Free will or no free will?

[Darrell dunn]

Most do not understand that in the begining we were created as free agents.

Kind of like private contractors, free to choose who we would serve.

And to be drown by God someone has to pray for us.

Then in answer to prayer God draws us to himself, But we still have to choose to follow Him.

In Gen.1:26 God gave man dominion over the earth, putting us in charge here.

That is why Jesus had to come as a man, so that He could get in the line of athority, And He will come back as God in the body of that man to take control of the earth.

Satan has so much athority here because Adam gave it to him.

If you want God in your life YOU have to invite Him.

If God could come and save anyone that he chose then He would come and save us all,
it is his will that none be lost..

2Pet.3:9 not willing that any should perish.

 

[unred typo]

quote by Darrell dunn :

And to be drown by God someone has to pray for us.

I generally agree, except for this statement.
Do you have a scripture for that? Jesus said if he was crucified, he would draw all men to himself. I don’t recall any that say God is waiting for us to pray for them to come.

 

[Darrell dunn]

Understanding that Jesus said that if He be lifted up from the earth,
will I draw all men unto me. John12:32

Also if God were to come and take one of Satans people, with out a man asking him to then Satan could call him a thief,

Man holds the key to all that God can do Here. That is what Jesus ment when He told Peter that He gave him the keys to the kingdom of heaven Mat.16:19.

So pray for the lost family, frends and enemies the country and the goverment.
No greater love has any man than to lie down his life for some one else,

Praying is taking time out of your life for others, Or laying it down.

And love covers a multitude of sins.

 

[beloved57]

Most do not understand that in the begining we were created as free agents.

Kind of like private contractors, free to choose who we would serve.

And to be drown by God someone has to pray for us.

Then in answer to prayer God draws us to himself, But we still have to choose to follow Him.

In Gen.1:26 God gave man dominion over the earth, putting us in charge here.

That is why Jesus had to come as a man, so that He could get in the line of athority, And He will come back as God in the body of that man to take control of the earth.

Satan has so much athority here because Adam gave it to him.

If you want God in your life YOU have to invite Him.

If God could come and save anyone that he chose then He would come and save us all,
it is his will that none be lost..

2Pet.3:9 not willing that any should perish.

This is a false post..No truth anywhere to be found..at tall

 

[beloved57]

The thread on free will kind of got side-tracked onto a different tangent so I thought I'd initiate a thread about the specific issue of free will.

When planning and creating the universe there can only be 2 options on how it would go:

1) The notion that some people were simply born smarter, more pure and intelligent to choose God and the rest were just too stupid and wicked not to.

or: 2) We are all in the same boat, none better than another and only God chooses who will come to him and gives us the pwoer to do his will.

The second option is the only equitable system because it:

1) Eliminates boasting because salvation is a gift from God based on God's election not good works as Romans 9:11-25 tells us
2) Since none of us knows who is elected, salvation is open to anyone who wants it and we are all accountable for our desires
3) It isn't the truth that some of us are better than others. That comes from the sin of pride.
4) It breeds humility and thankfulness that we were given a gift that we know we didn't deserve
5) It shows God's power and soveriegn choice, not ours

So do we have free will? No. We can only respond to what rules us. If we are being drawn by God, then he will make sure we come to him. This is illustrated through Jacob who actually wrestled with God, that is...until God broke his hip. It is also illustrated through Paul's conversion when he no more asked Jesus to come into his life than Jacob did.

So the propensity for man to try to take credit for his faith is disspelled by Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 9:11-25. Faith is a gift from God so that no one can boast."

And: Romans 3:11, "there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God." Only the Holy Spirit gives us the pwoer and desire to seek God as 1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us. So those tempted to blame unbelievers for their unbelief are forgetting that it's only by the grace of God that they themselves were chosen. :wink: That breeds thankfulness and humility rather than boasting and judgment.

And contrary to the thinking of many people, no one has the power to resist God's will because no one is stronger than God, not even Satan. In Matthew chapter 20 Jesus illustrates the paprable of the worker where an employer (God) has the right to decide how he will pay and treat his employess even though humans think we can decide what's fair or not. : Romans 9:11-25 also makes the same point that only God is soveriegn.

So God's plan in option 2 is the only equitable system because it leaves human desire and power out of it. It also makes us all equal before God and breeds humility rather than pride and most iportantly, makes salvation open to anyone who wants it because none of us knows who God's elect are.

Good OP.

While I believe in election and predestination, I don't believe that the Calvinist can furnish the certainty of his/ her election by all the arguments I have heard so far including - how do we know that we are lect - by perservering.

Hmm It is God Himself that gives His people assurance of their salvation so maybe you do not have it..if God has not given you faith to believe it..

 

[Vic C.]

Hi beloved57, I know Darrell fairly well from just being here for a while and I know he can defend himself. I just want to stress that we shouldn't falsely accuse another of making "false posts". Darrell said that man was given dominion over the earth and gave the verse to back it up. No problem there. I agree.

He also said that God's will is that none be lost and backed it up with scripture also. No problem there either.

