Free will or no free will?

[francisdesales]

Wow - this has been going a while.

How much free will does a dead man have?

Blessings

Being spiritually dead is not equated to being physically dead...

Read the story of the Prodigal Son. The Father called the Son "dead" twice" - yet he seemed to have free will and did return home. The context of Luke 15 clearly is talking about the sinner returning to God. The common mistake is using passages such as Ephesians 1 (we are dead in sin) and comparing apples with oranges by saying we are dead, as in physically dead and have NO ABILITY WHATSOEVER to return to God. Luke 15 proves that is a mistake. The man who is spiritually dead is able, with the grace of God and his free will, to return to God if he so chooses...

...if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he has committed and keep all my statutes and live according to judgment and righteousness, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his rebellions that he has committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him; by his righteousness that he has done he shall live. Do I desire perchance the death of the wicked? said the Lord GOD, Shall he not live if he should leave his ways? Ezekiel 21-23

God desires men to be saved, not to die...spiritually. "Thus says the Lord".

Regards

 

[MarkT]

Elect or predestined for what? What does "elect" mean, in Scriptures? Does it mean predestinted to heaven, or predestined to a vocation in the Church? There is precious little in the bible that says men are predestined to eternal glory no matter what they do once they make a declaration of faith to the Lord.

Elected by whom?, is the question. Are the elect elected by God or by man? Is election a matter of choice on our part or is election a matter of choice on the part of God, according to his will? According to Paul, 'there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them in everyone.' 1 Cor. 12:4 So election is made by God, who gives us the gifts according to his will, for his purpose. The elect are elected by God to receive the gifts he gives them. Paul goes on to say, 'God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, etc.' So again we see men are appointed; chosen by God. The position they hold is determined by God who inspires the gift.

I agree this predestination is not, like you say, simply a matter of declaring your faith. In fact the word, 'predestination' comes from 'destined' or 'destiny' which refers to the end of a person or a thing; what becomes of a person. A 'destiny' is what is predetermined to happen despite all efforts to prevent it. Now predestined would mean 'before they were born', either from the womb or from before being born anew or from the beginning of time. That idea is consistent with the prodigal son who was a son before he left his father's house and went out into the world. The idea that he was already a son, known by his father, loved by his father, etc. before he was born into the physical world, before he came to his senses and remembered his father's house - a spiritual house - is consistent with what Jesus said. He said God is your Father. He didn't say believe it. He said, he is. That's a flat out true statement. And it is consistent with Paul's statement that we are foreknown. So it is simply a matter of finding the lost sheep. The same isn't true of everyone though. The message of the gospel is for all. Our part, as sons, is to preach the gospel to the world so that the world may know his Son; even to the wicked.

Now if a man is persuaded that nothing will ever separate him from God, then that's good. That's the security that comes from God; that's the security that you all should hope to obtain. Don't argue with this man. People can't deny the inner workings of the Spirit just because you want them to. If they have the Spirit; the security of knowing God is working in them, and you don't think they should have it, then it's your theology that we have to examine. Once we take the log out of our own eye, then we can take the speck out of our brother's eye.

Is it your desire to do the devil's work; to snatch away their security? God forbid francis! Leave them alone if you don't know what you are talking about. These are very stressful times we live in.

 

[francisdesales]

Now if a man is persuaded that nothing will ever separate him from God, then that's good. That's the security that comes from God; that's the security that you all should hope to obtain. Don't argue with this man. People can't deny the inner workings of the Spirit just because you want them to. If they have the Spirit; the security of knowing God is working in them, and you don't think they should have it, then it's your theology that we have to examine. Once we take the log out of our own eye, then we can take the speck out of our brother's eye.

I'm sure that the Pharisees had the same "security" that you speak of - and Christ tried to tell them they were wrong. The problem is that you are introducing relativism into the religious realm. We don't "live and let live" when we see people living in error. I do agree that we need to be careful on how we address others, but just because someone declares that they have the "spirit" doesn't mean they actually do. People are not immune from self-delusion.

Is it your desire to do the devil's work; to snatch away their security? God forbid francis! Leave them alone if you don't know what you are talking about. These are very stressful times we live in.

