Free will or no free will?

[Bubba]

Acts 9:15-21
15But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. 16For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name." 17So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized; 19and taking food, he was strengthened.For some days he was with the disciples at Damascus. 20And immediately he proclaimed Jesus in the synagogues, saying, "He is the Son of God." 21And all who heard him were amazed and said, "Is not this the man who made havoc in Jerusalem of those who called upon this name? And has he not come here for this purpose, to bring them bound before the chief priests?"

The Lord tells Ananias that Paul is a “chosen instrument†and in this passage, there is no indication of Paul becoming anything less then a tool of the Lord by Divine intervention. This is an out working of God’s Spirit and purpose in Paul, and with all of us through out the ages that are called before the foundation of the earth, God has purpose to work through us. Ephesians 2:10 after God has made us alive to Jesus (2:1-9) we have, “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand , that we should walk in themâ€Â. And in Philippians 2:13 after we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, “for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasureâ€Â. This working out of His purposes began in the mind of the triune God prior to the creation of earth, that he would have Himself a people in every age after the birth of the universe, which was ordained to eternal togetherness with the Godhead. Acts 13:48 “… and as many He appointed to eternal life believed†and John 1:12-13, “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born not of the blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.†So just like in the case of Paul all who are able to believe and receive the message of the cross, were first born again spiritually (regeneration) as Jesus told Nicodemus, “unless one is born again, he can not see the kingdom of God¢â‚¬Â. Being born again is a God thing.
Bubba

 

[Bubba]

1 Timothy 1:13
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
Unred typo,
You do pose a interesting verse to try and assert that something in Paul caused the Lord to convert him. Do you suppose that a great many of the Jewish religious leaders were any less devout to what they thought was true? How about a modern day Jehovah Witness or Mormon, who also believes ignorantly that they are pleasing God with their zeal? God did not give Paul what he deserved or me (heathen, Roman Catholic,Jehovah Witness, then born again believer), but instead granted mercy for no other reason then His good pleasure. Remember that Paul saw himself as a great sinner, greater then most (verse 15) due undoubtedly from his acute memory of what he once was, a persecutor of Christians. Acts 3:17-21, is for all people to heed (though ignorant of our sin being the reason Christ died) and those who have been given a new heart will indeed repent. 2 Timothy 1:9 Paul says it well, would you not agree? “who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not of according to our works (even Paul’s zealous pharisaic life beforehand) but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from eternityâ€Â.
Bubba

 

[unred typo]

Bubba wrote on Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:28 pm
Acts 9:15-21
15But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. 16For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name." 17So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized; 19and taking food, he was strengthened.For some days he was with the disciples at Damascus. 20And immediately he proclaimed Jesus in the synagogues, saying, "He is the Son of God." 21And all who heard him were amazed and said, "Is not this the man who made havoc in Jerusalem of those who called upon this name? And has he not come here for this purpose, to bring them bound before the chief priests?"

The Lord tells Ananias that Paul is a “chosen instrument†and in this passage, there is no indication of Paul becoming anything less then a tool of the Lord by Divine intervention. This is an out working of God’s Spirit and purpose in Paul, and with all of us through out the ages that are called before the foundation of the earth, God has purpose to work through us.

In that passage, you might get away with such a thought about Paul but how do you justify extending it to “all of us through out the ages that are called before the foundation of the earth� You know, there is no verse that supports such an unreasonable notion. God foreknew Christ because he planned from the time of creation to send his Word to become flesh and redeem us from the curse brought about by man’s sin. ‘Those who are in Christ’ when they die physically were generically chosen, whosoever they are. They are not specific people chosen before they were born. If they remain in Christ, they remain as the chosen ones. If they forsake Christ, they are no longer chosen. Paul was a chosen vessel to preach to the Gentiles, but this is not to say he was chosen in eternity past, before he even was a twinkle in his great, great, great, great, great +/- grandfather‘s eye. God foreknew Paul when he was a young Pharisee named Saul. Why do you people only think of eternity past when you see the word ‘foreknew’ or ‘predestinated’ ?

Bubba wrote:
Ephesians 2:10 after God has made us alive to Jesus (2:1-9) we have, “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand , that we should walk in themâ€Â. And in Philippians 2:13 after we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, “for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasureâ€Â. This working out of His purposes began in the mind of the triune God prior to the creation of earth, that he would have Himself a people in every age after the birth of the universe, which was ordained to eternal togetherness with the Godhead.

This planning out of His purposes no doubt began in the mind of God prior to the creation of earth, but there is no logical reason to believe this process eliminated the freedom of the human will. You can’t even get there from here without a painful stretch.

