No unred. You have to see what Paul is talking about. He says he was commissioned by God to do his will, to preach the gospel, and woe would befall him if he didn't. Knowing the fear of God, therefore, he says the preaching of the gospel is a necessity, meaning it's not something he can boast that he is doing his own will. Not preaching the gospel would be unthinkable. God would destroy him. So preaching the gospel doesn't give him any grounds to boast. He is only doing the rational thing any man would do if God gave him a commission. However Paul is boasting on the grounds that he makes the gospel free of charge. He is not exercising his right to get his living from the preaching and he says, he would rather die than be deprived of his grounds for boasting. So in depriving himself of any material benefit, he has a reward; an imperishable wreath, a runner's prize, a first place share in the gospel's blessings.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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Free will or no free will?
- Thread starter Heidi
- Start date
No unred. You have to see what Paul is talking about. He says he was commissioned by God to do his will, to preach the gospel, and woe would befall him if he didn't. Knowing the fear of God, therefore, he says the preaching of the gospel is a necessity, meaning it's not something he can boast that he is doing his own will. Not preaching the gospel would be unthinkable. God would destroy him. So preaching the gospel doesn't give him any grounds to boast. He is only doing the rational thing any man would do if God gave him a commission. However Paul is boasting on the grounds that he makes the gospel free of charge. He is not exercising his right to get his living from the preaching and he says, he would rather die than be deprived of his grounds for boasting. So in depriving himself of any material benefit, he has a reward; an imperishable wreath, a runner's prize, a first place share in the gospel's blessings.
Unred Typo
Yes, God did know me personally before I was created. Being God and having omniscience, He is able to love the person I would be before the beginning of time. Though I do not have the ability to reciprocate the love relationship that began before the earth was formed, prior to my creation and conversion, I do now. My wife and I have adopted five children; four of the five were infants at their adoption. We chose them, just like God chose us (Ephesians 1:5-6) and they had nothing what so ever to do with the decision, but they do now. If my wife and I had the ability to look into the future, like God, before we actually adopted our children, we could know our to be children personally, before they were created.
Bubba
Yes, God did know me personally before I was created. Being God and having omniscience, He is able to love the person I would be before the beginning of time. Though I do not have the ability to reciprocate the love relationship that began before the earth was formed, prior to my creation and conversion, I do now. My wife and I have adopted five children; four of the five were infants at their adoption. We chose them, just like God chose us (Ephesians 1:5-6) and they had nothing what so ever to do with the decision, but they do now. If my wife and I had the ability to look into the future, like God, before we actually adopted our children, we could know our to be children personally, before they were created.
Bubba
U
unred typo
Guest
Here is another popular misconception in your theology that keeps you from a proper understanding of the truth. God does not “look into the future.†The future is not a place or a thing that exists. It’s future, that’s why it’s called the future. It hasn’t happened yet. Barring sci-fi scripts, there is no parallel universes and time warp worm holes that God passes through to check out the future. That’s all very entertaining and fun but it’s not reality. If you are going to speculate on such wierdities, I’m going to ask for scriptural proof. JFYI, I think I’ve seen them all. Just like big pink piggies, you can put them on an airplane but they really don’t fly.
Actually, your adoption situation reminds me of an analogy. ( o, great… we hate those )
You can see this, trust me. This is an example. Please don’t quibble about actual details. You predestined your adopted ones to take your name, live in your house, eat your food, be your child. You had a moral code of conduct that you live by that you would require them to obey. You made a room for the child in your home. You could have designated that you wanted a black child or a white child or whatever. You could have made specifications as to the age and sex of the child that you would call your own. You could do all that without personally knowing the actual child that you would be given. They were predestinated to be adopted into your home and take your name, foreordained to be living according to the rules of your household, and chosen according to sex and age preferences and elected by nationality before the child was even born or possibly years before your application to adopt was even processed.
You see? Being predestined, ordained, chosen, elected and adopted is not something that has to be done by personally knowing the actual person or knowing the future. Those words do not specify an individual. Is your adopted child less loved because you didn’t personally hand pick the egg and sperm that would become that little individual? No, they were set apart from all other children when they became yours personally, even though all the predestination and elections and choosing was done before they existed.