No, it is not my desire to do the devil's work. I am not questioning anyone's personal salvation. I question the theology that leads one to think they are already saved for heaven when the Bible doesn't talk about such things. If I question someone's personal salvation, however, feel free to repost your comments again.

Regards

 

[unred typo]

quote by MarkT:
Elected by whom?, is the question. Are the elect elected by God or by man? Is election a matter of choice on our part or is election a matter of choice on the part of God, according to his will? According to Paul, 'there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them in everyone.' 1 Cor. 12:4 So election is made by God, who gives us the gifts according to his will, for his purpose. The elect are elected by God to receive the gifts he gives them. Paul goes on to say, 'God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, etc.' So again we see men are appointed; chosen by God. The position they hold is determined by God who inspires the gift.

I agree this predestination is not, like you say, simply a matter of declaring your faith. In fact the word, 'predestination' comes from 'destined' or 'destiny' which refers to the end of a person or a thing; what becomes of a person. A 'destiny' is what is predetermined to happen despite all efforts to prevent it. Now predestined would mean 'before they were born', either from the womb or from before being born anew or from the beginning of time. That idea is consistent with the prodigal son who was a son before he left his father's house and went out into the world. The idea that he was already a son, known by his father, loved by his father, etc. before he was born into the physical world, before he came to his senses and remembered his father's house - a spiritual house - is consistent with what Jesus said. He said God is your Father. He didn't say believe it. He said, he is. That's a flat out true statement. And it is consistent with Paul's statement that we are foreknown. So it is simply a matter of finding the lost sheep. The same isn't true of everyone though. The message of the gospel is for all. Our part, as sons, is to preach the gospel to the world so that the world may know his Son; even to the wicked.

Now if a man is persuaded that nothing will ever separate him from God, then that's good. That's the security that comes from God; that's the security that you all should hope to obtain. Don't argue with this man. People can't deny the inner workings of the Spirit just because you want them to. If they have the Spirit; the security of knowing God is working in them, and you don't think they should have it, then it's your theology that we have to examine. Once we take the log out of our own eye, then we can take the speck out of our brother's eye.

Is it your desire to do the devil's work; to snatch away their security? God forbid francis! Leave them alone if you don't know what you are talking about. These are very stressful times we live in.

You’re confused, Mark. If a person is following Christ and walking in the light, there is no condemnation to that person. If they are not, then you should convert them to repentance and if you do, you will have saved their life, at the very least. If a person is confident that they are saved yet they are not following the commands of Christ, what are they saved from? Certainly not from their sin. It is still dominating their lives and darkening their eyes.

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that you also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth

1John 2:9-10
He that says he is in the light, (NOTICE: he believes that he has the Spirit) and hates his brother, is in darkness even until now.
He that loves his brother abides in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. But he that hates his brother is in darkness, and walks in darkness, and knows not whither he goes, because that darkness has blinded his eyes.

 

[MarkT]

I'm sure that the Pharisees had the same "security" that you speak of - and Christ tried to tell them they were wrong. The problem is that you are introducing relativism into the religious realm. We don't "live and let live" when we see people living in error. I do agree that we need to be careful on how we address others, but just because someone declares that they have the "spirit" doesn't mean they actually do. People are not immune from self-delusion.

No. The Parisees didn't believe Jesus was the Christ plus all of their teachings were learned by rote. They didn't have the fear of God. Their hearts were far from him. But I believe your position is that no one but the Pope can receive the Spirit of God, and your question is how can we know if someone actually does have the Spirit of God. Well, first, they are the peacemakers. Second, they love the brethren. Third, they are poor. Fourth, they forgive. Fifth, they turn the other cheek; they don't repay evil with evil. Sixth, they show mercy. Seventh, they love the righteousness of God. Eighth, they don't judge others. Nineth, they keep the commandments to love God first and then to do unto others as they would have it done unto them. Tenth, they follow the instructions; the teachings of the Lord Jesus; hearing the words of God, they hold them fast in an honest and good heart, and bring forth fruit with patience. Eleventh, they hate arrogance. Twelveth, they hate their life. Thirteenth, they believe anything is possible with God. Fourteenth, they are patient. Sixteenth, they are kind. Seventeeth, they are faithful, Eighteenth, they love the knowledge of God. Nineteenth, they know the fear of the LORD. Twentieth, the LORD chastises them when they do wrong. 21st, they don't seek their own glory. 22nd, their will is to do God's will.