Bubba wrote:
Acts 13:48 “… and as many He appointed to eternal life believedâ€Â

Who has God appointed to eternal life? Those followers of Christ who by “patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality†( Romans 2:7 ) whoever they turn out to be. These in Acts were seeking God and doing good works in truth before the disciples even preached the gospel. They were probably some the same ones who came to listen to Christ preach. They were doing truth so they were drawn to the light. ( John 3:21 ) There is no reason to assume they were chosen before they were born.

Bubba wrote:and John 1:12-13, “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born not of the blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.†So just like in the case of Paul all who are able to believe and receive the message of the cross, were first born again spiritually (regeneration) as Jesus told Nicodemus, “unless one is born again, he can not see the kingdom of Godâ€Â. Being born again is a God thing.
Bubba

One is not going to step foot into heaven, nor see the golden streets or pearly gates until they have been born from above. That doesn’t mean no one can understand the message of Christ until they are born again. You are reading something into the text that just isn’t there.

 

[MarkT]

So, does man have a free will and is capable of doing good things that will please God, or is everything good we do caused by God and never our idea at all? IOW, do you believe God is only pleased with his own goodness and causing us to do what he wants us to do, for which he will reward us who have no choice but to do what he has determined that we will do?

You could believe in God. That would certainly please him. You could resist the devil. That would be good. Your question is whether God forces man to do good. No. But he disciplines those who love him for doing evil. God teaches us what to do. His Spirit leads us. The thoughts of our heart, if the heart is pure, come from God. If you believe his Word, God has made you his temple. Our ideas come from a source. We weigh the ideas and we come to a decision. Yes, we have freewill but if you are of God, then you are a part of him. His ideas make sense to you as they do to him and his will makes sense. That's why we do his will. We are of God. But man is flesh and blood. We on the other hand are not, though we occupy man temporarily. Man was created for us so that we could hear the Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ and he gave us his immortal body and eternal life.

 

[unred typo]

MarkT wrote:
You could believe in God. That would certainly please him. You could resist the devil. That would be good. Your question is whether God forces man to do good. No. But he disciplines those who love him for doing evil. God teaches us what to do. His Spirit leads us. The thoughts of our heart, if the heart is pure, come from God. If you believe his Word, God has made you his temple. Our ideas come from a source. We weigh the ideas and we come to a decision. Yes, we have freewill but if you are of God, then you are a part of him. His ideas make sense to you as they do to him and his will makes sense. That's why we do his will. We are of God. But man is flesh and blood. We on the other hand are not, though we occupy man temporarily. Man was created for us so that we could hear the Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ and he gave us his immortal body and eternal life.

Okayyyy…you’re getting a little too mystic for me. Judas was a demon in a human body and we are part of God and just occupying human bodies so we can hear the Son of God who gave us his body and eternal life? Excuse me, but that is not making sense. Whatever floats your boat. I can’t get my head into all this coagulated spiritual jello stuff. Clogs my sinuses. I’ll read through your posts but don’t expect an answer unless I just can‘t help myself.

:infinity:

 

[Bubba]

Unred typo wrote:

“They are not specific people chosen before they were born. If they remain in Christ, they remain as the chosen ones. If they forsake Christ, they are no longer chosen. Paul was a chosen vessel to preach to the Gentiles, but this is not to say he was chosen in eternity past, before he even was a twinkle in his great, great, great, great, great +/- grandfather‘s eye.â€Â

Yet, let God's Word be true, Galatians 1:15-16 says; “But when He who had set me apart , even from my mother’s womb, and called me through His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles…ÀÂ
Bubba

 

[Drew]

“They are not specific people chosen before they were born. If they remain in Christ, they remain as the chosen ones. If they forsake Christ, they are no longer chosen. Paul was a chosen vessel to preach to the Gentiles, but this is not to say he was chosen in eternity past, before he even was a twinkle in his great, great, great, great, great +/- grandfather‘s eye.â€Â

Yet, let God's Word be true, Galatians 1:15-16 says; “But when He who had set me apart , even from my mother’s womb, and called me through His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles…â€Â

I do not see this text as supporting the notion of election in general - that God generally elects people unto salvation or unto damnation. Instead, I think the only conclusion that we can draw here is that Paul was indeed pre-destined, but for a specific purpose - preaching the gospel to the Gentiles. Now of course, in order to ensure that this happens, it would seem that God would also need to pre-destine Paul unto salvation. It seems rather implausible that the "preaching to the Gentiles" would be fore-ordained while it was not also fore-ordained that Paul would become a believer.