Now you have raised another issue about adoption. The person adopted has no choice in the adoption process. True. But just as you could have designated the sex and nationality, God has designated that his adopted children will be those that follow Christ and walk according to his ways. Unlike babies, we can choose of our own free will to do those things that will make us adoptable to God.
These are analogies and they always get messed up when you take them beyond the point where the writer intended them to be used to illustrate. That’s why seeing, you do not perceive and hearing you don’t understand. You miss the point and go off on a tangent. It’s simple, not sci-fi, not dispensations, not a lot of man made doctrines that clog the truth and keep it from flowing into your heart and mind. Be like a child. Look at what Jesus said in simplicity and stop trying to overwork it in your brain.
If God gave you the spirit to choose him then what are you boasting about? You chose Life? 'Hmm...Life or destruction, life or destruction. Let's see. I think I will choose life'. Good choice Einstein!
Right. As if a fig tree can choose what it will bear and when. Can a fig tree bear apples? Nope. Can it bear thorns? Nope. Does it decide what fruit it will bear or how much or how good it will be or when it will bear or whether worms will eat the fruit? Can it decide to live without water or can it pull up it's roots and say, 'I don't need soil'? You can talk about freewill all you want but if you don't bear good fruit, God will cut you down. You have a choice. Life or death. Your choice. Do you want to be cut down? The answer should be obvious. So what's the point of the discussion? Are you trying to tell us and God that you can choose to be cut down? Well not really. God will cut you down whether you want it or not. Can you choose to bear good fruit? Not really. Not if the worms get to you. Not if you insist that you can. Or do you just want to let God know that you can deny him. Ok. Point taken. You have given God fair warning.
Besides that, what's the point? Or do you just want to let us know that you can deny God and be destroyed? Ok You just want to let God know that you can. Ok Hold still. We'll put a net over you. You bear watching.
Unred Typo,
God would not be much of a God if He did not know what the future held and who was doing what in that future, fortunately that is not the case.
You wrote: "That’s all very entertaining and fun but it’s not reality. If you are going to speculate on such wierdities, I’m going to ask for scriptural proof."
These verses in Isaiah 46:9-10, speak of God knowing the end from the beginning and things that were decided in the past that have not happen yet.
Then you have verses speaking to the elect like Ephesians 1:3-11 directed at the elect. Less you think it is only a plan or possibility that is decided for people in general, you have Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 speaking to individuals and David writing from his own understanding in Psalms 139:1-18 (special emphasis on verse 16).
The other side of the coin would be those who are not elect left in their sins found in Proverbs 16:4,1 Peter 2:8, Revelation 13:9 and 17:9.
If you decide to write back and counter, which I am sure you will, I probably will not respond. I actually have some personal family issues with my ailing mom, that must take precedence.
Bubba
God would not be much of a God if He did not know what the future held and who was doing what in that future, fortunately that is not the case.
You wrote: "That’s all very entertaining and fun but it’s not reality. If you are going to speculate on such wierdities, I’m going to ask for scriptural proof."
These verses in Isaiah 46:9-10, speak of God knowing the end from the beginning and things that were decided in the past that have not happen yet.
Then you have verses speaking to the elect like Ephesians 1:3-11 directed at the elect. Less you think it is only a plan or possibility that is decided for people in general, you have Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 speaking to individuals and David writing from his own understanding in Psalms 139:1-18 (special emphasis on verse 16).
The other side of the coin would be those who are not elect left in their sins found in Proverbs 16:4,1 Peter 2:8, Revelation 13:9 and 17:9.
If you decide to write back and counter, which I am sure you will, I probably will not respond. I actually have some personal family issues with my ailing mom, that must take precedence.
Bubba
U
unred typo
Guest
We have been given the right and the ability to choose. That’s free will. Let me state the obvious. No one can force you to choose or it wouldn’t be choosing , would it? Free will does not mean ‘choosing wisely,’ it just means the ability to choose without being forced. You can choose to be stupid if you want.
