry out your purpose. Will may devise a course of action, but will has no power to execute its intention.

Joseph’s brothers hated him. They sold him to be a slave. But God used their actions to make him a ruler over themselves. They chose their course of action to harm Joseph. But God in His power directed events for Joseph’s good. He said, “But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good†(Gen 50:20).

And how many of your decisions are miserably thwarted? You may choose to be a millionaire, but God’s providence is likely to prevent it. You may decide to be a scholar, but bad health, an unstable home, or lack of finances may frustrate your will. You choose to go on a vacation, but an automobile accident may send you to the hospital instead.

By saying that your will is free, we certainly do not mean that it determines the course of your life. You did not choose the sickness, sorrow, war, and poverty that have spoiled your happiness. You did not choose to have enemies. If man’s will is so potent, why not choose to live on and on? But you must die. The major factors which shape your life cannot thank your will. You did not select your social status, color, intelligence, etc.

Any sober reflection on your experience will produce the conclusion, “A man’s heart deviseth his way: but THE LORD DIRECTETH his steps†(Prov 16:9). Rather than extolling the human will, we ought to humbly praise the Lord whose purposes shape our lives. As Jeremiah confessed, “O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps†(Jer 10:23).

Yes, you may choose what you want, and you may plan what you will do; but your will is not free to accomplish anything contrary to the purposes of God. Neither have you any power to reach your goals but that which God allows you. The next time you are so enamored with your own will, remember Jesus’ parable about the rich man. The wealthy man said, “This I WILL do: I WILL pull down all my barns, and build greater: and there I WILL bestow all my fruits and my goods. . . But God said unto him. Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee†(Luke 12:18-21). He was free to plan but not free to accomplish; so it is with you.

THE MYTH OF ETHICAL FREEDOM

But freedom of the will is cited as an important factor in making MORAL decisions. Man’s will is said to be free to choose between good and evil. But again we must ask, from what is it free? And what is man’s will free to choose?

The will of man is his power to choose between alternatives. Your will does decide your actions from a number of options. You have the faculty to direct your own thoughts, words, and deeds. Your decisions are not formed by an outside force, but from within yourself. No man is compelled to act contrary to his will, nor forced to say what he does not wish. Your will guides your actions.

Yet this does not mean that the power to decide is free from all influence. You make choices based on your understanding, your feelings, your likes and dislikes, and your appetites. In other words, your will is not free from yourself! Your choices are determined by your own basic character. The will is not independent of your nature, but the slave of it. Your choices do not shape your character, but your character guides your choices. The will is quite partial to what you know, feel, love, and desire. You always choose on the basis of your disposition. according to the condition of your heart.

It is just for this reason that your will is NOT free to do good. Your will is the servant of your heart, and your heart is evil. “And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that EVERY imagination of the thoughts of his heart was ONLY evil CONTINUALLY†(Gen 6:5). “There is NONE that doeth good, no, not one†(Rom 3:12). No power forces man to sin contrary to his will, but the descendants of Adam are so evil that they always choose the evil.

Your decisions are molded by your understanding, and the Bible says of all men, “And their foolish heart was darkened†(Rom 1:21). Man can only be righteous when he desires to have fellowship with God, but, “There is NONE that seeketh after God†(Rom 3:11). Your appetites crave sin, and thus you cannot choose God. To choose good is contrary to human nature. If you chose to obey God, it would be the result of external compulsion. But you are free to choose and hence your choice is enslaved to your own evil nature.

If fresh meat and tossed salad were placed before a hungry lion, he would choose the flesh This is because his nature dictates the selection. It is just so with man. The will of man is free from outside force, but not from the bias of human nature. That bias is against God. Man’s power of decision are free to choose whatever the human heart dictates; therefore there is no possibility of a man choosing to please God without prior work of divine grace.

What most people mean by free will is the idea that man is by nature neutral and therefore able to choose either good or evil. This simply is not true. The human will and the whole of human nature is bent to ONLY evil CONTINUALLY Jeremiah asked, “Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots’? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil†(Jer 13:23). It is impossible. It is contrary to nature Thus do men desperately need the supernatural transformation of their natures, else their wills are enslaved to choosing evil.

In spite of the great praise that is given to “free will,†we have seen that man’s will is not free to choose a course contrary to God’s purposes nor free to act contrary to his own moral nature. Your will does not determine the events of your life nor the circumstances of it. Ethical choices are not formed by a neutral mind but always dictated by your personality makeup.

