Free will or no free will?

[MrVersatile48]

Timely Word 4 Today:-

Fulfulling Our Duty to God: By Repentance from Dead Works

"But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him.

Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?"

Ezekiel 18:21-23 NIV

_______________

Depart from evil and do good, and dwell forevermore.

Psalm 37:27 KJV

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If you return to the Almighty, you will be restored; If you remove unrighteousness far from your tent.

Job 22:23 NASB

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Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?

Jeremiah 4:14 KJV

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If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV

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... From the days of your fathers you have turned aside from My statutes and have not kept them. Return to Me, and I will return to you, says the LORD of hosts.

Malachi 3:7 NASB

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Thanks be unto God for His wonderful gift:
Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God is the object of
our faith; the only faith that saves is faith in Him.



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Through the Bible in a Year - Readings for September 13

September 13: John 15:1-16:4a, 2 Chronicles 23, Psalm 80

Click Here for the complete schedule

Or Copy and paste this link into your browser:
http://www.arcamax.com/ttb-yr.html



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Weekly Meditation 9/9 - 9/15: Called To Righteousness

But now God has shown us a different way of being right
in his sight--not by obeying the law but by the way
promised in the Scriptures long ago.

We are made right in God's sight when we trust in
Jesus Christ to take away our sins. And we all can
be saved in this same way, no matter who we are
or what we have done.

Romans 3:21,22 NLT

_______________

"I, the LORD, have called you to demonstrate
my righteousness. I will guard and support you,
for I have given you to my people as the personal
confirmation of my covenant with them.

And you will be a light to guide all nations
to me.

You will open the eyes of the blind and
free the captives from prison.

You will release those who sit in dark dungeons.

Isaiah 42:6,7 NLT

 

[Diolectic]

MrVersatile48:
Did you just spam this thread?

 

[Drew]

The matter of Romans 7 being interped as the state of the Jew under Torah and not presenting an "individual" theology, does not fit into the context with chapt.s 1-6.
Only until Chat. 9 does Paul come to this point of the state of the Jew under Torah.

I do not agree with you here. I think that Romans 1-6 is full of stuff about Israel. As such, it does establish a context in which it is entirely reasonable to make the interpretation that in Romans 7:9, Paul is making a Christian analysis of the Jew under Torah.

Consider the famous text Romans 1:16-17 in NASB

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

The distinction drawn between Jew and Gentile underscores that Paul is indeed concerned in this whole letter with the place of the Jews in God's plan. It is not something that is only introduced in chapter 9. Also, I suggest that the phrase "righteousness of God" refers specifically to God's faithfulness to the covenant with Israel as established in Genesis 15. Later in Romans 4, Paul clearly refers to the covenant establishment by quoting from Genesis 15.

In Romans 2, we have:

But if you bear the name "Jew" and rely upon the Law and boast in God, and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law, and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law (AE)the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth, you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal...."

Paul in chapter 2 and in chapter is taking the standard Jewish critique of paganism and is reflecting it back to the people of Israel. This is not to say that there is not a lesson here for all of us. But Romans at every step is concerned with the nation of Israel and how they fit into God's faithful fulfillment of the covenant.

In Romans 3 the very first version addresses the nation of Israel:

Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision?

Again, the last 4 verses of Romans 3:

"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

Again, Israel and the Law are central. In this material, Paul undercuts the Jewish expectation that national vindication of Israel will be the means by which God fulfills the covenant.

I could go on with lots more - a good case can be made that one of the central issues in chapter 4 is the question: Does God's way of fulfilling the covenant mean that we (Gentiles) are now members of Israel according to the flesh? Paul answers no. I will also claim that the "works" in verses 3 to 8 are really the "works of Torah" and specifically those which demarcate national Israel from the pagans.

I think it is very hard to argue that Romans 1 through 6 is not centrally concerned with the place of national Israel in God's plan. On that basis, it is entirely consistent to see Romans 7 as an account about the Jew under Torah.

 

[Diolectic]

Drew:
I am not saying that your wrong, but in the practical personal aplication of Romans, I will stay on my main point that Romans 7 is Pauls pre-salvation battle and the personal experience of the "natural man" who is outside of Christ.

 

[Drew]

Drew:
I am not saying that your wrong, but in the practical aplication of Romans, I will stay on my main point that Romans 7 is Pauls pre-salvation battle and the personal experience of the "natural man" who is outside of Christ.