No, it is not my desire to do the devil's work. I am not questioning anyone's personal salvation. I question the theology that leads one to think they are already saved for heaven when the Bible doesn't talk about such things. If I question someone's personal salvation, however, feel free to repost your comments again.

Jesus said, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment but has passed from death to life. John 5:24

Well, Jesus is saying we have eternal life, and we have passed from death to life. And why not? We heard his voice and we believed.

 

[francisdesales]

The Parisees didn't believe Jesus was the Christ plus all of their teachings were learned by rote. They didn't have the fear of God. Their hearts were far from him. But I believe your position is that no one but the Pope can receive the Spirit of God, and your question is how can we know if someone actually does have the Spirit of God.

First of all, please don't accuse me of doing the devil's work if I disagree with you. But some of your statements are incorrect. My position is NOT that no one but the Pope can receive the Spirit of God. I have NEVER said anything to that effect, and if you have read any of my posts on this matter, I have on numerous occasions have said that the Spirit blows where He wills and that Protestants of open hearts can and DO receive the Spirit of the Lord. I have NEVER relegated the Spirit to only those in VISIBLE communion with the Catholic Church, but have gone way beyond that in a number of posts in an attempt to explain the Church's position on the extent of WHO is IN the Church. Again, please don't accuse me of doing the devil's work for correcting your mistatements...

I would like to say that having the Spirit does NOT mean that one entirely understands every Word in the Bible... NOWHERE does Scriptures make the claim that one perfectly understands the Word because they have the Spirit. Paul on a number of occasions speaks of "immature" Christians, Christians who are feeding on milk rather than on solid food. Paul says that each person is given different charisms, different gifts, and interpretation of Scriptures is one of them. We all do not have them, and even the greatest of Saints were not infallible in their thoughts on every single passage that they interpreted...

Well, first, they are the peacemakers. Second, they love the brethren. Third, they are poor. Fourth, they forgive. Fifth, they turn the other cheek; they don't repay evil with evil. Sixth, they show mercy. Seventh, they love the righteousness of God. Eighth, they don't judge others. Nineth, they keep the commandments to love God first and then to do unto others as they would have it done unto them. Tenth, they follow the instructions; the teachings of the Lord Jesus;

Well done, Mark, I would entirely agree with you. This is how one knows they have the Spirit. One John says we KNOW we have the Spirit when we obey the Commandments of Christ, which you describe very nicely. It has little to do with "denomination". But again, I must tell you that having the Spirit doesn't necessarily mean one FULLY understands the Scriptures. The Spirit gives His gifts to whom HE wills, not what we THINK. God gave the community apostles, preachers, evangelists, healers, speakers of tongues, etc. We do not all have everyone of these gifts. As such, we should NOT claim to be able to interpret Scriptures infallibly just because we act as you speak of above (and I doubt that most people here act in the way you describe above at all times).

Jesus said, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment but has passed from death to life. John 5:24

Well, Jesus is saying we have eternal life, and we have passed from death to life. And why not? We heard his voice and we believed.

Mark, what is the point of "hearing" the Word of God if you don't do it? What does Jesus say in Matthew 7 about hearing and DOING the Word of God? What does James say? What does Paul say? The problem is that many people think that they merely need to hear the Word of God, believe that they are saved, and "POOF", that's it. Many people do NOT conduct their lives as you mention above - and for some strange reason, they believe that they are "saved". Christ came to save us NOW. That means we must transform. Without this, we are not really saved from the slavery of sin. We are still in slavery if we continue in the same ways. Thus, salvation is more than a bus ticket.

Eternal life IS Christ. It is not a "status" that we will receive in the future. Christ is the way, the truth and THE LIFE. Eternal life. Having eternal life means having Christ abide in us. It does NOT refer to what happens after we die. Read 1 John 5:12. It refers to the "today", the "right now". NOT after we die. Thus, when we believe, we have Christ abiding in us. This says NOTHING about having everlasting life in heaven - unless we CONTINUE in Christ.