THE MYTH OF SPIRITUAL FREEDOM

Nevertheless many assert that the human will makes the ultimate choice of spiritual life or spiritual death. They say that here the will is altogether free to choose eternal life offered in Jesus Christ or to reject it. It is said that God will give a new heart to all who choose by the power of their own free will to receive Jesus Christ.

There can be no question that receiving Jesus Christ is an act of the human will. It is often called “faith.†But how do men come to willingly receive the Lord? It is usually answered, “Out of the power of their own free will.†But how can that be? Jesus is a PROPHET  to receive Him means to believe all that He says. In John 8:41-45 Jesus made it clear that you were born of Satan. This evil father hates the truth and imparted the same bias into your heart by nature. Hence said Jesus, “Because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.†How does the human will jump out of man to choose to believe what the human mind hates and denies?

Further, to receive Jesus means to embrace him as a PRIEST  that is, to employ and depend on him to sue out peace with God by sacrifice and intercession. Paul tells us that the mind with which we were born is hostile to God (Rom 8:7). How can the will escape the influence of human nature which was born with a violent enmity to God? It would be insane for the will to choose peace when every bone and drop of blood cries out for rebellion.

Then too, receiving Jesus means to welcome Him as a KING. It means choosing to obey His every command, to confess His right of rule and to worship before His throne. But the human mind, emotions, and desires all cry out, “We will not have this man to reign over us†(Luke 19:14). If my whole being hates His truth, hates His rule and hates peace with God, how can my will be responsible for receiving Jesus? How can such a sinner have faith?

It is not man’s will but God’s GRACE that must be thanked for giving a sinner a new heart. Unless God changes the heart, creates a new spirit of peace, truthfulness, and submission. man will not choose to receive Jesus Christ and eternal life in Him. A new heart must he given before a man can believe, or else the human will is hopelessly enslaved to evil human nature even in the matter of conversion. Jesus said. “Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye MUST be born again†(John 3:7). Unless you are, you will never see His kingdom.

Read John 1:12 & 13. It says that those who believe on Jesus have been “born, not of the will of man, but of God.†As your will is not responsible for your coming into this world, it is not responsible for the new birth. It is your Creator who must be thanked for your life, and if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation (II Cor 5:17). Who ever chose to be created? When Lazarus rose from the dead, he then could choose to answer the call of Christ, but he could not choose to come to life. So Paul said in Ephesians 2:5, “Even when we were dead in sins, [God] hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved).†Faith is the first act of a will made new by the Holy Spirit. Receiving Christ is an act of man just as breathing is, but God must first give life.

No wonder Martin Luther wrote a book entitled The Bondage of the Will which he considered one of his most important treatises. The will is in the chains of an evil human nature. You who extol the free will as a great force are clinging to a root of pride. Man, as fallen in sin, is utterly helpless and hopeless. The will of man offers no hope. It was the will choosing the forbidden fruit that brought us into misery. The powerful grace of God alone offers deliverance. Cast yourself upon God’s mercy for salvation. Ask for the Spirit of Grace that He may create a new spirit within you.


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[wingnut]

When planning and creating the universe there can only be 2 options on how it would go:

1) The notion that some people were simply born smarter, more pure and intelligent to choose God and the rest were just too stupid and wicked not to.

or: 2) We are all in the same boat, none better than another and only God chooses who will come to him and gives us the pwoer to do his will.

The second option is the only equitable system because it:

Hi Heidi

Does this scenario fit into your "second option" or is this a third option.

God creates many more free-will-agents than He thinks he might ever need or want. He creates them mortal (subject to pulls of the flesh) and tells them to choose Him, of their own free will.

Those who do choose Him (on an ongoing basis for the rest of their lives - not just a one off altar call), he gives a spiritual body. They have already in their mortal lives, built good free-will-choosing ability, by resisting sin and choosing Him. This is like spiritual weight-training, the more you do it, the better you get at it. By then transforming them at death into spirit beings not subject to lusts of the flesh, God further enhances and enables their resolve to make right choices. He never removes their free will.

However, those mortals who come to know God, see His benefits, acknowledge that He made them - yet reject Him, He rejects, and simply burns them up.

Thus, in this option, there will be a kind of "survival of the fittest".