So here I might part company with unred, with whom I almost always agree :D , when I suggest that perhaps God does indeed elect people unto salvation - but only in very special cases (such as the situation with Paul). In this regard, I suggest that material from Ephesians 1 (material that also has a strong predestination flavour) may also refer to "one-time" election in order to ensure that a specific element of God's plan in history comes to fruition.

I am generally very dubious about the doctrine of election unto salvation and damnation. I think that some texts that are used in support of this doctrine are misunderstood in that they really refer to groups of people in relation to purposes other than the salvation of individuals. So, for example, I think that the "potter" stuff in Romans (chapter 9?) is really about God "electing" Israel as a nation to be "cast away for the sins of the world" as part of God's great plan to redeem all of humanity and all of creation. The working out of this plan involved Israel being "cast away" into exile as a nation, not the casting of individuals into eternal loss. Of course, God intervenes and Christ (instead of faithless Israel) actually ends up bearing the sin of the world, even though national Israel started down that road.

Another reason to be dubious of election as commonly understood: In Romans, Paul goes out of his way to undermine the "national boast" of Israel - namely that they are God's covenant people simply in virtue of their ethnicity. This is not so, Paul argues, and refers to the establishment of the covenant in Genesis 15 and repeats the key statement "Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness". Faith, not nationality, is the criteria for covenant membership. It would seem awfully odd that Paul would argue this point on the one hand and yet also believe that people are indeed "born" unto salvation after all by believing in the existence of an "elect".

Even though the elect unto salvation are, of course, not national Israel - they still would constitute a set of people who are essentially privileged by birth unto salvation, just as the Jews believed that they were automatically members of the covenant by virtue of being born an ethnic Jew. It seems to me that this is the kind of thinking that Paul clearly repudiates in Romans.

 

[unred typo]

by Bubba:

[quote:015b1]Unred typo wrote:
“They are not specific people chosen before they were born. If they remain in Christ, they remain as the chosen ones. If they forsake Christ, they are no longer chosen. Paul was a chosen vessel to preach to the Gentiles, but this is not to say he was chosen in eternity past, before he even was a twinkle in his great, great, great, great, great +/- grandfather‘s eye.â€Â

Yet, let God's Word be true, Galatians 1:15-16 says; “But when He who had set me apart , even from my mother’s womb, and called me through His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles…â€Â
Bubba[/quote:015b1]

Good job, Bubba. I will concede that Paul was chosen from his mother’s womb but that is not before he was conceived, in eternity past. God could see his substance, as yet unformed, and know what the character of this child would be:

Psalm 139:16
Your eyes did see my substance, yet being imperfect; and in your book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

He may have already been chosen by the Jewish temple leadership to be dedicated unto the service of God. His mother may have prayed for him to be a preacher of righteousness. God choosing him to preach to the Gentiles was probably an answer to prayers made in his behalf.

Now I want you to concede what it does not say; that Paul was chosen for salvation before he was born. I think Drew will agree with me here, :wink: that to preach the gospel to the Gentiles is not to say that he would be given eternal life. He was to be compelled, either willingly or unwillingly, to preach the gospel:

1 Corinthians 9:16-17
For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

This clearly shows that God had ordained that he would do it but if he did it unwillingly, he would not be getting a reward.

 

[unred typo]

by Drew:

Another reason to be dubious of election as commonly understood: In Romans, Paul goes out of his way to undermine the "national boast" of Israel - namely that they are God's covenant people simply in virtue of their ethnicity. This is not so, Paul argues, and refers to the establishment of the covenant in Genesis 15 and repeats the key statement "Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness". Faith, not nationality, is the criteria for covenant membership. It would seem awfully odd that Paul would argue this point on the one hand and yet also believe that people are indeed "born" unto salvation after all by believing in the existence of an "elect".

Even though the elect unto salvation are, of course, not national Israel - they still would constitute a set of people who are essentially privileged by birth unto salvation, just as the Jews believed that they were automatically members of the covenant by virtue of being born an ethnic Jew. It seems to me that this is the kind of thinking that Paul clearly repudiates in Romans.

Although I highly value the prospect of intelligent life agreeing with me, :-D I can’t gloss over what I deem as incorrect if it is an important point, even to keep company with such a fine truth seeker as yourself nor do I expect you to do otherwise. We may not arrive at the same conclusions at the same point in time, but I believe we are headed in the same direction. That said, I think your exposition above is excellent, both clear and correct, and I agree. :smt023

 

[Drew]

Now I want you to concede what it does not say; that Paul was chosen for salvation before he was born. I think Drew will agree with me here, :wink: that to preach the gospel to the Gentiles is not to say that he would be given eternal life. He was to be compelled, either willingly or unwillingly, to preach the gospel:

1 Corinthians 9:16-17
For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

This clearly shows that God had ordained that he would do it but if he did it unwillingly, he would not be getting a reward.