Again, please don't confuse my discussion with the work of the devil. I have said nothing about your personal walk in Christ. If you are acting as you have mentioned above, you are in Christ and you have eternal life right now. My goal is to open people's eyes to the meaning of God's Word, not do the devil's work. The devil would love people to rest on their laurels, thinking they are already saved and have nothing left to do but continue living in sin, thinking that their bus ticket has already been bought. That bus ticket leads to hell, Mark. Only those who do the will of the Father will be saved for heaven.

Regards

 

[A-Christian]

Very well articulated FrancisD

 

[MarkT]

First of all, please don't accuse me of doing the devil's work if I disagree with you. But some of your statements are incorrect. My position is NOT that no one but the Pope can receive the Spirit of God. I have NEVER said anything to that effect, and if you have read any of my posts on this matter, I have on numerous occasions have said that the Spirit blows where He wills and that Protestants of open hearts can and DO receive the Spirit of the Lord. I have NEVER relegated the Spirit to only those in VISIBLE communion with the Catholic Church, but have gone way beyond that in a number of posts in an attempt to explain the Church's position on the extent of WHO is IN the Church. Again, please don't accuse me of doing the devil's work for correcting your mistatements...

You're my link to the Catholic Church, francis. As always, I appreciate it when you correct me.

I would like to say that having the Spirit does NOT mean that one entirely understands every Word in the Bible... NOWHERE does Scriptures make the claim that one perfectly understands the Word because they have the Spirit. Paul on a number of occasions speaks of "immature" Christians, Christians who are feeding on milk rather than on solid food. Paul says that each person is given different charisms, different gifts, and interpretation of Scriptures is one of them. We all do not have them, and even the greatest of Saints were not infallible in their thoughts on every single passage that they interpreted...

The Spirit leads us to understand the Scriptures. As I see it, if God directs us to this forum, and we go to the Scriptures, then we are being taught. I see no reason for hiding our talents. We know according to the parable that the ones who invest and grow their talents receive more and the ones who hide their talent are cast out.

Well done, Mark, I would entirely agree with you. This is how one knows they have the Spirit. One John says we KNOW we have the Spirit when we obey the Commandments of Christ, which you describe very nicely. It has little to do with "denomination". But again, I must tell you that having the Spirit doesn't necessarily mean one FULLY understands the Scriptures. The Spirit gives His gifts to whom HE wills, not what we THINK. God gave the community apostles, preachers, evangelists, healers, speakers of tongues, etc. We do not all have everyone of these gifts. As such, we should NOT claim to be able to interpret Scriptures infallibly just because we act as you speak of above (and I doubt that most people here act in the way you describe above at all times).

But you're putting up obstacles to your understanding. Faith is like a tree watered by the words of God. It's like a living system; taking up the words like water, giving life to your branches, making your leaves green. Faith grows like a tree. It bears fruit: knowledge, wisdom, good works. Therefore we seek the words of God for growth. If we don't seek them, then we don't find them. If we don't find them, then our branches wither and the tree doesn't bear fruit. The tree that doesn't bear fruit is cut down.

Mark, what is the point of "hearing" the Word of God if you don't do it?

What do you mean by 'do it'? Believing is doing. Reading is doing. Understanding is doing. Seeking is doing.

What does Jesus say in Matthew 7 about hearing and DOING the Word of God?

He says seek and you will find.

What does James say? What does Paul say? The problem is that many people think that they merely need to hear the Word of God, believe that they are saved, and "POOF", that's it.

Well then they hear but do not understand.

Many people do NOT conduct their lives as you mention above - and for some strange reason, they believe that they are "saved". Christ came to save us NOW. That means we must transform. Without this, we are not really saved from the slavery of sin. We are still in slavery if we continue in the same ways. Thus, salvation is more than a bus ticket.

I know. They say they believe in him but they can't hear him.

Eternal life IS Christ. It is not a "status" that we will receive in the future. Christ is the way, the truth and THE LIFE. Eternal life. Having eternal life means having Christ abide in us. It does NOT refer to what happens after we die. Read 1 John 5:12. It refers to the "today", the "right now". NOT after we die. Thus, when we believe, we have Christ abiding in us. This says NOTHING about having everlasting life in heaven - unless we CONTINUE in Christ.

That's right. We don't wait for the householder to rise and close the door. We enter by the narrow door while we can. And being in Christ we are watered by the true words of God because he is the true vine. Of course the believer has to continue believing. But what are you saying? Are you saying the Calvinists don't believe in Jesus? Or they don't hear? Or you don't like their fruit?