 

[Drew]

By saying that your will is free, we certainly do not mean that it determines the course of your life. You did not choose the sickness, sorrow, war, and poverty that have spoiled your happiness. You did not choose to have enemies. If man’s will is so potent, why not choose to live on and on? But you must die. The major factors which shape your life cannot thank your will. You did not select your social status, color, intelligence, etc.

I find the nature of the above to be representative of the "MYTH OF CIRCUMSTANTIAL FREEDOM" section of Bubba's post. My counter is this: I entirely agree that human free will is highly constrained, more highly constrained than most of us would want to admit. However, the argument in the "MYTH OF CIRCUMSTANTIAL FREEDOM" only establishes that human is greatly constrained - there is nothing to make us believe it is entirely absent. I just want to make that important distinction. And I not intend to imply that Bubba, in particular, does not believe in the existence of limited human free will. I suspect that he does not, but I am not sure.

 

[Drew]

I also find the "THE MYTH OF ETHICAL FREEDOM" section of Mr. Chantry's material post to be quite unconvincing.

Consider the following extract:

Yet this does not mean that the power to decide is free from all influence. You make choices based on your understanding, your feelings, your likes and dislikes, and your appetites. In other words, your will is not free from yourself! Your choices are determined by your own basic character. The will is not independent of your nature, but the slave of it. Your choices do not shape your character, but your character guides your choices. The will is quite partial to what you know, feel, love, and desire. You always choose on the basis of your disposition. according to the condition of your heart.

One part (and admittedly only one part) of the argument seems to be "your character determines your choices". Fair enough, buth there is a rather large logical defect here - the implicit assumption that one's character in turn is not determined by prior free will choices. I know that the writer of the material that I am responding to will argue that certain scriptures show that the character of the unredeemed person is such that their "choices" will always be evil. I will argue against such a reading of the scriptures in question, and agree, interestingly enough, with Bubba himself who has asserted as follows:

God does have a common grace He metes out to mankind which enables us to be kind to one another, love our children, etc,

Such a statement certainly seems to contradict what is said by Mr. Chantry when he writes as follows:

It is just for this reason that your will is NOT free to do good. Your will is the servant of your heart, and your heart is evil.

In any event, Mr. Chantry's argument is vulnerable to the counterargument that free will choices do indeed have some determining role in character development. And such character, we would all probably agree, determines our actions. But if character itself can be formed through free will actions, then what Mr. Chantry says about character determining actions can be reconciled with a free will position.

In my next post, I will respond the scriptures Mr. Chantry deploys in support of his position on the matter of "ethical freedom". The purpose of the present post was to show that, independent of matters of Scripture, the "character (and not free will) determines what you do" argument fails to account for the possibility that free will actions play a determining role in respect to character. I will address the scriptures in my next post.

 

[Drew]

THE MYTH OF FREE WILL

Walter Chantry
THE MYTH OF ETHICAL FREEDOM
...
Your will is the servant of your heart, and your heart is evil. “And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that EVERY imagination of the thoughts of his heart was ONLY evil CONTINUALLY†(Gen 6:5).

I will respond to Genesis 6:5 by appealing to the reader to perform an honest assessment of whether your life experience does not reveal that unregenerate people do sometimes perform genuinely good acts. I think it is clear that they do and this manifest fact about reality should lead us to be careful in taking a text like Genesis 6:5 too literally. I think it is entirely feasible to assert that the writer is engaging in a little poetic exaggeration when he claims that men's thoughts were evil continually. If you want to object that it is never the case that scripture employs literary device and is always literally true as written, go ahead and try to make that case. I think such a project is doomed, however. Think back to your own pre-conversion state - was every thought of yours evil, did you have no thoughts that were good?

Now one might try to counterargue that even though some of my unregenerate acts seemed to me to spring from good intentions, the Genesis 6:5 text implies that all my intentions were really bad. This is a possibility, of course, but I am highly suspicious of the claim that unregenerate people never do anything out of good motives. Such a view is, I would claim, at rather clear odds with the evidence of life. And I cannot argue evidence of this type in this forum - I can only appeal to self-reflection on all our parts.

“There is NONE that seeketh after God†(Rom 3:11)

“There is NONE that doeth good, no, not one†(Rom 3:12).