I appreciate your polite manner and I trust that we will both agree that the important thing is not to win a debate, but to collaboratively come to understand Paul's intended meaning. I think that the "natural man" pre-salvation view of Romans 7 is at odds with what Paul says about himself in Phillipians 3 - that he was blameless according to the Law. And I think there is lots of Scriptural evidence to suggest that to be blameless as to the Law is not merely to obey a bunch of "don'ts" and thereby leaving the door open to the claim that Paul was incapable of doing the "good that he willed". Consider this from Ezekial 18:

Suppose there is a righteous man
who does what is just and right.

He does not eat at the mountain shrines
or look to the idols of the house of Israel.
He does not defile his neighbor's wife
or lie with a woman during her period.

He does not oppress anyone,
But returns what he took in pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
but gives his food to the hungry
and provides clothing for the naked.

He does not lend at usury
or take excessive interest.
He withholds his hand from doing wrong
and judges fairly between man and man.

He follows my decrees
and faithfully keeps my laws.
That man is righteous;
he will surely live,
declares the Sovereign LORD

In the last verse, I see Ezekial as establishing that the content of the previous verses is indeed part of what it means to "keep the Law" - and the preceding verses show that this involves not simply "avoiding a bunch of 'don'ts'". To keep the law is to actively do good in the world as the bolded sections show.

Since Paul claims to be blameless according to the Law, it would seem hard to use Romans 7 in support of any argument that the "pre-Christian" individual simply cannot do the good that he wills. Paul is a counter-example as he states in Phillipians 3. I think that the Romans 7 passage is talking about the nation of Israel.

Now having said all this, I am admitting that Paul is speaking in a somewhat exagerrated form when he makes his "I am blameless" claim in Phillipians 3. I doubt that he is intending to suggest that he was sinless - such a view would go against so much else that he writes. But I think he clearly is saying that he was capable of doing some good in his pre-Christian experience.

 

[francisdesales]

Now having said all this, I am admitting that Paul is speaking in a somewhat exagerrated form when he makes his "I am blameless" claim in Phillipians 3. I doubt that he is intending to suggest that he was sinless - such a view would go against so much else that he writes. But I think he clearly is saying that he was capable of doing some good in his pre-Christian experience.

Drew,

Your earlier summation of obedience of the law, etc., was spot on. But as to the above, first, a clarification. To be blameless, to be perfect, - to the Jew - does NOT mean the same thing that we mean it to be (the Greek definition of perfection = error free). To the Hebrew, being perfect is to follow God unswervingly, to, as James says, not be double-minded (or Jesus, we cannot love God and money). To be perfect is to follow God as per His will, the Torah.

This concept is seen throughout the OT - where the Jews often deviated from this worship of God alone. They followed the ways of the world rather than God's ways as expressed in the Decalogue. They worshiped false gods. Thus, a huge mistake is made by those who believe that Paul speaks about perfection meaning that one NEVER sins! That is a misinterpretation.

Thus, if we understand Phillipians 3 in the Jewish mindset, we see that Paul was totally dedicated to God and obeying Him by following the Law. I believe what Paul is speaking about in Romans 7 he will answer in Romans 8: Those who follow God unreservedly sometimes get frustrated because their progress sometimes is tripped up. Our conscience is at war. What are we to do? Call upon the Holy Spirit! The Holy Spirit will help us to obey the Law!

Regards

 

[Drew]

To be blameless, to be perfect, - to the Jew - does NOT mean the same thing that we mean it to be (the Greek definition of perfection = error free). To the Hebrew, being perfect is to follow God unswervingly, to, as James says, not be double-minded (or Jesus, we cannot love God and money). To be perfect is to follow God as per His will, the Torah.

I will agree to this.

 

[MarkT]

Oddly enough, I do understand what you’re saying, I just don’t believe that is the case that the Bible is putting out. There is no suggestion that we were once in heaven before we were born physically here on earth. Where do you get this notion, other than this parable that has a perfectly reasonable explanation in those who demand to have their future inheritance from God right here in this life and not want to wait after their death to go enjoy the pleasures that await the faithful in Christ?