If you had not provided the 1 Cor text, I might have been inclined to counter that it seems incoherent that Paul could preach the gospel (as I think we are all agreeing he was ordained to do so from his mother's womb) without having necessarily attained personal salvation (and therefore eternal life). But the 1 Cor text does seem to suggest the possibility that Paul could have done what he was fore-ordained to do (preach the gospel), yet done so unwillingly. Is there not some other text about people preaching the gospel from a position of unbelief and yet that gospel having some positive effect?

I take it you do not believe that anyone is ever "elected unto salvation". Am I correct in this?

 

[unred typo]

If you had not provided the 1 Cor text, I might have been inclined to counter that it seems incoherent that Paul could preach the gospel (as I think we are all agreeing he was ordained to do so from his mother's womb) without having necessarily attained personal salvation (and therefore eternal life). But the 1 Cor text does seem to suggest the possibility that Paul could have done what he was fore-ordained to do (preach the gospel), yet done so unwillingly. Is there not some other text about people preaching the gospel from a position of unbelief and yet that gospel having some positive effect?

I take it you do not believe that anyone is ever "elected unto salvation". Am I correct in this?

Yes, that’s my basic premise. I believe that the verses that are used to ‘prove’ this are either verses that are referring to Christ and those unnamed ones who will eventually be ‘in Christ’ by their free will actions, or they are related to those who are elected to do some specific job or action ordained by God, for which they may or may not even be held accountable if their own will was not employed in the doing of it.

Other examples about people preaching the gospel from a position of unbelief might be the Israelites who were elected to be a light unto the rest of the world (who usually became the examples of what happens to those who disobey as well. ) Or Jonah who was called to go to Nineveh and placed there to preach against his will. As far as NT, we have the example of those who Paul said were preaching the gospel to irk him but he rejoiced because the gospel was nevertheless preached, regardless of their motives. Forgive the lack of references as I’m pressed for time at the moment. There may be many others but those are off the top of my head. Maybe you could find others yourself but that’s a start. I know it’s better to leave your mind open and see what verses the Lord will try our ideas with as we continue to study. God bless.

 

[follower of Christ]

The thread on free will kind of got side-tracked onto a different tangent so I thought I'd initiate a thread about the specific issue of free will.

When planning and creating the universe there can only be 2 options on how it would go:

1) The notion that some people were si.......................................

................ has the right to decide how he will pay and treat his employess even though humans think we can decide what's fair or not. : Romans 9:11-25 also makes the same point that only God is soveriegn.

So God's plan in option 2 is the only equitable system because it leaves human desire and power out of it. It also makes us all equal before God and breeds humility rather than pride and most iportantly, makes salvation open to anyone who wants it because none of us knows who God's elect are.

Without free will creation is meaningless.
God would have created mindless drone workers who could choose nothing but what He forced them to choose.
We would not love Him, He would forcibly love Himself thru us.
We would not honor Him. He would forcibly honor Himself thru these bodies.

Im sorry, but that isnt the God of scripture that Ive read about.
The God Ive read about created a being that had a choice to love Him...not mindless drone workers who only care about Him because Hes given them no other choice.

What a miserable faith it must be knowing that a person only loves God because He has a gun to their head.... :

 

[Bubba]

Unred Typo wrote in part:
"Now I want you to concede what it does not say; that Paul was chosen for salvation before he was born. I think Drew will agree with me here, that to preach the gospel to the Gentiles is not to say that he would be given eternal life. He was to be compelled, either willingly or unwillingly, to preach the gospel:

1 Corinthians 9:16-17
For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

This clearly shows that God had ordained that he would do it but if he did it unwillingly, he would not be getting a reward.unred typo "

His reward was to preached the gospel in this realm, "What then is my reward ? That when I preached the gospel, I may offer the gospel without charge, so as to make full use of my right in the gospel" 1 Corinthians 9:18. His salvation was already assured as John wrote in his 1st epistle "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life" 1John 5:12. Paul wrote in Galatians 2:20, "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me..." Not only did the Lord choose Paul from his mothers womb, but He also called him "...through His grace and was pleased to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles..." Galatians 1:15-16. His life was predetermined by the Lord and salvation was the impetus to preach to the Gentiles. He does the same thing through every believer in every age, Ephesians 1:4-13 and Ephesians 2:1-10. Remembering the direct objects of the words used in these passages describes God's work as personal. People are predestined, people are chosen, people are adopted before the world began, not acts, not plans, not possibilities.
Bubba