As I have argued in other contexts, I think we need to reflect on who Paul was writing to when he penned Romans and what his real purposes were. I think that a very strong case can be made that, in Romans 3:11-12 Paul is not making a generally theological declaration about the universality of sin and the impossibility of the unregenerate person doing good: Instead, he is expressing the idea that both Jew and Gentile alike in the church at Rome are children of Adam and share in his nature. Remember the first part of the first verse of Romans 3:

"What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew?"

I think the proper interpretation of these verses (Romans 3:11-12) is basically this:

"The Jew and the Gentile have equal status - neither is more inclined than the other to seek God and neither is better than the other".

I assert that Paul is focussing on this "equality" of the Jew and Gentile in respect to their both being generally sinful and generally inclined not to seek after God. If there were reasons to think that Paul was expounding a systematic theology, then perhaps Mr. Chantry's argument in respect to these verses can be sustained. But I think this is rather clearly not the case - Paul wrote Romans in order to encourage the Gentiles and the Jews to get along in the fractured church at Rome. Along the way, of course, we learn things about what Paul thinks about humanity. But if we lose sight of the historical context, we can go astray.

Consider the following statement that my mother might have might have made when my brother and I were kids:

"No children seek to the right thing or seek their mother's wise counsel"

As an abstract statement extracted from context and laid on the table, this statement could conceivably be taken as a statement about the "total depravity" of all children - none of them ever do any good and none of them ever seeks their mother's counsel.

However, if you happen to know that the context in which this statement was uttered was one where brother A was claiming to be better than brother B, then it can legitimately be read another way - namely that the mother is really focussing on the equal level of depravity of her children and is using a little poetic exaggeration to drive home this point (e.g. implying perhaps that no children anywhere ever do a good act).

 

[Bubba]

Drew,
First of all thanks for reading through my "copy and paste", I have a feeling most people just skim through or skip it all together. You bring up some interesting arguments.One important aspect that I think gets confused is that of man's free agency in respect to free will. Man does have the ability to make decisions, but these decisions are influence by everything we have been exposed to or not exposed to since birth. Thus my decision is govern by my inclinations, interpretations, genetic makeup, my origin of birth, my race, my family dynamics, etc. A good example would be a woman born in a small impoverish Muslim city in Afghanistan, all of which would just about gaurantee that she will not become a affluent white collar worker, going to a Christian church, and telling her husband that it is his turn to stay home with the kids tonight while she goes out with the girls. Yet in her circle of the universe, she will indeed be making decisions each and everyday (free agency), but because of all the things that have influence her life including the stain of the Adamic curse, she is not free in regards to her will to serve the one true God.

I believe as I wrote earlier, that God enables all people to be able to love and do what would be consider good deeds, but even for Christians, our best deeds have sin involved and one sin, no matter how small keeps a person from Gods presence. We must have Christ's covering, to be righteous. Mr Chantry, I believe is saying, that in of ourselves, without God's common grace we will never do good. At times current and past, God gives us glimpses of man's real nature, when He pulls back this common grace. What happen in the concentration camps during the second world war to the Jews and what Stallin's regime did to his fellow country men (25 million estimated killed) is a good indicator. Reading about what people have done to children of late in our nation is also a good indicator.
Bubba

 

[MarkT]

In John 8:41-45 Jesus made it clear that you were born of Satan. This evil father hates the truth and imparted the same bias into your heart by nature. Hence said Jesus, “Because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.†How does the human will jump out of man to choose to believe what the human mind hates and denies?

No. Jesus was talking to the Jews. He told them that the devil was their father; that the reason that they didn't hear the words of God was because they were not of God. He was refering to the ones who were talking to him. Jesus knew who they were and what they were thinking and he knew that they wanted to kill him. Therefore John 8:41-45 does not mean all men are born of the devil. All men are under the power of sin. Yes. But John the Baptist, for example, was sent by God to prepare the way of the Lord. He was not 'of' the devil. He was 'of' God.

Of course we have free will. Otherwise we wouldn't need the Counsellor. The Counsellor is there to keep you on the path. Besides that, Paul said that, 'when the Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires ... they show that what the law requires is written on their hearts.' He says that they do it by nature. It is not uncommon to find people who have a kind nature even among the Gentiles. You might say dogs love their own. On the other hand, we were dogs at one time so we know it comes and goes. But let's not judge anyone to be depraved.