But do you understand the parable? The understanding comes from the parable as well as from the words, 'Call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father who is in heaven'. This means we are spirit and not flesh even though we have parents according to the flesh. In fact, the understanding is consistent with everything Jesus said. The Old Testament even mentions the sons of God. Genesis 6:1-4

Do you think that everyone was in this unborn sonship state of being before they were born or just a few elite ones who are better than the ordinary humans born of flesh and blood? Before I unravel your royal covering, I would like some clarification as to what this fabric is made of.

I don't know. I don't see alot of understanding in the church. Jesus said, 'He who is of God hears the words of God' So essentially the spirit that comes from God can hear the words of God. Now if God gave you this spirit, he did so for his purpose. He knows you. In fact Paul said God predestined those whom he fore-knew to be conformed to the image of his Son. And those whom he predestined he also called. Jesus said he was sent to find the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He knew who he was looking for; who was of God and who was of the devil. He said his sheep will hear his voice. If they were his sheep to begin with, then naturally they would know his voice. Of course what I mean by hearing is understanding and understanding comes by the spirit that God gave us. So if God gave us the spirit to hear and understand his Son, then it must be that we are his sheep.

 

[unred typo]

quote by MarkT on Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:35 pm
Unred said: “Oddly enough, I do understand what you’re saying, I just don’t believe that is the case that the Bible is putting out. There is no suggestion that we were once in heaven before we were born physically here on earth. Where do you get this notion, other than this parable that has a perfectly reasonable explanation in those who demand to have their future inheritance from God right here in this life and not want to wait after their death to go enjoy the pleasures that await the faithful in Christ?â€Â

But do you understand the parable? The understanding comes from the parable as well as from the words, 'Call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father who is in heaven'. This means we are spirit and not flesh even though we have parents according to the flesh. In fact, the understanding is consistent with everything Jesus said. The Old Testament even mentions the sons of God. Genesis 6:1-4

Yes, I understand what you are saying. I just don’t agree that is the message that Jesus or the Bible is giving. Your proclamation of unmerited sonship is not unlike the Calvinist view in that it appeals to the human ego and the basic laziness of the flesh, not to mention the tendency of the western psyche toward irresponsibility. One of our favorite dreams here is to gain an easy luxurious life without earning it. The megabucks syndrome has crept into the church. But as with any sin, it carries with it a high cost on it’s hidden price tag. The fear that one might not actually be chosen drives one to useless ‘churchy’ works to bring assurance of this elite status, while even the assurance cannot be obtained because the motive is wrong.

quote by MarkT:
Unred said: “Do you think that everyone was in this unborn sonship state of being before they were born or just a few elite ones who are better than the ordinary humans born of flesh and blood? Before I unravel your royal covering, I would like some clarification as to what this fabric is made of.â€Â

I don't know. I don't see alot of understanding in the church. Jesus said, 'He who is of God hears the words of God' So essentially the spirit that comes from God can hear the words of God. Now if God gave you this spirit, he did so for his purpose. He knows you. In fact Paul said God predestined those whom he fore-knew to be conformed to the image of his Son. And those whom he predestined he also called. Jesus said he was sent to find the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He knew who he was looking for; who was of God and who was of the devil. He said his sheep will hear his voice. If they were his sheep to begin with, then naturally they would know his voice. Of course what I mean by hearing is understanding and understanding comes by the spirit that God gave us. So if God gave us the spirit to hear and understand his Son, then it must be that we are his sheep.

His sheep hear his voice and they follow him. That means they obey him and walk in the paths he leads, which are paths of self-sacrifice and love for our enemies as well as those we like. It is not just to be able to find obscure meanings to the parables he gave. From the beginning when Cain killed his brother in jealousy, the sons of God were distinguished by their faithfulness shown by works of faith and love for God and the sons of the evil one were shown by their acts of hatred, self-centered ego and greed.

Within the scriptures, there is the constant message being put out that anyone can become a child of God by forsaking his evil nature and natural tendencies and taking on the challenge to die to self and sin. The announcement by Paul that he could do all things through Christ who strengthens him is a universal encouragement to anyone who believes in the power of the gospel and the teaching of Jesus to transform us into the sons of God. Satan is all about undermining that power and replacing it with a ‘do nothing’ couch potato xtianity that keeps one from the life that is in Christ. Don’t be fooled.