 

[mutzrein]

Wow - this has been going a while.

How much free will does a dead man have?

Blessings

Being spiritually dead is not equated to being physically dead...

Read the story of the Prodigal Son. The Father called the Son "dead" twice" - yet he seemed to have free will and did return home. The context of Luke 15 clearly is talking about the sinner returning to God. The common mistake is using passages such as Ephesians 1 (we are dead in sin) and comparing apples with oranges by saying we are dead, as in physically dead and have NO ABILITY WHATSOEVER to return to God. Luke 15 proves that is a mistake. The man who is spiritually dead is able, with the grace of God and his free will, to return to God if he so chooses...

...if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he has committed and keep all my statutes and live according to judgment and righteousness, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his rebellions that he has committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him; by his righteousness that he has done he shall live. Do I desire perchance the death of the wicked? said the Lord GOD, Shall he not live if he should leave his ways? Ezekiel 21-23

God desires men to be saved, not to die...spiritually. "Thus says the Lord".

Regards

Interesting that you should use the Prodigal son to try to prove that a ‘dead’ person has a free will. Obviously you consider this parable to be about a person who is ‘unsaved’. And of course I accept that there are many who think this way. That of course is the nature of parables especially when an intellectual interpretation is applied in order that it conform with a particular theology.

The telling issue in this parable is that the relationship between the father and his sons is already established. By virtue of this relationship we know that they have already been given life. They are already participating in the father’s kingdom, being aware that the father had already made provision for them.

This is a picture of all who are born of God – of all who have been afforded life. And as God’s children, what is required of us? To walk in faith, abiding in the provision of our father.

But the prodigal son, rather than remain in ‘faith’ wanted the tangible benefits of his relationship. Rather than walk in faith, he took it upon himself to trust in his own devices. Remember, it is the very life afforded by his father that has given him the ability to choose what he would do with his inheritance. And so it is with those of use who are born of the Spirit of God. Scripture tells us that those who are born again, are born, not of ‘human decision’ but of God. But after having received the gift of life we are made accountable for what we do with it. Some will receive eternal reward and some will be damned.

Scripture also tells that that which is without faith is sin. We also know that sin leads to death. So the father was right. If the son had remained outside of faith the ultimate conclusion was death. However, the son did come to his senses and returned to his father, repenting of his sin against heaven and his father.

So why would he repent of a sin against heaven? Because he had treated with the contempt the gift of life that had made him an heir of that glorious kingdom. But, where there is repentance – there is also forgiveness.

And let’s not forget that repentance is also a gift afforded those who are God’s children. Not only does a dead man not have a free will. He cannot repent in order that he might be born again, because this too is a human decision.

 

[francisdesales]

The telling issue in this parable is that the relationship between the father and his sons is already established. By virtue of this relationship we know that they have already been given life. They are already participating in the father’s kingdom, being aware that the father had already made provision for them.

Their relationship was severed. The son desired his inheritance now - basically saying "YOU ARE DEAD TO ME".

Certainly, the father and son had a relationship, but the son broke it, just as we do when we commit "deadly sin", sin that destroys our relationship with God. This is not something found only in the NT. This is also OT. The individuals of Israel can and DID sever their relationship with God (even though they were sons and daughters of God) by commiting serious sin, such as worshiping false idols as a community, or killing another person individually. In both cases, the relationship was severed, and ONLY when they begged God for forgiveness (which is ALWAYS readily available when we, sons and daughters of God, turn to Him) were they re-established in their relationship. There is an undeniable cycle of this in the Old Testament. Apparently, the Jews, in each case, freely chose to return to God. This is also the case in the individual - the one who leaves the Father and goes "into the world". The Son FREELY returned home, remembering that relationship he left behind. I do not see anywhere that it says that the Father hired or sent anyone to fetch the son. One can ONLY say that the Son FREELY returned home. Since Christ is speaking about spiritual death, it becomes clear that a person "dead in sin" is indeed ABLE, with God's Grace, to call upon Him and ask forgiveness.