 

[unred typo]

quote by Bubba on Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:53 am
His reward was to preached the gospel in this realm, "What then is my reward ? That when I preached the gospel, I may offer the gospel without charge, so as to make full use of my right in the gospel" 1 Corinthians 9:18. His salvation was already assured as John wrote in his 1st epistle "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life" 1John 5:12. Paul wrote in Galatians 2:20, "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me..." Not only did the Lord choose Paul from his mothers womb, but He also called him "...through His grace and was pleased to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles..." Galatians 1:15-16. His life was predetermined by the Lord and salvation was the impetus to preach to the Gentiles. He does the same thing through every believer in every age, Ephesians 1:4-13 and Ephesians 2:1-10. Remembering the direct objects of the words used in these passages describes God's work as personal. People are predestined, people are chosen, people are adopted before the world began, not acts, not plans, not possibilities.
Bubba

Finish the chapter, Bubba.

1 Corinthians 9:24
Know you not that they which run in a race run all, but one receives the prize? So run, that you may obtain.
25And every man that strives for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beats the air:
27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Here you see that Paul exclaims that he could be a castaway if he doesn’t keep his body under subjection. He was chosen to preach the gospel from the time he was in his mother’s womb but he was not chosen for salvation, Bubba. He was not chosen from the foundation of the world before he existed, anyway. You have not established this to be the case even in Paul.

Let’s see what else is messin up your brain.
Ephesians 1:4-13 and Ephesians 2:1-10. This is going to make my post really long but we need to see what Paul is saying:

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Notice first and foremost that we are blessed in Christ. This is the key thought; that before the foundation of the world, God planned and ordained that those who believed and followed Christ would be blessed with eternal life. We are blessed in Christ.

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Again, it is repeated that we are not chosen but we are chosen in him. This would be like a teacher planning to have a ranger come and speak to his next year’s class a week before a planned hike in October. He is ordaining that every child who follows the instructions of the Park Ranger and wears the required shoes and brings a lunch will get to go on into the bus and on to the field trip and those who don‘t will have to stay at school. They are predestined and chosen in their believing in the word of the ranger, or not, before the beginning of school. Are they individuals in these groups? Yes, but the groups do not yet exist even though the children who either go or stay are predestined to do so, by their actions.


5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

These are predestined to the adoption by Jesus Christ who had outlined what the criteria will be in order to be adopted.

6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Notice how they are made acceptable? In the beloved. What does Jesus do to make us acceptable? He gives us instructions to follow and provides us with the blood that will wash our sin away when we confess and repent, as he told us to.

7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Where is our redemption? In Christ, though his blood.

8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his own will:
12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13In whom you also trusted, after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Everything predestined is predestined for those in Christ, as a selected group, not individually. Now that you get the concept, hopefully, you can read the Ephesians 2 passage with better understanding of what is being said:
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2Wherein in time past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace you are saved;)
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are brought into this standing in Christ through following Christ. He has made us a peculiar people, set apart by our belief in what he taught and how we live in the world. This whole idea to save us through faith was God’s. We didn’t work it all out and boast to God that we are going to be faithful to Christ and now he must make a place for us in heaven. This plan was his idea from the foundation of the world from the moment he decided to create man and give him free will.

If you decide to give your children free will to choose between going to church with you or to the playground with mean Aunt Sulky, you must be prepared that they may not choose what you would want them to do and make arrangements either way. The arrangements for man’s salvation were made before man was even created. He ordained that faith in Christ will result in our doing good works and he graciously allows us the option to choose this or reject it. Those who choose to take the option of following Christ must realize that even this option is a gift from God and not a working of our plans for eternity.