 

[MarkT]

Yes, I understand what you are saying. I just don’t agree that is the message that Jesus or the Bible is giving. Your proclamation of unmerited sonship is not unlike the Calvinist view in that it appeals to the human ego and the basic laziness of the flesh, not to mention the tendency of the western psyche toward irresponsibility. One of our favorite dreams here is to gain an easy luxurious life without earning it. The megabucks syndrome has crept into the church. But as with any sin, it carries with it a high cost on it’s hidden price tag. The fear that one might not actually be chosen drives one to useless ‘churchy’ works to bring assurance of this elite status, while even the assurance cannot be obtained because the motive is wrong.

Yep. But this is the point. The gift is unmerited otherwise it wouldn't be a gift. Jesus said, 'many are called, but few are chosen'. I don't consider this elitist. Is it elitist if it is true? I'm not affiliated with any particular church. I don't belong to any denomination. The church of God is the church of God. I don't gather from one denomination and not from another. I am who I am. If God has done what he did with what belongs to him, he did it for himself. Who I am will be revealed in time, even to me.

I agree the people's hearts are trained in greed. All they know is sex and money and violence. No one understands. They all go after their own way. The fruit of the Spirit is what is gathered; peace, love, understanding, perseverance, hope, mercy, forgiveness. No one fears not being chosen. That's an odd thought. See, I'm not against the Calvinist or the Catholic or the Protestant. Your theological differences don't set you apart. If the gospel is spirit and it falls on an understanding heart, then it will take root and the thing planted will bear fruit. I'm looking for the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[unred typo]

quote by MarkT on Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:34 am

Yep. But this is the point. The gift is unmerited otherwise it wouldn't be a gift. Jesus said, 'many are called, but few are chosen'. I don't consider this elitist. Is it elitist if it is true? I'm not affiliated with any particular church. I don't belong to any denomination. The church of God is the church of God. I don't gather from one denomination and not from another. I am who I am. If God has done what he did with what belongs to him, he did it for himself. Who I am will be revealed in time, even to me.

The unmerited gift is the blood/sacrifice of Christ, and that only works to save you if you repent and follow Christ. If you think you can sit back and watch what God does with and for you and you don’t get yourself behind the wheel, and start doing what Jesus taught you to do, you’re not going to be saved, period, and I don’t care who your Daddy is.

quote by MarkT:
I agree the people's hearts are trained in greed. All they know is sex and money and violence. No one understands. They all go after their own way. The fruit of the Spirit is what is gathered; peace, love, understanding, perseverance, hope, mercy, forgiveness. No one fears not being chosen. That's an odd thought. See, I'm not against the Calvinist or the Catholic or the Protestant. Your theological differences don't set you apart. If the gospel is spirit and it falls on an understanding heart, then it will take root and the thing planted will bear fruit. I'm looking for the fruit of the Spirit.

The gospel is the teaching of Christ, what he said that you must do in order to be saved. If you hear the message and obey it, you will inherit eternal life, but if you don’t, you will die. That isn’t a Calvinist or a Catholic or a Protestant theology, it’s the truth, pure and simple as Jesus taught it.

 

[MarkT]

The unmerited gift is the blood/sacrifice of Christ, and that only works to save you if you repent and follow Christ. If you think you can sit back and watch what God does with and for you and you don’t get yourself behind the wheel, and start doing what Jesus taught you to do, you’re not going to be saved, period, and I don’t care who your Daddy is.

So you have the fear of God in you. Can you believe God and not fear him? Do you fear God by choice or is it because you received his words and your heart is inclined towards understanding? You're compelled by reason of belief that God will do as he promised aren't you? There are other religious texts out there besides the Bible. Why do you choose to reject them? Is it because you choose to believe the truth? Why does your soul receive the words of God and reject anything else?

 

[unred typo]

quote by MarkT:
So you have the fear of God in you. Can you believe God and not fear him? Do you fear God by choice or is it because you received his words and your heart is inclined towards understanding? You're compelled by reason of belief that God will do as he promised aren't you? There are other religious texts out there besides the Bible. Why do you choose to reject them? Is it because you choose to believe the truth? Why does your soul receive the words of God and reject anything else?