But of course believing is not a matter of the will. Choosing not to sin is. So it looks like this discussion is going to continue to flip flop if you can't see the difference. What did Jesus say? - They could not hear because they were not of God. It follows that if they can hear, they must be of God. So if you are of God, then you were predisposed to hearing and understanding. But I don't see any understanding in anyone; neither in the 'freewiller' who needs to twist everything his way nor in the 'no freewiller' who needs to twist everything his way. Not that I would reject anyone who believes in Christ but I think your understanding could be alot better. Try to stay away from the scholars. I can't believe how you can not see that God has made them a stumbling block.

 

[Bubba]

Corinthians 4:4 (New American Standard Bible)


"...in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God"
I think that Scripture is pretty clear that not only the Pharisees(John 8:41-45) were blinded by Satan, but all unbelievers. Thankfully, when the Holy Spirit lifts the veil one can see the truth of Jesus.
Bubba

 

[unred typo]

MarkT wrote: The prophets prophesized and Jesus fulfilled the prophecies. They didn't prophecy the past. They prophesied his coming. Psalms 14 describes the people at his coming. They were following false teachers and no one was doing good.

I'm not defending the total depravity thing either. Of course Mary, who was chosen by God, and the disciples, who were given to Jesus, and John, who was baptising with water, were not totally depraved. But that doesn't make you right.

That’s a relief. I was afraid I may have gotten something right for a minute there.

MarkT wrote: No one can come to Jesus unless he is drawn by the Father. God does nothing in vain. His will is accomplished. If you are called, then it is for his purose; to accomplish his will. No one can resist his will. Even Judas, who was a devil, could not resist. Do you seriously think Jesus didn't know who Judas was even before Judas betrayed him? Do you think Jesus didn't know if Judas would follow him or what his role was even before he chose him? God chose Judas to betray his Son. Did God fail in his purpose? No. The idea that a man can resist God's will and his call is ridiculous. If God purposes something, it comes to pass. The idea that God can call you for his purpose and you can say 'no' and God fails in his purpose for calling you, even for raising you, and that you will not accomplish his will, is ridiculous. Everywhere you are at any moment is God's will.

So if I order a cheese danish instead of a bran muffin it is God’s will? What if I kick puppies and turn over baby carriages? Or if I choose to walk into a bank and take all the money, it is God’s will? Or if I drown all my children, it that God’s will? You’re not making sense here. Let’s drop this Judas example because you have some strange ideas about him that make him an exception to most normal thinking anyway.

Here’s a passage that may let you see what God is about:

Isaiah 5:3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.
4What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

God did everything he could do to get the Israelites to follow righteousness and love one another but instead of doing it, they rebelled and did as they pleased. How was this doing God’s will?

 

[unred typo]

Drew wrote: I find the nature of the above to be representative of the "MYTH OF CIRCUMSTANTIAL FREEDOM" section of Bubba's post. My counter is this: I entirely agree that human free will is highly constrained, more highly constrained than most of us would want to admit. However, the argument in the "MYTH OF CIRCUMSTANTIAL FREEDOM" only establishes that human is greatly constrained - there is nothing to make us believe it is entirely absent. I just want to make that important distinction. And I not intend to imply that Bubba, in particular, does not believe in the existence of limited human free will. I suspect that he does not, but I am not sure.

Drew, you are doing a great job explaining Mr. Chantry’s various entitled ‘MYTHS.’ I think you have it right. You might have heard the story of the little boy who was punished by being made to stand in the corner. It illustrates the will of man pretty well. When his mother in another room asked if he was still standing in the corner, he pouted back, “yes, I’m standing on the outside but inside, I’m sitting down.†This is what we have to realize, I think. The will is our ‘inside’ attitude. We may be doing God’s will on the outside but inside, we could be still in rebellion or the reverse may be true. Our will is free, even if we are forced to do something against it. As you have said in the past, we cannot be held responsible for actions that are forced upon us against our will or in spite of it. I believe that means we will be not be rewarded for actions we did not freely do either.

 

[unred typo]

Bubba wrote on Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:57 pm
Drew, First of all thanks for reading through my "copy and paste", I have a feeling most people just skim through or skip it all together. You bring up some interesting arguments.One important aspect that I think gets confused is that of man's free agency in respect to free will. Man does have the ability to make decisions, but these decisions are influence by everything we have been exposed to or not exposed to since birth. Thus my decision is govern by my inclinations, interpretations, genetic makeup, my origin of birth, my race, my family dynamics, etc. A good example would be a woman born in a small impoverish Muslim city in Afghanistan, all of which would just about gaurantee that she will not become a affluent white collar worker, going to a Christian church, and telling her husband that it is his turn to stay home with the kids tonight while she goes out with the girls. Yet in her circle of the universe, she will indeed be making decisions each and everyday (free agency), but because of all the things that have influence her life including the stain of the Adamic curse, she is not free in regards to her will to serve the one true God.