 

[Bubba]

Unre typo,
I would expect no less from you to write a commentary of this sort, but just in case God has opened your eyes, or will in the near future to His sovereignty in all things especially our salvation, I leave you a quote from Matthew Henry on Ephesians 1:

"Election, or choice, respects that lump or mass of mankind out of which some are chosen, from which they are separated and distinguished. Predestination has respect to the blessings they are designed for; particularly the adoption of children, it being the purpose of God that in due time we should become his adopted children, and so have a right to all the privileges and to the inheritance of children. We have here the date of this act of love: it was before the foundation of the world; not only before God’s people had a being, but before the world had a beginning; for they were chosen in the counsel of God from all eternity. It magnifies these blessings to a high degree that they are the products of eternal counsel. The alms which you give to beggars at your doors proceed from a sudden resolve; but the provision which a parent makes for his children is the result of many thoughts, and is put into his last will and testament with a great deal of solemnity. And, as this magnifies divine love, so it secures the blessings to God’s elect; for the purpose of God according to election shall stand. He acts in pursuance of his eternal purpose in bestowing spiritual blessings upon his people. He hath blessed us  according as he hath chosen us in him, in Christ the great head of the election, who is emphatically called God’s elect, his chosen; and in the chosen Redeemer an eye of favour was cast upon them. Observe here one great end and design of this choice: chosen-that we should be holy; not because he foresaw they would be holy, but because he determined to make them so. All who are chosen to happiness as the end are chosen to holiness as the means. Their sanctification, as well as their salvation, is the result of the counsels of divine love. And without blame before him â€â€that their holiness might not be merely external and in outward appearance, so as to prevent blame from men, but internal and real, and what God himself, who looketh at the heart, will account such, such holiness as proceeds from love to God and to our fellow-creatures, this charity being the principle of all true holiness. The original word signifies such an innocence as no man can carp at; and therefore some understand it of that perfect holiness which the saints shall attain in the life to come, which will be eminently before God, they being in his immediate presence for ever. Here is also the rule and the fontal cause of God’s election: it is according to the good pleasure of his will (v. 5), not for the sake of any thing in them foreseen, but because it was his sovereign will, and a thing highly pleasing to him. It is according to the purpose, the fixed and unalterable will, of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will (v. 11), who powerfully accomplishes whatever concerns his elect, as he has wisely and freely fore-ordained and decreed, the last and great end and design of all which is his own glory: To the praise of the glory of his grace (v. 6), that we should be to the praise of his glory (v. 12), that is, that we should live and behave ourselves in such a manner that his rich grace might be magnified, and appear glorious, and worthy of the highest praise. All is of God, and from him, and through him, and therefore all must be to him, and centre in his praise. Note, The glory of God is his own end, and it should be ours in all that we do."

Bubba

 

[unred typo]

Bubba wrote: Unre typo, I would expect no less from you to write a commentary of this sort, but just in case God has opened your eyes, or will in the near future to His sovereignty in all things especially our salvation, I leave you a quote from Matthew Henry on Ephesians 1:

I would expect no more from you than cut and paste commentary written by someone else. Just in case you have chosen to employ your God given common sense, I will pretend that you can answer the questions I have for Mr. Henry without pasting in another commentary.

Election, or choice, respects that lump or mass of mankind out of which some are chosen, from which they are separated and distinguished. Predestination has respect to the blessings they are designed for; particularly the adoption of children, it being the purpose of God that in due time we should become his adopted children, and so have a right to all the privileges and to the inheritance of children.

Interesting use of the word, ‘respect’. Reminds me of the verse that says God is no respecter of persons in regard to his judgment, yet here you are saying that God has chosen some for which he will have to pay special respects to in the very thing he has stated he will not show favoritism.

We have here the date of this act of love: it was before the foundation of the world; not only before God’s people had a being, but before the world had a beginning; for they were chosen in the counsel of God from all eternity.

In what way were they chosen if they didn’t even exist? Why does this make more reasonable understanding for you than to say that the Word was chosen before the world was created, to be the Son, who would eventually die for every sin committed, to make it possible that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life?

It magnifies these blessings to a high degree that they are the products of eternal counsel. The alms which you give to beggars at your doors proceed from a sudden resolve; but the provision which a parent makes for his children is the result of many thoughts, and is put into his last will and testament with a great deal of solemnity. And, as this magnifies divine love, so it secures the blessings to God’s elect; for the purpose of God according to election shall stand. He acts in pursuance of his eternal purpose in bestowing spiritual blessings upon his people. He hath blessed us  according as he hath chosen us in him, in Christ the great head of the election, who is emphatically called God’s elect, his chosen; and in the chosen Redeemer an eye of favour was cast upon them.

And why wouldn’t this child be not humans but the Son that existed with him from the beginning as the Word? We are chosen in him but if we are not in him, that is our fault, not God’s. He made it possible to be in Christ by belief and works of faith.

Observe here one great end and design of this choice: chosen-that we should be holy; not because he foresaw they would be holy, but because he determined to make them so. All who are chosen to happiness as the end are chosen to holiness as the means.