Spritually, being dead does not mean we are no longer able to return to God. That is an incredible thing to say, considering it is seen in Scriptures over and over and over again. Not only that, we see the Prophets THEMSELVES CALLING the people to return to God. That is a curious thing, asking people to do something that they cannot do...(according to those who invent "man has no free will") This whole idea of "no free will" is nonsense, in my mind, since man, with God's aide, does it all the time in Scriptures and in our own lives. It is a denial of the real world to uphold a false concept that is not Scritpurally accurate.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

You're my link to the Catholic Church, francis. As always, I appreciate it when you correct me.

Thanks - if necessary, I will try to do it more kindly.

The Spirit leads us to understand the Scriptures. As I see it, if God directs us to this forum, and we go to the Scriptures, then we are being taught. I see no reason for hiding our talents. We know according to the parable that the ones who invest and grow their talents receive more and the ones who hide their talent are cast out.

In the general sense, but not each individual verse. We just don't find that anywhere, even among the individual Catholic Church Fathers of ancient times. It seems to me it is practically impossible to even consider that the Spirit DOES enable us to understand "fully" the Scriptures, because men who claim the Spirit DISAGREE on such basic subjects and themes! I would say that most here truly believe they are walking in the Spirit - and yet, they disagree? Thus, this is proof that the Spirit does NOT necessarily open our minds, each and every one of us, to the full meaning of the Bible. This is just not found in the Scriptures. If that was how the Spirit worked, I don't think we would need teachers and evangelists. And yet, the Bible clearly says the Spirit gives us teachers and evangelists - for the purpose of explaining Scriptures to us.

As I said before, God has not given each of us ALL of His mighty gifts. We are a Body, and not all of us possess ALL elements of this Body. Some of us are 'eyes', and others are 'ears'.

But you're putting up obstacles to your understanding. Faith is like a tree watered by the words of God. It's like a living system; taking up the words like water, giving life to your branches, making your leaves green. Faith grows like a tree. It bears fruit: knowledge, wisdom, good works. Therefore we seek the words of God for growth. If we don't seek them, then we don't find them. If we don't find them, then our branches wither and the tree doesn't bear fruit. The tree that doesn't bear fruit is cut down.

How am I putting up obstacles to my understanding? Are you trying to say that I should let people believe false doctrines? Where is the Scriptural precedent for that? Did not Paul correct his communities when he wrote to them - and yet, he loved them and recognized that they were indeed walking in the Lord. My correcting someone does not mean I believe that they are no longer in Christ!

What do you mean by 'do it'? Believing is doing. Reading is doing. Understanding is doing. Seeking is doing.

Yes, if that WAS the WIll of the Father. Read Matthew 5-7 in context, though. Nowhere does Jesus talk about "doing" as reading a book and understanding it! His greatest teachings, the Beatitudes, do not talk about Bible study and Bible reading. He talks about love, forgiveness, giving alms - things done out of the goodness of one's heart, not as a show for other people. That is the Will of the Father - to love from the heart. Not to make successful exegesis of the Bible. Or understand the nuances of the Greek wording of Romans 16:2... That falls into the trap of being a Scribe, in my opinion. The most holiest of Christians, I have found, are the ones who LOVE. This does not require one to fully understand the Bible, or even know how many books are in the Bible!

Well then they hear but do not understand.

Thus, reading a book can also lead to misunderstanding. We see it here all the time. Whenever there are two different opinions, Mark, one MUST be wrong, and one must be misunderstanding God's Word. That is pretty clear to me.

We don't wait for the householder to rise and close the door. We enter by the narrow door while we can. And being in Christ we are watered by the true words of God because he is the true vine. Of course the believer has to continue believing. But what are you saying? Are you saying the Calvinists don't believe in Jesus? Or they don't hear? Or you don't like their fruit?

Of course I am not saying that Calvinists do not believe in Jesus. Nor am I saying they do not bear fruit. I couldn't say such things because I do not know them well enough to make such judgments. However, note that Jesus corrected those who had misunderstood Scriptures. If I see people preaching incorrectly this and that, I will make an attempt to correct that misunderstanding (naturally, my interpretation of the Scriptures as guided by the Church) - but that says NOTHING about their walk in Christ!