Bubba, I read ‘your’ post since it probably is everything you believe and more. I don’t like entire ’cut and paste’ posts because you can’t explain what someone else meant when they wrote and you may misunderstand their meaning entirely and when we all get done discussing it, 15 pages later, we all discover that wasn’t even what you believe. Why don’t you just explain your view in your own words as you have done here?

With your girls night out in Afghanistan example, I agree she is not free to decide her choices, but that doesn’t mean she is not free to will what she would do if she could. That’s why Jesus said to look on a woman with lust was the same as to commit adultery. You will be judged by your actions in light of your heart’s intentions.

Bubba wrote:
I believe as I wrote earlier, that God enables all people to be able to love and do what would be consider good deeds, but even for Christians, our best deeds have sin involved and one sin, no matter how small keeps a person from Gods presence. We must have Christ's covering, to be righteous.

I believe that the desire to do God’s will to love and forgive one another will be the impetus that we will be judged by and by which we will be kept clean of our sin as the following verse shows:

1John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin.

Bubba wrote:
Mr Chantry, I believe is saying, that in of ourselves, without God's common grace we will never do good. At times current and past, God gives us glimpses of man's real nature, when He pulls back this common grace. What happen in the concentration camps during the second world war to the Jews and what Stallin's regime did to his fellow country men (25 million estimated killed) is a good indicator. Reading about what people have done to children of late in our nation is also a good indicator.
Bubba

If we will never do good in and of ourselves, then why does God ask us to? Is he stupid or disingenuous? Why would he make us appear to be doing good when it is really he who does it? That would be defeating his purpose to show us in truth what we really are. Let me repeat myself. Is he stupid or disingenuous? Let me answer that instead. He is neither. We have a free will to choose to do good or evil. He has done everything in his power to get us to see that we are free to choose to do good, even though we are tempted to do the opposite. He has carrots and sticks, and he has released us from the control of Satan and the power of sin. Now choose to do good, for why shall you die?

Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby you have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will you die, O house of Israel?
Ezekiel 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, says the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn you, turn you from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel?

 

[unred typo]

Bubba wrote on Sat Aug 25, 2007 3:28 am
Corinthians 4:4 (New American Standard Bible)


"...in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God"
I think that Scripture is pretty clear that not only the Pharisees(John 8:41-45) were blinded by Satan, but all unbelievers. Thankfully, when the Holy Spirit lifts the veil one can see the truth of Jesus.
Bubba

I did this one once. Do you have me on ‘ignore’ or your own ‘select-a-read’ filter? Again, it is walking in the darkness of hatred that blinds our eyes, whether we are ‘believers’ or ‘unbelievers’. Satan merely tempts us to hate one another. Read what John had to say about it. I know he probably never went to seminary or Bible college but I think he knows as much as your Mr. Chantry.

1 John 2:10-11
He that loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no occasion of stumbling in him.
But he that hates his brother is in darkness, and walks in darkness, and knows not whither he goes, because that darkness has blinded his eyes.

 

[MarkT]

So if I order a cheese danish instead of a bran muffin it is God’s will? What if I kick puppies and turn over baby carriages? Or if I choose to walk into a bank and take all the money, it is God’s will? Or if I drown all my children, it that God’s will? You’re not making sense here. Let’s drop this Judas example because you have some strange ideas about him that make him an exception to most normal thinking anyway.

God directs our steps; so that if you're standing there in front of the counter, it is God's will. It was your plan but it was God's will that you are there. If you're there to buy something or to commit robbery, whether to do good or evil, it is all God's will but it is your plan and your will that you are planning to do and if it is to do evil, then you are doing the devil's will. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. If you kick puppies and turn over carriages it is your will you are doing. By that I mean no one is forcing you. If you drown your children, you are doing your will. If your conscience doesn't convict you then chances are you are not of God. If it seems right to you, then chances are you are of the devil or a follower of the false prophet, because the light isn't in you. If you speak falsely and teach what is false about God, then chances are you are a son of the evil one doing your father's will. He didn't speak the truth. He was a liar from the beginning. If you're reading this, it is God's will. If you understand, it is because you are of God. We pray, 'lead us not into temptation'. We pray, 'deliver us from evil'. God delivered the Israelites out of Egypt. He put them in the wilderness. It was his will that they were there, however, they would not obey him still and they would not listen to him so he punished them.