Oh, so now holiness is the means by which those chosen were to be saved. Sounds like works but without the responsibility. Cool, so you know you are NOT chosen because you just plain don’t care about being holy, is that it? Party hearty for tomorrow we die. Or lie around hoping the mood will be wrapped around you and you will morph into a holy man in your sleep? Sick doctrine you have there. Who was it that dreamed this up?

Their sanctification, as well as their salvation, is the result of the counsels of divine love. And without blame before him â€â€that their holiness might not be merely external and in outward appearance, so as to prevent blame from men, but internal and real, and what God himself, who looketh at the heart, will account such, such holiness as proceeds from love to God and to our fellow-creatures, this charity being the principle of all true holiness.

Looketh? I overlookethed the spelling of favour but now I knoweth he has his spell checker set to 1600’s English. At least he sees there is a problem to account for true holiness. How he can say that an evil man who is made to look holy from the inside out is a man of true holiness and not just the appearance of holiness, is beyond me. This is not wisdom but foolishness with the outward and inward appearance of wisdom. It looks good and sounds good, but it has no meaning or soul to it. Only a collection of words to explain away the justified fears of man.

The original word signifies such an innocence as no man can carp at; and therefore some understand it of that perfect holiness which the saints shall attain in the life to come, which will be eminently before God, they being in his immediate presence for ever.

Carp at? The fish, the fruit or the finding fault? If the fish or the fruit, it rots but as for finding fault, I have no problem doing so. Oh I see, so we can’t even look at these perfect saints and find fault with them since they are going to be rotting until they die. Interesting way to take the pressure off. Clever. Deviously so. Who did you say dreamed this plan up?

Here is also the rule and the fontal cause of God’s election: it is according to the good pleasure of his will (v. 5), not for the sake of any thing in them foreseen, but because it was his sovereign will, and a thing highly pleasing to him.

Yes, God is such a kidder. He does so like to amuse himself by these little games he plays where everyone can only hope they are chosen. I bet he’s up there right now laughing at those who are trying to be faithfully following his Son to no avail. Alas, they are not chosen but God gets a “hoot†out of it. Pretty sick, your god.

It is according to the purpose, the fixed and unalterable will, of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will (v. 11), who powerfully accomplishes whatever concerns his elect, as he has wisely and freely fore-ordained and decreed, the last and great end and design of all which is his own glory: To the praise of the glory of his grace (v. 6), that we should be to the praise of his glory (v. 12), that is, that we should live and behave ourselves in such a manner that his rich grace might be magnified, and appear glorious, and worthy of the highest praise.

There’s that appearance of holiness again. What do we call it when something appears to be what it is not? A deception? A ruse? A cunningly devised fable? A lie? And who is the father of lies?

All is of God, and from him, and through him, and therefore all must be to him, and centre in his praise. Note, The glory of God is his own end, and it should be ours in all that we do."

Yup, bang it on home, in case anyone might have gotten any ideas that they might have any responsibility in this. He gets all the praise, provided there is any for such an evil display of cruel partiality and unfairness.

 

[Bubba]

Unred typo,

When I have time at work or when I have a moment at home in the midst of very busy household (6 children from 3 to 22, 4 with special needs) I write a response. Remember this forum is but a very superficial stab at expressing views to people you do not know personally, who often do not even have their real names listed. Thus spending a lot of time putting together a response when I search and peck keys with two fingers, "cutting and pasting" doesn't seem so bad. I purposely chose a commentary from a 16th century individual (Matthew Henry) who is more middle of the road in regards to God's election of individuals, yet still is able to let Scripture be true in respect to Ephesians 1. I certainly, could of quoted more Calvinistic choices. Ephesians 1:11alone should cause your theological stance to crumble, unless you just rationalize it away with Scriptures that are "works" related, that one can not accomplish without God's Spirit indwelling them. The bottom line, is from what I have read so far from you, you take a very rigid view that I would classify as Pelagian, which is definitely a minority view in Christendom, which some would even say is heretical.
Bubba

 

[unred typo]

Bubba wrote:
When I have time at work or when I have a moment at home in the midst of very busy household (6 children from 3 to 22, 4 with special needs) I write a response. Remember this forum is but a very superficial stab at expressing views to people you do not know personally, who often do not even have their real names listed. Thus spending a lot of time putting together a response when I search and peck keys with two fingers, "cutting and pasting" doesn't seem so bad.