The whole point of my premise is that man has a choice to obey God or obey Satan. We make ourselves slaves to our own sin. This theme is repeated throughout scripture. You admit it; “You have a choice†and deny it in the next breath; “Can you choose to bear good fruit? Not really.†A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. We can choose to bear good fruit by choosing to follow Christ. It’s that simple. Believe it.
I don’t want to do anything here but explain that having free will is nothing short of God giving us the option to choose between following Christ or not following Christ. If we choose to follow Christ, he will help us do that and reward us with eternal life and other good things in the next life and his presence in this life. If we lack the faith to do that, and with an evil heart of unbelief, choose to wallow in our sin, God will punish us both now and eternally.
Then God would have lied about what he has promised to them that love him and failed to do what he has solemnly vowed to reward to those who choose of their own free will to follow Christ. I don’t think he will do that. Do you?
I am not holding God accountable to his word, he is declaring that he can be trusted to honor it and I believe him. Does this mean that we are earning eternal life by our good works? Not unless they are perfect and we have never sinned. So since all have sinned, we are dependant on his blood, God’s gift to those who repent. His blood blots out our sin so our works are accepted as perfect and no one can boast they have paid for their sin with their own righteousness and that God owes them eternal life. Do you get it yet? I hope so because I am tired of explaining it over and over. You have free will. I guess you can choose to be stupid if you want to. :-D
U
unred typo
Guest
God knows everything there is to know. The future is unknown because there is nothing to know. It hasn’t happened yet. The future is not a place or a thing or anything but a plan that can be altered as the situation changes. The future has not happened, so it is not recorded yet. It is NOTHING. God is not deficient in his knowledge. He knows all the knowledge and has at his disposal all knowledge of all things living and dead, all thoughts and all actions and all plans of all creatures. He has the sum total of all truth. He knows the number of hairs on your head at every moment of every minute of time. He even knows how many are ready to fall and how long before they will, given the present conditions. He is omniscient. He knows the plans he has for the future but there is no reason for him to know what doesn’t exist.
God is in ultimate control since he is all powerful and omnipotent. He can deal with a zillion details at once and he has a myriad of angels to carry out whatever he wants them to do that he doesn’t want to deal with by any other means. His resources are infinite and inexhaustible. He deals with the future on a moment by moment basis in perfect knowledge of all things. What more could you ask of a God?
Isaiah 46:9-10
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
This is God saying exactly what I said about him. He knows his plans for the future and will do them, in due time according to the present situation, as he deems necessary.
Ephesians 1:3-11
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,( etc. )
We talked about this. These verses are God’s plans for those who choose to follow Christ. You either didn’t read what I wrote or you have chosen not to accept it. In that case, it’s your choice. You have free will to accept or reject any ideas, true or false.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 does nothing to strengthen you case against free will nor God’s knowledge of the future. Paul says here:
But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
What beginning are we talking about here? The beginning of their belief in the truth of Christ. Are you so bent on believing this man made doctrine that you will use any shred of scripture to back it up? Even if we were to assume it is the beginning of creation, it is their belief in Christ that makes them part of him who was chosen from the foundation of the world. The Word was with God in the beginning of the creation, not any man or created being. Christ was chosen, not you.
If you believe in Christ, you become part of the body of Christ and as such, chosen in Christ from the foundation of the world. You weren’t there. You didn’t exist and neither did these “brethren beloved of the Lord.â€Â
Psalms 139:1-18 (special emphasis on verse 16)
16Your eyes did see my substance, yet being imperfect; and in your book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
God had a plan for David’s human body, as he does for all of us. We know it today as a DNA code. He was built according to those specifications. These plans are not proof of God knowing the future, which doesn’t exist, BTW, nor do they help your attempts to demolish the free will concept the Bible clearly implies and requires for any common sense reading.
Proverbs 16:4
4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
This merely states that just because a person might become as wicked as his parents, God still creates them. Their choice to follow their parents is strictly up to them. Even the most wicked can change and turn from their wicked ways and repent. While they remain wicked, however, God can use them in their evil days as examples to turn others to the truth.
1 Peter 2:8
8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
Who are appointed to stumble? Those who are disobedient. Pretty self explanatory and no help to your fallacy.