Regards

 

[MarkT]

The purpose of the parable of the prodigal son is to get YOU to wake up! Come to your senses man! God is your Father. You came from his house. First, you have to get this. But I guess if you're not a son, you won't. But if you are then, look at your situation. You were a prince in your Father's house. In the world you're nothing; even your Father's servants are treated better. I could go on, but if you don't get this, then you won't get anything.

 

[unred typo]

quote by MarkT:
The purpose of the parable of the prodigal son is to get YOU to wake up! Come to your senses man! God is your Father. You came from his house. First, you have to get this. But I guess if you're not a son, you won't. But if you are then, look at your situation. You were a prince in your Father's house. In the world you're nothing; even your Father's servants are treated better. I could go on, but if you don't get this, then you won't get anything.

You have some strange ideas, MarkT. I guess this is where they begin then. First of all, a parable is too obscure to base all your theology on. Second, if it were true that this parable means what you say, then every person born is the Father’s sons. All children are children of God until they rebel against him. Jesus lights every man that comes into the world. Jesus said of such is the kingdom of God, referring to the children. Paul said he was alive before the commandment came to him and it wasn’t until the commands came that sin took over and he died. This is how it is in every person. They are alive in Christ until the day they rebel against the law they find written in their hearts. That is when every person leaves the father’s house. Every person who returns from following the world, the flesh and the devil, is welcomed back into the father’s house. Some people never leave, like the older brother. My Dad was like that. He was raised to believe from a child and he always feared God all his life.

 

[francisdesales]

The purpose of the parable of the prodigal son is to get YOU to wake up! Come to your senses man! God is your Father. You came from his house. First, you have to get this. But I guess if you're not a son, you won't. But if you are then, look at your situation. You were a prince in your Father's house. In the world you're nothing; even your Father's servants are treated better. I could go on, but if you don't get this, then you won't get anything.

Mark,

The purpose of the Prodigal Son is to get you to wake up??? :-?

Perhaps it is to get you to realize that the Father greatly desires men to return to Him. Read the context of the rest of Luke 15. There are three parables with the same teaching purpose - that God wants what is lost to return to Him (which, of course, is against Calvinistic teachings)

I had thought your paragraph on how we know we are in Christ was right on. Apparently, you have forgotten it - or by your own definition, you are not in Christ. You hardly know me, and yet "you are not a son", because I interpret a parable differently? I hadn't realized that a difference of opinion on a Scripture passage confined someone to eternal hell. I missed that declaration in the Bible.

Have you considered that YOU might be wrong?

Whose doing the devil's work now, Mark?

Have a Merry Christmas, just the same...

 

[mondar]

Mark,

The purpose of the Prodigal Son is to get you to wake up??? :-?

Perhaps it is to get you to realize that the Father greatly desires men to return to Him. Read the context of the rest of Luke 15. There are three parables with the same teaching purpose - that God wants what is lost to return to Him (which, of course, is against Calvinistic teachings.

Straw man.

 

[MarkT]

You have some strange ideas, MarkT. I guess this is where they begin then. First of all, a parable is too obscure to base all your theology on.

I don't have a theology anymore than Jesus had a theology anymore than the apostles had a theology. I have the words of God. Was Jesus teaching theology? Was he sent to start a religion? No. His teachings are spirit and life. Am I speaking to spiritual men? I think not. You call it strange, that which is revealed from God? Yes, I am a stranger in this world. You do not know me, but who I am and what I am is known to God.

Jesus spoke to the men who were given to him saying, 'To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God but for those outside everything is in parables.' But I hear you say you can't see; it's 'too obscure'. So it is with everyone who is outside.

Second, if it were true that this parable means what you say, then every person born is the Father’s sons.

No. Jesus called the Pharisees vipers. They coudn't hear him because they were not of God; God was not their Father. Likewise Judas was a devil.

All children are children of God until they rebel against him.

Nope. The children of God hear his voice. They know him like a chick knows it's mother; by his voice.

Jesus lights every man that comes into the world.

How can you say he lights every man when his own people didn't receive him?

Jesus said of such is the kingdom of God, referring to the children.

I think you're just using whatever fits your theology. What did Jesus say about the dogs? 'It's not fair to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs' Maybe you can't see he is not calling the dogs 'the children'.