Yes, God puts the fear of God into you the same way your father did. He tells you what he will do to you if you don’t obey. It’s that simple, Mark. Why did I believe him and other kids didn’t pay attention to their Dad’s threats? Because he carried out the discipline that he promised. We have the record of the Israelites as examples. I find it a very plausible record. I would not be shaken in my faith if it was proven to have errors. I do accept other religious texts. I reject what I believe to be wrong. Sometimes I change my mind. Believe it or not. :wink:

If you choose truth, and seek truth, you get truth. I don’t always choose the truth. Sometimes it is too hard to accept. I held on to the OSAS belief for years because I couldn’t accept that my brother who died at 19 might be in hell. One day I realized that God loved my brother more than I did and I should just trust that he knew best. I had already seen that doctrine was scripturally unsound, so when I had no more emotional ties to it, I tossed that security blanket. Sometimes, I don’t always care enough to do the study needed to affirm the truth. It’s just not that important to me. I like science but when it gets too deep, I drop it. It doesn’t weigh enough on my mind.

OK. What does this have to do with free will?

 

[MarkT]

Yes, God puts the fear of God into you the same way your father did. He tells you what he will do to you if you don’t obey. It’s that simple, Mark. Why did I believe him and other kids didn’t pay attention to their Dad’s threats? Because he carried out the discipline that he promised. We have the record of the Israelites as examples. I find it a very plausible record. I would not be shaken in my faith if it was proven to have errors. I do accept other religious texts. I reject what I believe to be wrong. Sometimes I change my mind. Believe it or not.

If you choose truth, and seek truth, you get truth. I don’t always choose the truth. Sometimes it is too hard to accept. I held on to the OSAS belief for years because I couldn’t accept that my brother who died at 19 might be in hell. One day I realized that God loved my brother more than I did and I should just trust that he knew best. I had already seen that doctrine was scripturally unsound, so when I had no more emotional ties to it, I tossed that security blanket. Sometimes, I don’t always care enough to do the study needed to affirm the truth. It’s just not that important to me. I like science but when it gets too deep, I drop it. It doesn’t weigh enough on my mind.

I don't understand. It sounds like you chose another doctrine which is equally unsound. My gosh. Remember what Jesus said about his own mother? 'O woman, what have you to do with me?' Likewise I would say, 'What has your brother to do with Christ?' You seem to forget the severity of God. As Paul said, 'necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I don't preach the gospel', 1 Cor. 9:16, as if to say, 'what choice do I have? I have to preach.' There are two things at work here; the love of God, the desire to please him and the fear of God, knowing the severity of God. God doesn't give us choices does he? Believe in his Son or die. Not much of a choice in that department. He doesn't make you believe. He just gives you a warning. But wait. You don't think there's a gun to your head? You're darn right there is. His warning is not something you can ignore. You might not consider it a gun but the threat of hell is worse than having a gun at your head. But God has given us the spirit to know him and to love his Son and it is his will that those who love his Son will not die. But the threat is still real and it's always in the back of your mind. Still as we are being perfected in love, we become more and more confident that God will not abandon us, that he will not let us fall, that the Lord Jesus will return, this time with a sword, and God will rescue us. So knowing this, are you still going to insist you are doing your own will? What does it do but pit your will against God? As for your brother, I hope in all things and I believe in all possibilities. As your brother did for you, he did for the Lord Jesus, so the Lord Jesus will do for him. When the jailer asked Paul and Silas what he had to do to be saved, they said, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household' Acts 16:31 I believe the members of my household will be saved. So should you.

OK. What does this have to do with free will?

Beats me. Belief isn't something you can will. It's not something you can control. People believe things because they are inclined to believe those things. Jesus said of himself, 'For the Son of man goes as it has been determined, but woe to the man by whom he is betrayed' Luke 22:22 I believe our steps are determined and as I sit here at the computer and at other times when it crosses my mind, I marvel that this is where I'm supposed to be.

 

[unred typo]

Unred asked: “OK. What does this have to do with free will?â€Â

quote by MarkT:
Beats me. Belief isn't something you can will. It's not something you can control. People believe things because they are inclined to believe those things. Jesus said of himself, 'For the Son of man goes as it has been determined, but woe to the man by whom he is betrayed' Luke 22:22 I believe our steps are determined and as I sit here at the computer and at other times when it crosses my mind, I marvel that this is where I'm supposed to be.