Revelation 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
Most people have two but they choose not to listen. This is proof of free will, not the lack of it. God says, “Let him hearâ€Â, not let him be deaf. This shows the universality of the call to hear. If you have an ear, God wants you to listen.
Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sits.
Huh? I presume you mean verse 8:
8The beast that you saw was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
The book of life is where the names of all people born since the beginning of the creation of man are written. When you are born, your name is written in the book of life. When you sin willfully after you have the knowledge of the truth, your name is blotted out. Don’t despair! When you trust in Christ and follow the way to life, you are written in his book, become ‘in Christ’ and whosoever believes in him, shall never perish but have eternal life.
Your name is not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world though. That makes no sense at all. God is from everlasting, not man. The book of life was begun from the creation of man, not your name in it. It is the book that your name is written in from the moment you were conceived, right there a few billion names under Adam. It’s like a registry of all people born from the foundation of the world until today.
There. I hope that explains away the confusion you have been taught over this issue. If not, I can try again. Sorry to hear of your hardship with your ailing Mom. Please do take your time responding. Families come first.
Do you know the story of the prodigal son? He was a son when he left his father's house. Do you remember when you left your Father's house? The son went out into the world. When did you go out into the world unred? Was it when you were born? The son came to his senses. He remembered his father's house. When did you come to your senses? Do you remember your Father? Do you know the way back to your Father's house? If you're on the right path, then the Father will see you from afar and he will come out and embrace you and put a ring on your finger.
This is not a matter of chance. When God creates things he does it for himself for his purpose. If God put a ring on your finger, it is because he knows you and you know him. When I talk to you, am I talking to your body? No. I'm talking to your spirit. The body can choose things but the spirit recognizes things; like a voice, the truth, etc. The devil doesn't plant things to make people choose God. Obviously if God doesn't plant it, you can't choose it. If we speak the truth then the truth is in us. It was put there by God.
U
unred typo
Guest
This is not a matter of chance. When God creates things he does it for himself for his purpose. If God put a ring on your finger, it is because he knows you and you know him. When I talk to you, am I talking to your body? No. I'm talking to your spirit. The body can choose things but the spirit recognizes things; like a voice, the truth, etc. The devil doesn't plant things to make people choose God. Obviously if God doesn't plant it, you can't choose it. If we speak the truth then the truth is in us. It was put there by God.[/quote:ef0ff]
Since this thread is about free will, I’m assuming you are saying that God knew us or our spirit in eternity past and has imposed his will on us? Please clarify what you’re getting at.
I’m trying to process what you said. The body can choose things? The body has desires and hungers and cravings, some are good and some are evil. We are not just human flesh but we have a will that is free to choose which of our fleshly desires we will try to satisfy and which ones we will try to suppress. It’s a lot like learning to drive a car. We are in the driver’s seat as far as our body goes. Most of us are still learning to drive and the instructor is over there beside us giving us instructions as to how to control the body. When we get our act together and have reasonable control, we get to drive on our own. Where is the instructor now? He’s in us. We hear his voice as we drive along repeating all those instructions and keeping us in control of our bodies. Eventually driving is a natural thing and we do it almost without thinking, like second nature. Unfortunately, most of us never get to this point of control over the flesh and surrender to God.
Since this thread is about free will, I’m assuming you are saying that God knew us or our spirit in eternity past and has imposed his will on us? Please clarify what you’re getting at.
I’m trying to process what you said. The body can choose things? The body has desires and hungers and cravings, some are good and some are evil. We are not just human flesh but we have a will that is free to choose which of our fleshly desires we will try to satisfy and which ones we will try to suppress. It’s a lot like learning to drive a car. We are in the driver’s seat as far as our body goes. Most of us are still learning to drive and the instructor is over there beside us giving us instructions as to how to control the body. When we get our act together and have reasonable control, we get to drive on our own. Where is the instructor now? He’s in us. We hear his voice as we drive along repeating all those instructions and keeping us in control of our bodies. Eventually driving is a natural thing and we do it almost without thinking, like second nature. Unfortunately, most of us never get to this point of control over the flesh and surrender to God.[/quote]
Without the indwelling Holy Spirit, all man has is a sinful nature. He can therefore only respond out of his sinful nature. That's why Jesus said; "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."