 

[Imagican]

While we OPENLY acknowledge that God IS ALL POWERFUL and we are TOTALLY bound up within this power, EVERYTHING offered in the Word points DIRECTLY to 'free will' of the individual. While He CERTAINLY knows the hearts of EACH individual and IS capable of influencing us ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, that STILL does NOT take away 'free will'.

There are MANY indications that God does NOT want 'mindless robots' to live with Him forever. But instead, He desires those that are capable of LEARNING that which He is SO WILLING to TEACH. He desires those that WANT to know and love Him. And, when it's time, He will certainly 'weed out' those that have chosen 'another way'.

And what indication is there that; EVEN THOUGH those that come to Jesus MUST be inspired to do so BY GOD HIMSELF, that He DOESN'T 'attempt' to inspire even those that CHOOSE another way? I personally believe that He gives EVERYONE the 'chance'. He reveals Himself to EVERYONE in one way or another. The difference is that NOT everyone 'heeds' the message. Some just pass it up just like ANYTHING else that they 'choose' to ignore in their lives, (just as many are able to ignore or 'go against' their concience). And THAT, my friends, is NOTHING short of FREE WILL.

Any other 'choice' in this matter is to 'think' that some people are 'special' and that others AREN'T. That is ludicrous. For EACH of us IS special to God. We were EACH created for a purpose and God does NOT simply pick and choose who He will love and who He will not. He loves ALL OF US. Sinner and Saint alike. NO, not alike as in 'to the SAME degree', (He has certainly had His favorites), but in that He STILL loves each of us as His children. EVEN the ones that 'go astray'.

What 'special people' those are that believe that they 'just HAPPEN TO BE' one of those that God 'CHOSE' to be loved by Him. And IF this were the case, tell me PLEASE, which 'beliefs' in 'religion' ARE the TRUE beliefs that have been bestowed upon WHO? Point out just ONE of these 'chosen, special people' that doesn't have 'their OWN beliefs' in scripture and religion.

No guys and gals, God wants EVERY man, woman and child to BE HIS. It's the damaged souls that separate some from Him. And this 'damage' was NOT caused by God Himself. At one point we MUST 'stand up' and be accounted for. When judgement comes, each of us will be convicted of OUR OWN decisions. Just as a supposed 'Chrisitian' IS able to sin AFTER being 'born again', so too are ALL men able to choose between following TRUTH or following LIES.

MEC

 

[MarkT]

But there are weeds among the wheat and goats among the sheep. There are those who are chosen to tend the sheep, to water the flock, to impart the spiritual truth and wisdom that comes to them. We are the light. We are here to give you hope. You are not alone. Look at the world. They do what seems right to them. See how they have exchanged the truth about God for lies. Everyone does evil. No one does good. Can you blame God for the wrath that is to come? God's mercy and patience is meant to bring them to repentance but they have forgotten him. They hate his words. They are all corrupt. Look at the church. God disciplines his sons for their own good but they don't want his discipline. They pray for a blessing. They follow after false teachers who promise them blessings. They do not fear God.

 

[MarkT]

"...in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God"
I think that Scripture is pretty clear that not only the Pharisees(John 8:41-45) were blinded by Satan, but all unbelievers.

Actually, he was speaking to the Jews who believed in him. Read the whole thing. John 8:34, 'Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him' It is a lesson to us. There are many teachers in the church who believe in Jesus who can't hear him. You know that. The ones who ordain homosexuals, for example. The ones who promise financially blessings. They are the sons of the evil one.