Jesus said, 'Unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven', but what does he mean by that? Is this a reference to the prodigal son who turned back? No. What Jesus is saying is that unless your faith is pure, you can't enter. Children believe their parents can do anything and so must you believe your Father can and will do for you as Jesus said he will.

Paul said he was alive before the commandment came to him and it wasn’t until the commands came that sin took over and he died. This is how it is in every person.

He was speaking of the law. I'm not sure exactly what commandment you are refering to.

They are alive in Christ until the day they rebel against the law they find written in their hearts.

What? No way. To be in Christ, you have to hear and believe. Children are not born in Christ. They are innocent, not having committed any sin; I'll agree that much, but that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. You must be born again.

That is when every person leaves the father’s house. Every person who returns from following the world, the flesh and the devil, is welcomed back into the father’s house.

NO. The Father's house is light. Paul said, 'He dwells in unapproachable light'. How can you be in your Father's house and not be in the light. Jesus said he was the light. What does being in Christ mean to you? Is it just a catchy phrase? No. Being in Christ is being in the Father's house. When the son returns to the Father's house he is given gifts. God puts a ring on his finger.

Some people never leave, like the older brother.

The older brother was working in the field. The field is the world. The work was teaching the law and the commandments according to Moses. So the older brother refers to the remnant of Israel who keep the law; the descendants of Abraham according to the Old Covenant.

My Dad was like that. He was raised to believe from a child and he always feared God all his life.

How about your mother? What was she like?

 

[MarkT]

The purpose of the parable of the prodigal son is to get YOU to wake up! Come to your senses man! God is your Father. You came from his house. First, you have to get this. But I guess if you're not a son, you won't. But if you are then, look at your situation. You were a prince in your Father's house. In the world you're nothing; even your Father's servants are treated better. I could go on, but if you don't get this, then you won't get anything.

Mark,

The purpose of the Prodigal Son is to get you to wake up??? :-?

Perhaps it is to get you to realize that the Father greatly desires men to return to Him. Read the context of the rest of Luke 15. There are three parables with the same teaching purpose - that God wants what is lost to return to Him (which, of course, is against Calvinistic teachings)

I had thought your paragraph on how we know we are in Christ was right on. Apparently, you have forgotten it - or by your own definition, you are not in Christ. You hardly know me, and yet "you are not a son", because I interpret a parable differently? I hadn't realized that a difference of opinion on a Scripture passage confined someone to eternal hell. I missed that declaration in the Bible.

Have you considered that YOU might be wrong?

Whose doing the devil's work now, Mark?

Have a Merry Christmas, just the same...

I wasn't talking to you francis. :D

I was talking to unred. Sorry about the mix up.

Does God pour out his Spirit in vain? Would you hide your talent and not invest it? Saying you can't know everything, then what are you doing? The spirit in a man leads him to understand. I think you have the intelligence and the ability to understand, but you put up obstacles. Saying you can't because others can't is no excuse. It makes no sense. If you have root in yourself, then you won't be swayed by every spirit that is out there. Certainly, if God is in you, you can; if it is his will. I believe in the impossible; that whatever is impossible with men is possible with God.

 

[mutzrein]

Well said Mark. I've enjoyed reading your posts here.

And I like the words of Jesus prayer as recorded in John 17, "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.

 

[francisdesales]

I wasn't talking to you francis. :D

Sorry, I thought you were speaking to me on the Prodigal Son...

Does God pour out his Spirit in vain? Would you hide your talent and not invest it?

It is possible:

We then, [as] workers together [with him], exhort [you] also that ye have not received the grace of God in vain. 2 Cor 8:1

Also, I ask you to consider the parable of the Talents and the one who buried their "talent"...

God has given us the free will to choose what we want to do. He also gives us graces that allow us to overcome temptations and our own selfish desires to come to Him - if we allow Him to work within us. However, the fact that God gives commandments and expects man to obey them (and we don't always do that) is proof enough for me that man has free will to "receive the grace of God in vain".

Merry Christmas, Mark

 

[francisdesales]

Mark,

The purpose of the Prodigal Son is to get you to wake up??? :-?

Perhaps it is to get you to realize that the Father greatly desires men to return to Him. Read the context of the rest of Luke 15. There are three parables with the same teaching purpose - that God wants what is lost to return to Him (which, of course, is against Calvinistic teachings.

Straw man.

Sour grapes...