Paul explains this beautifully in Romans 7:13-25. Without the indwelling Holy Spirit, we are in bondage to sin and cannot free ourselves. We therefore cannot choose God as 1 Corinthians 2:14 and 2 Corinthians 4:4 explain. So read those verses again and again until you believe them so you will see why man does not have free will. He just thinks he does. "In his heart, a man plans his course. But the Lord determines his steps."
;-)
I’m trying to process what you said. The body can choose things? The body has desires and hungers and cravings, some are good and some are evil. We are not just human flesh but we have a will that is free to choose which of our fleshly desires we will try to satisfy and which ones we will try to suppress. It’s a lot like learning to drive a car. We are in the driver’s seat as far as our body goes. Most of us are still learning to drive and the instructor is over there beside us giving us instructions as to how to control the body. When we get our act together and have reasonable control, we get to drive on our own. Where is the instructor now? He’s in us. We hear his voice as we drive along repeating all those instructions and keeping us in control of our bodies. Eventually driving is a natural thing and we do it almost without thinking, like second nature. Unfortunately, most of us never get to this point of control over the flesh and surrender to God.[/quote]
Without the indwelling Holy Spirit, all man has is a sinful nature. He can therefore only respond out of his sinful nature. That's why Jesus said; "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."
Paul explains this beautifully in Romans 7:13-25. Without the indwelling Holy Spirit, we are in bondage to sin and cannot free ourselves. We therefore cannot choose God as 1 Corinthians 2:14 and 2 Corinthians 4:4 explain. So read those verses again and again until you believe them so you will see why man does not have free will. He just thinks he does. "In his heart, a man plans his course. But the Lord determines his steps."
;-)
U
unred typo
Guest
Heidi said:
Please fix your post. You forgot the quote text at the top of my quote. I ‘m sure you don’t want my writing to be mistaken for yours. Although that would be an easy way to change your position. :wink:
Man has a sinful nature but he can choose not to follow those base instincts of his flesh. By choosing to follow Christ and do good, he can free himself from the bondage of sin. You are servants of whom you choose to obey.
No. I'm saying the son was a son before he left his father's house. He left his father's house and he went out into the world where he became lost. So the parable is about our leaving our Father's house. When we were with our Father, we were sons living in his house. When we left our Father's house to go out into the world, we entered a physical body. When we heard the gospel, we came to our senses. At this point we returned to our Father's house; a spiritual abode. Our spirit was changed into a spiritual body by the Word of God. In other words, his Word created a spiritual body of wisdom and knowledge and understanding. This is the living body which we occupy. We literally occupy the light, the wisdom of God, Jesus Christ. Now, when I say 'we' or 'you' or 'I', I'm not talking to or about the physical body which is getting old and wasting away. I'm talking to the spiritual man. Who. A son. A name. A word. A word in the Word. I know you don't like seeing the spiritual things. You prefer the seen things. But it doesn't matter. You are 'who'. This has nothing to do with free will or being forced to do anything. God did everything for you, his son. Did Jesus tell you God might be your Father? Did he say he will be your Father if you believe? No. He said, he is your Father. Wake up unred! Get some understanding. This doesn't come from a position of weakness where it depends on your will but from strength of faith.