All the more reason to not let someone else tell you what to believe. You have 6 children that you are responsible to raise in the fear and admonition of the Lord. Get it right and don’t look to anyone but the Lord to show you what that is, not Matthew Henry, not John Calvin, not your minister, not even me. You have no need that any man teach you, but you have need that God teach you. Throw out all that junk and start over with just what God tells you is truth. If you don’t have time for anything else, take time for this. Give up TV or sleeping or reading on here or Wednesday night Bible study. It will be worth it.

Bubba wrote:I purposely chose a commentary from a 16th century individual (Matthew Henry) who is more middle of the road in regards to God's election of individuals, yet still is able to let Scripture be true in respect to Ephesians 1. I certainly, could of quoted more Calvinistic choices. Ephesians 1:11alone should cause your theological stance to crumble, unless you just rationalize it away with Scriptures that are "works" related, that one can not accomplish without God's Spirit indwelling them.

That’s just my point. Ephesians 1:11 is not alone. You can’t isolate it from the rest of the Bible, give it another meaning and slap it down into a new gospel and worship it as truth.

Look at it. How does Ephesians 1:11 take away free will anyway? I have no problem with God working in my life. I have no problem with the US government working in my life, and they take away more free will than God does. The government predestines me to their various laws and whims and works all things to the counsel of their will for me, but I am still marginally free to choose my own destiny. The same is true of God’s predestination. I am still free to decide to follow Christ or reject him, no matter how much God predestined all those in Christ to be made holy by the blood of Christ and to obtain an inheritance if they continue in him.

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him :

Notice it says we are predestinated according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his own will and we know what this purpose of God is, don’t we? John 3:16. Whosoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. Now can you believe in Christ and not accept what he says as truth???

Bubba wrote:
The bottom line, is from what I have read so far from you, you take a very rigid view that I would classify as Pelagian, which is definitely a minority view in Christendom, which some would even say is heretical.
Bubba

I don’t care what you classify my beliefs as. I don’t care if I’m the only one who believes them. I care that it is the truth or not.

 

[Bubba]

Unred Typo,
The reason I like to visit forums like this is to read some of the arguments individuals have regarding doctrinal positions from the existence of hell to the Deity of Christ, which have been debated since the first advent of Christ. I read more then I post, for a number of reasons, one of which is because I do not type fast. Many a post I start typing on I loose in cyberspace due to the amount of time it takes me to respond to people. What I usually do is copy and paste a persons writing to my wordpad and then answer, copy and paste again my reply. Trust me when I say that I haven't come to my stance on the Sovereignty of God lightly. It came from reading my Bible everyday, without the help of a theologian dead or alive.I readily believe the fact that I enjoy reading God's Word everyday is a gift from Him.
In respect to freewill, I have tried to show that no one has free will, we are all influence by where we are living, who we were born to, what we were taught and etc.Yes, we make decisions each wakeful minute and God nonetheless uses these decisions in His sovereignty (see Habakkuk chapter 1 where God raises up the Chaldeians against Judah, though their very actions came from their nature, yet God used them for His purposes) of the outcome of this earth; thus Ephesians 1:11. In the spiritual realm, we are dead in our sins, and God has to do a supernatural happening in us or we would never choose Him and I believe Scripture is clear in this and I have read your side and find it lacking. The purpose of God's will (which is for His own pleasure) is to have a people in every age to give glory to Him. He does this by giving those who are to be His people a new heart (Ezekial 36:21-30). As Paul stated in Romans 2:28-29, "for he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God". Romans 8:29-30, we have the scenario that brought on what Paul wrote in verses 14 and 15 of Romans chapter 9, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son... Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified". I have been told that the word "foreknow" is of a intimate nature, liken to Adam and Eve and the union they had as man and wife. Yes, I know you will find fault with what I have written, yet I am convinced that the whole of Scripture supports God sovereignty in all things, especially our salvation.
Bubba

 

[unred typo]

I understand the time restraints we all have in writing to these boards. That’s one reason I find it frustrating to have to write a reply to a cut and paste as long as my arm that someone just pops on there rather than write a real, actual thought of their own. I could just reply with another cut and paste, I suppose. Then it wouldn’t be a discussion but a battle of web pages. :roll:

How about just answering a couple simple sentences? We’ll keep it short and sweet.
You say you “have been told that the word "foreknow" is of a intimate nature, likenened to Adam and Eve and the union they had as man and wife.†Great, but what does that mean exactly? Did God know you personally before you were created? If this was a personal union, what do you recall personally from it? You know your spouse, I presume. Does this person exist? Did you know them before they were born? How is it even possible that God knew you before he created you?

Do you see now that rendering of that verse is impossible and can only refer to foreknowing Christ and preordaining those who would come to know Christ in the future to these promises made?