My last post was rather rambling. Sorry about that but I guess the death of a friend had put me in a bit of a melancholy funk. I would like to comment on belief though. Belief is a process that you do have control over. You set your mind to consider a question about some spiritual aspect. Maybe something like “Does God exist?†Or “where does the soul go when a person dies?â€Â. With prayerful thought, you must ask for wisdom to understand. We have to make a decision to accept the truth and not just make up what we want to believe. We must examine our hearts to see if we truly would accept something that we don’t want to believe, if it were true. Do you know when you are being honest with yourself? God can reveal even that to you. When we have fully examined and prayed to understand the truth of a matter, we can expect to receive. The expectation of that answer to prayer is faith.

The steps of a righteous man are ordered of the Lord. That is a promise of guidance to those who obey. If you choose to do your own thing, instead of righteous living, you are truly on your own.

 

[GraceBwithU]

The thread on free will kind of got side-tracked onto a different tangent so I thought I'd initiate a thread about the specific issue of free will.

When planning and creating the universe there can only be 2 options on how it would go:

1) The notion that some people were simply born smarter, more pure and intelligent to choose God and the rest were just too stupid and wicked not to.

or: 2) We are all in the same boat, none better than another and only God chooses who will come to him and gives us the pwoer to do his will.

The second option is the only equitable system because it:

1) Eliminates boasting because salvation is a gift from God based on God's election not good works as Romans 9:11-25 tells us
2) Since none of us knows who is elected, salvation is open to anyone who wants it and we are all accountable for our desires
3) It isn't the truth that some of us are better than others. That comes from the sin of pride.
4) It breeds humility and thankfulness that we were given a gift that we know we didn't deserve
5) It shows God's power and soveriegn choice, not ours

So do we have free will? No. We can only respond to what rules us. If we are being drawn by God, then he will make sure we come to him. This is illustrated through Jacob who actually wrestled with God, that is...until God broke his hip. It is also illustrated through Paul's conversion when he no more asked Jesus to come into his life than Jacob did.

So the propensity for man to try to take credit for his faith is disspelled by Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 9:11-25. Faith is a gift from God so that no one can boast."

And: Romans 3:11, "there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God." Only the Holy Spirit gives us the pwoer and desire to seek God as 1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us. So those tempted to blame unbelievers for their unbelief are forgetting that it's only by the grace of God that they themselves were chosen. :wink: That breeds thankfulness and humility rather than boasting and judgment.

And contrary to the thinking of many people, no one has the power to resist God's will because no one is stronger than God, not even Satan. In Matthew chapter 20 Jesus illustrates the paprable of the worker where an employer (God) has the right to decide how he will pay and treat his employess even though humans think we can decide what's fair or not. : Romans 9:11-25 also makes the same point that only God is soveriegn.

So God's plan in option 2 is the only equitable system because it leaves human desire and power out of it. It also makes us all equal before God and breeds humility rather than pride and most iportantly, makes salvation open to anyone who wants it because none of us knows who God's elect are.

Late to be posting...but I'm glad I wasn't a part of this thread...since you started it of with such a rediculus statement...including an insult to people that may have a different opinion or more knowledge than you, shows your ignorance from the beginning.
:-?

 

[unred typo]

That’s our dear Heidi for you. She reminds me of one of those remote control cars that hits an obstacle and either plows right over it or backs up and heads in another directions without even missing a beat. The only time she really scares me is when she agrees. :wink: We love her anyways. :-D

 

[beloved57]

I believe in freewill , If its God's...

eph 1:

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 8-)

 

[Drew]

I believe in freewill , If its God's...

eph 1:

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 8-)

I believe that Paul is writing about a very specific set of persons whom God has pre-destined to achieve a very specific purpose and there is a powerful body of evidence that this statement does not generalize beyond that group - a careful analysis of the text of Ephesians basically rules that out. I present the argument for this view in another thread. If you wish to critique the argument, please feel free to do so.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=30240

 

[darcy]

The thread on free will kind of got side-tracked onto a different tangent so I thought I'd initiate a thread about the specific issue of free will.

When planning and creating the universe there can only be 2 options on how it would go:

1) The notion that some people were simply born smarter, more pure and intelligent to choose God and the rest were just too stupid and wicked not to.

or: 2) We are all in the same boat, none better than another and only God chooses who will come to him and gives us the pwoer to do his will.

No you can't put limites on God, God can put limites on you !
Are you saying God had only two options? His ways are higher than our ways, His thoughts are higher than our thoughts.

When planning and creating a Universe - I will leave it up to God - I think he has a better idea on how to do it.