U
unred typo
Guest
No. I'm saying the son was a son before he left his father's house. He left his father's house and he went out into the world where he became lost. So the parable is about our leaving our Father's house. When we were with our Father, we were sons living in his house. When we left our Father's house to go out into the world, we entered a physical body. When we heard the gospel, we came to our senses. At this point we returned to our Father's house; a spiritual abode. Our spirit was changed into a spiritual body by the Word of God. In other words, his Word created a spiritual body of wisdom and knowledge and understanding. This is the living body which we occupy. We literally occupy the light, the wisdom of God, Jesus Christ. Now, when I say 'we' or 'you' or 'I', I'm not talking to or about the physical body which is getting old and wasting away. I'm talking to the spiritual man. Who. A son. A name. A word. A word in the Word. I know you don't like seeing the spiritual things. You prefer the seen things. But it doesn't matter. You are 'who'. This has nothing to do with free will or being forced to do anything. God did everything for you, his son. Did Jesus tell you God might be your Father? Did he say he will be your Father if you believe? No. He said, he is your Father. Wake up unred! Get some understanding. This is not a position of weakness but of strength.[/quote:551ee]
Oddly enough, I do understand what you’re saying, I just don’t believe that is the case that the Bible is putting out. There is no suggestion that we were once in heaven before we were born physically here on earth. Where do you get this notion, other than this parable that has a perfectly reasonable explanation in those who demand to have their future inheritance from God right here in this life and not want to wait after their death to go enjoy the pleasures that await the faithful in Christ? Do you think that everyone was in this unborn sonship state of being before they were born or just a few elite ones who are better than the ordinary humans born of flesh and blood? Before I unravel your royal covering, I would like some clarification as to what this fabric is made of. :wink:
D
Diolectic
Guest
Man has free will; however, while one may will to do good, he is unable to do the good that he wants to do. Rom 7:19 I don't do the good that I actually want to do, but I do the evil that don't want to do.
For anyone without faith may will to do good or evil, for the natural man can not until he chooses to first have faith in Christ for the ability. Only until man chooses to put his faith in Christ he will stay a slave of sin.
The will is crippled in doing any good until the will is in Christ. After our will is to be in Christ (which is to have faith) we, then, will have a changed life, a new view on life, and a new motive for everything that you do. In these new aspects of your life will become actions or works(fruit) that give a testimony of Christ in you.
Yes, man can have a will to do both good and evil from birth regardless, however as I have shown, forgive me for repeating myself, the will is crippled in doing any good because of the flesh. Only untill the will is in Christ is there any ability to do good, and the only good is in faith and walking after the spirit.
The bottom line is, man wills to do good but is incapable untill he chooses to submit to God.
There is no boast is choosing, what man is there who put himself in bankruptcy, would boast about choosing to let another pay his debt? "Hey, I have something to boast about, I let this man pay my debt."
Furthermore, being given to while in need is very humbling.
Election is like this:
I know my wife so well that I make reservations to "Olive Garden" before I give her a choice to choose all the restaurants in the state.
She has all the chances to choose any restaurant she wills.
However, She chooses "Olive Garden" that was already pre-chosen by me with reservations.
Another example:
I invite all the people in my town to "Olive Garden", but I only make reservations for those who I know that will come.
While every one has an invitation and has equal chance to be with me and all have a choice to come or not, only those who I know will choose to come are reserved to sit at my table.
So as God elects those who He foreknows will choose.
For anyone without faith may will to do good or evil, for the natural man can not until he chooses to first have faith in Christ for the ability. Only until man chooses to put his faith in Christ he will stay a slave of sin.
The will is crippled in doing any good until the will is in Christ. After our will is to be in Christ (which is to have faith) we, then, will have a changed life, a new view on life, and a new motive for everything that you do. In these new aspects of your life will become actions or works(fruit) that give a testimony of Christ in you.
Yes, man can have a will to do both good and evil from birth regardless, however as I have shown, forgive me for repeating myself, the will is crippled in doing any good because of the flesh. Only untill the will is in Christ is there any ability to do good, and the only good is in faith and walking after the spirit.
The bottom line is, man wills to do good but is incapable untill he chooses to submit to God.
There is no boast is choosing, what man is there who put himself in bankruptcy, would boast about choosing to let another pay his debt? "Hey, I have something to boast about, I let this man pay my debt."
Furthermore, being given to while in need is very humbling.
Election is like this:
I know my wife so well that I make reservations to "Olive Garden" before I give her a choice to choose all the restaurants in the state.
She has all the chances to choose any restaurant she wills.
However, She chooses "Olive Garden" that was already pre-chosen by me with reservations.
Another example:
I invite all the people in my town to "Olive Garden", but I only make reservations for those who I know that will come.
While every one has an invitation and has equal chance to be with me and all have a choice to come or not, only those who I know will choose to come are reserved to sit at my table.