 

[Bubba]

Unred Typo wrote:

“I did this one once. Do you have me on ‘ignore’ or your own ‘select-a-read’ filter? Again, it is walking in the darkness of hatred that blinds our eyes, whether we are ‘believers’ or ‘unbelievers’. Satan merely tempts us to hate one another. Read what John had to say about it. I know he probably never went to seminary or Bible college but I think he knows as much as youâ€Â

We walk in the darkness because that is what we prefer (John 3:19), but once regeneration happens through the Holy Spirit we have a new inclination and now we have a sensitivity to Gods ways and commands. If we still walk in darkness after confessing Jesus as Saviour, then we have a said faith, and not a real faith. The law of God to those who have His Spirit is what brings us to our knees, and causes us to cry out for mercy and causes us to have a desire to heed. Those who do not have the Holy Spirit are liken to a blind man who fails to see the warning sign on the cliff before him as he walks over the edge into eternal destruction. Paul explained to King Agripa in Acts 26:18 that the Holy Spirit directed him to go to the Gentiles “to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.†His own Damascus road experience where the veil was removed from his own eyes had nothing to do with his will at that moment, but God’s, who had are ready predetermined him to be his instrument to the Gentiles. This in spite of the fact that his desire just prior to being knocked off his feet was to persecute Christians (Acts 9).
Bubba

 

[unred typo]

MarkT wrote on Sat Aug 25, 2007

God directs our steps; so that if you're standing there in front of the counter, it is God's will. It was your plan but it was God's will that you are there. If you're there to buy something or to commit robbery, whether to do good or evil, it is all God's will but it is your plan and your will that you are planning to do and if it is to do evil, then you are doing the devil's will. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. If you kick puppies and turn over carriages it is your will you are doing. By that I mean no one is forcing you. If you drown your children, you are doing your will. If your conscience doesn't convict you then chances are you are not of God. If it seems right to you, then chances are you are of the devil or a follower of the false prophet, because the light isn't in you. If you speak falsely and teach what is false about God, then chances are you are a son of the evil one doing your father's will. He didn't speak the truth. He was a liar from the beginning. If you're reading this, it is God's will. If you understand, it is because you are of God. We pray, 'lead us not into temptation'. We pray, 'deliver us from evil'. God delivered the Israelites out of Egypt. He put them in the wilderness. It was his will that they were there, however, they would not obey him still and they would not listen to him so he punished them.

So, does man have a free will and is capable of doing good things that will please God, or is everything good we do caused by God and never our idea at all? IOW, do you believe God is only pleased with his own goodness and causing us to do what he wants us to do, for which he will reward us who have no choice but to do what he has determined that we will do?

 

[unred typo]

Bubba wrote on Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:46 am

We walk in the darkness because that is what we prefer (John 3:19), but once regeneration happens through the Holy Spirit we have a new inclination and now we have a sensitivity to Gods ways and commands. If we still walk in darkness after confessing Jesus as Saviour, then we have a said faith, and not a real faith. The law of God to those who have His Spirit is what brings us to our knees, and causes us to cry out for mercy and causes us to have a desire to heed. Those who do not have the Holy Spirit are liken to a blind man who fails to see the warning sign on the cliff before him as he walks over the edge into eternal destruction. Paul explained to King Agripa in Acts 26:18 that the Holy Spirit directed him to go to the Gentiles “to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.†His own Damascus road experience where the veil was removed from his own eyes had nothing to do with his will at that moment, but God’s, who had are ready predetermined him to be his instrument to the Gentiles. This in spite of the fact that his desire just prior to being knocked off his feet was to persecute Christians (Acts 9).
Bubba

You didn’t read far enough in John 3. Finish the thought:

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


Saul/Paul was going to persecute Christians because he truly believed they were heretics who were leading people to hell by their evil teaching. He did what he did, believing that God was with him. He was chosen because he had a zeal for God, but was entirely misdirected, and did it ignorantly in disbelief. What he did, he did in truth. Read it for yourself:

1 Timothy 1:13
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

When he met Jesus, he learned that the message of God was to ‘love one another’, not to ‘kill the heretics’. He learned that hatred was darkness and love was the light of God. Satan draws men into darkness where they cannot see the way of God.

1 John 2:10-11
He that loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no occasion of stumbling in him. But he that hates his brother is in darkness, and walks in darkness, and knows not which way he goes, because that darkness has blinded his eyes.

So, here we have an example of a man of his own free will, doing things in order to please God. Because of this, although he is wrong, God gives him the truth, chooses him to do his work and gives him a place of honor. All because he meant to do what God wanted. His heart was in the right place but his theology was messed up. He was walking in the darkness of hate. Jesus taught him that to love his fellowman was to love God.

Now, if he had rejected the message of love and continued to persecute Christians so he wouldn‘t lose his standing among his fellow Pharisees, would God still have been pleased with Paul?