So as God elects those who He foreknows will choose.
Drew
Member
I think there are problems with this view. First, we know from the data of life experience that unredeemed people do indeed "do good". I know that some will counter that though their deeds seem good, the underlying motive is not. I think this is a bit of a stretch but I will leave this objection for the present.Diolectic said:
I think that the quoted text (Romans 7:19) is not about the personal experience of the "natural man" who is outside of Christ, but rather describes the state of national Israel under Torah as specifically seen from a Christian perspective. I must dutifully acknowledge that what I will present in the following is largely inspired by the position of British theologian NT Wright.
I submit that we can immediately challenge the claim that "the will is crippled in doing any good until the will is in Christ" by referring to Paul's own experiences as expressed in Phillipians 3:
"as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless"
I will be interested to see if anyone tries to argue that being "blameless according to the Law" does not do the job of overturning the claim that Paul, in his pre-Christian days, was "crippled in doing any good". To use the expression so popular today: "Good luck with that".
I can expect that one objection to my assertion that Romans 7:19 is not about the experience of pre-Christian individuals is this: Why does Paul use the first person, using the term "I" throughout this passage? I understand this objection, but I think it can be countered by appealing to Paul's strong empathy for, and therefore identification with, his fellow Jews. Note that in Romans 11:14, he writes:
"if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them"
I realize that the above is not that strong of a positive case for the position I am claiming. I do think that the Phillipians 3 argument does undermine the claim that unregenerate persons cannot do any of the good that they will. Paul describes how, in his pre-Christian days, he was blameless in terms of the law.
In any event, I think that there are other reasons to see Romans 7 as being descriptive of the state of national Israel and not, as it is usually is seen, as an insight into the nature of individual experience. One of these is the general claim that Romans in general is rife with evidence that Paul is explaining how God has been faithful to his covenant with Israel and how the work of Jesus does not violate that covenant. When one approaches Romans,as most do, as an exposition of "systematic theology" and / or as presenting a theology of the sinful state of individual persons (pre-salvation), one has the challenging task of explaining away all these references to the Jews as being a series of "tangents", not connected with the "theology" being presented.
Another thing in this regard. I find the following suggestion compelling - one of the reasons why God gave the law to Israel was to draw out sin from the world and accumulate it on Israel after which it could be passed onto the faithful shoulders of Jesus to bear. To the extent that this view is otherwise credible, the material in Romans 7, including verse 19, can be seen as describing the awful destiny of a national Israel that is elected by God to bear the sin of the world. In other words, for the world's sin to be concentrated on Israel, Israel as a nation must indeed experience the following (my annotations of course):
"For the good that I (Israel) want, I (Israel) do not do, but I (Israel) practice the very evil that I (Israel) do not want"
In the purposes of God, national Israel is acting out the pattern of the cross - getting sin of the world heaped on her so that Jesus can then deal with it. How else can God remain faithful to his covenant promise to use Israel to undo the sin problem?
D
Diolectic
Guest
Need more proof to substiate this calim.Drew said:
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.Drew said:
The only righteousness from the Law would be from works of the Law. However, this is not the "good" the we are talking about.
Gal 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
Hebrews 13:16 But to do good and to share forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
1Peter 3:11 Let him turn away from evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and pursue it.
Doing "good " is not following the Commandments.
The "good" would be more of good works from a pure conscience.
James 2:15-16 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
1John 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
Good works are thos that benifit others.
Romans 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that you should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.Drew said:
The state of national Israel was/is not dead to the law by the body of Christ. Paul is talking to individuals.
However, the rest of your remarks are great for another thread.
Drew
Member
I agree that more evidence is needed to support the assertion that the Romans 7 text is about the state of national Israel under Torah. I cannot give such evidence now, but hopefully will return to the matter.
Also, I think you are overlooking the positive way in which Jesus re-expressed the "Law". From Matthew 22, we have:
Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' "This is the great and foremost commandment. "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'"On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets".
I do not see how we can avoid the conclusion that Jesus is saying that the "Law and the prophets" is the practical outworking of these 2 principles. In doing this, I think Jesus, perhaps with this specific intention in mind, undercuts the idea that obeying the Law is somehow a merely mechanical "going through the motions" that is not undergirded by the very same principle represented in the quotes you provide.
In addition, at least one of the ten commandments is indeed framed in a positive way:
"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the LORD your God gives you."
I doubt that Paul would disagree with how Jesus characterises the law as he does in Matthew as quoted immediately above. I think that is clear that Jesus (at least in Matt 22 if not elsewhere) is clearly expressing the essence of the Law - not a "new and improved" Law, but the old Law.
And it is this same law in respect to which Paul claims to be blameless.
The Law did not fail because because it was defective or incomplete in the sense of "overlooking" the "doing good for others" concept that you point out. It failed because it was acting on "damaged goods" - fallen man. The solution is not to supplement the Law, but rather to redeem our fallen sin nature. And this is what God has accomplished through Christ.
I do not see your point here. You list quotes that indeed show that doing good works benefits others and seem to imply that this is not what the Commandments are all about. I sense that you are implicitly arguing that the Commandments are a set of "don'ts" and as such do not capture the full sense of what it means to "do good"- namely that to do good, we need to do more than simply "not do bad". I think that this is an incorrect understanding of the nature of the law. It (the law) is not merely a set of rules that need to be supplemented by new teaching as delivered in the New Testament teachings that you list above.Diolectic said:
Also, I think you are overlooking the positive way in which Jesus re-expressed the "Law". From Matthew 22, we have:
Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' "This is the great and foremost commandment. "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'"On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets".
I do not see how we can avoid the conclusion that Jesus is saying that the "Law and the prophets" is the practical outworking of these 2 principles. In doing this, I think Jesus, perhaps with this specific intention in mind, undercuts the idea that obeying the Law is somehow a merely mechanical "going through the motions" that is not undergirded by the very same principle represented in the quotes you provide.
In addition, at least one of the ten commandments is indeed framed in a positive way:
"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the LORD your God gives you."
I doubt that Paul would disagree with how Jesus characterises the law as he does in Matthew as quoted immediately above. I think that is clear that Jesus (at least in Matt 22 if not elsewhere) is clearly expressing the essence of the Law - not a "new and improved" Law, but the old Law.
And it is this same law in respect to which Paul claims to be blameless.
The Law did not fail because because it was defective or incomplete in the sense of "overlooking" the "doing good for others" concept that you point out. It failed because it was acting on "damaged goods" - fallen man. The solution is not to supplement the Law, but rather to redeem our fallen sin nature. And this is what God has accomplished through Christ.
Drew
Member
You are not really providing a counterargument to what I admit is a somewhat weakly defended claim on part that Paul is speaking about the state of the Jew under Torah and not presenting an "individual" theology. It is precisely my assertion (actually these are the ideas of theologian NT Wright) that the proper interpretation of Romans 7:4 is that the nation of Israel is what Paul is talking about in Romans 7.Diolectic said:
To quote directly from NT Wright:
I think Wright is correct to argue that in 7:7-12 , Paul uses "I" to refer to the nation of Israel as it recapitulates the sin of Adam. I have added comments to the following extract from Romans 7:
Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death [Paul really died in Adam - not in his own individual sin]. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me [***refers to Adam in the garden], and through the commandment put me to death [***Adam's sin produces death for all]. So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin [***Paul talks here about a general property of the law - that it reveals sin], it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
I think that the above text is so obviously theological with all its Adamic references, that there is a compelling case that Paul is not talking about his experience as an individual, but is rather making a bigger case - one about the nation of Israel.
Part of the case to defend this further is Paul's focus on the Jews in Roman 9-11. People who argue that Romans is about a theology about sin, grace, election etc. at the level of the individual will have a difficult time explaining such texts as Romans 9:1-5:
"I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen."
D
Diolectic
Guest
The matter of Romans 7 being interped as the state of the Jew under Torah and not presenting an "individual" theology, does not fit into the context with chapt.s 1-6.
Only until Chat. 9 does Paul come to this point of the state of the Jew under Torah.
Only until Chat. 9 does Paul come to this point of the state of the Jew under Torah.