Lets try something different. Let the forum know what you think is false about his post so it may be discussed/refuted/defended, etc. I think that's the fair thing to do and not just in Darrell's case either... as a general "rule". Thanks.

 

[stranger]

stranger wrote:

[quote:ae31f]While I believe in election and predestination, I don't believe that the Calvinist can furnish the certainty of his/ her election by all the arguments I have heard so far including - how do we know that we are elect - by perservering.

beloved57 wrote:
Hmm It is God Himself that gives His people assurance of their salvation so maybe you do not have it..if God has not given you faith to believe it..[/quote:ae31f]

Hi beloved57,

What I am asking is specifically: what evidence can a Calvinist furnish that he/she is in fact among the elect or predestined? The question remains unanswered.

 

[beloved57]

stranger wrote:

[quote:14a46]While I believe in election and predestination, I don't believe that the Calvinist can furnish the certainty of his/ her election by all the arguments I have heard so far including - how do we know that we are elect - by perservering.

beloved57 wrote:
Hmm It is God Himself that gives His people assurance of their salvation so maybe you do not have it..if God has not given you faith to believe it..

Hi beloved57,

What I am asking is specifically: what evidence can a Calvinist furnish that he/she is in fact among the elect or predestined? The question remains unanswered.[/quote:14a46]

It remains un answered to you because evidently God has not given you faith..Faith is the evidence of things hoped for the assurance of things not seen...

One of the purposes the scriptures were written was for the elect to believe and know that they have eternal life , which duh , is an indication of their election..

1 jn 5

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Duh..believing on christ is a evidence of ones election..

acts 13:

48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

2 thess 2:

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Again your ignorance to this is to me a indication that God has not given you eternal life and is pleased that you dwell in darkness and ignorance...

And to add , you will never percieve who the elect are unless you yourself have been given like preious faith..as in 2 pet 1

1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

titus 1

1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

we the elect love and contend for the same truth jude

3Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

These things can only be percieved by likeminded belivers as when the pillars listened to paul

gal 1:

And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

And unfortunately I do not percieve that grace in you..Just keeping it real...though maybe you are amongst the elect and God has yet to convert you to the truth..

 

[beloved57]

vic says

Hi beloved57, I know Darrell fairly well from just being here for a while and I know he can defend himself. I just want to stress that we shouldn't falsely accuse another of making "false posts". Darrell said that man was given dominion over the earth and gave the verse to back it up. No problem there. I agree.

I read his whole post and mixing truth with error is the worst kind..My Judgment stands on the content of the entire post it is false.sir

True believers must Judge ones testimony of the gospel..

gal 1:

8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

so tell me how can paul call on believers make a call like this without duh judging the content of what is being said or written ?

Use common sense if you have it..

 

[beloved57]

vic says

He also said that God's will is that none be lost and backed it up with scripture also. No problem there either.

Yeah right he backed it up with a perversion of scripture'

in the context peter is saying that God is longsuffering to us ward !!

2 pet 3

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

peter is Identifying him self with those that God is not willing that THEY perish.

Now to whom is the epistle written ? This will give us the usward !!

By this being 2 pet that tells us that there was a 1st peter right ?

Notice to whom its written..

1 pet 1,2

1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Also in the beginning of 2 pet 1:

1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Those who have obtained like precious faith , they obtained by allotment , because they are heirs of salvation as in heb 1

Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Thats who peter is referring to as those God is not willing to perish...And you are as guilty as darrell sir for defending such an unbiblical statement as darrell..

 

[unred typo]

LOL…what were you thinking, Vic? Common sense would tell you that anyone arguing against beloved57 is not one of the elect, which I guess is not you, as well. I guess we are going to the lake of fire together. Bring the marshmallows, I have the pointy sticks. Choose the one you want.... :smt064 :smt074 :smt027

 

[beloved57]

LOL…what were you thinking, Vic? Common sense would tell you that anyone arguing against beloved57 is not one of the elect, which I guess is not you, as well. I guess we are going to the lake of fire together. Bring the marshmallows, I have the pointy sticks. Choose the one you want.... :smt064 :smt074 :smt027

I never said that, I said at this point there is no evidence of you being a elect..Its possible that some elect are on this forum and have not been converted to the truth yet..I have never denied that..But presently you and others teach a false gospel..does not look good though..

 

[unred typo]

quote by beloved57:
I never said that, I said at this point there is no evidence of you being a elect..Its possible that some elect are on this forum and have not been converted to the truth yet..I have never denied that..But presently you and others teach a false gospel..does not look good though..

I was kidding. Add my misrepresenting your view to my list of crimes against your god. Notch it up a few degrees. Apparently, there is no choice but for me to be cast into your fire pit, since I will never accept such a monstrous evil god as the one that you worship. Just call me old fashioned but I believe in a God of love, mercy, faith, judgment and truth.

 

[beloved57]

quote by beloved57:
I never said that, I said at this point there is no evidence of you being a elect..Its possible that some elect are on this forum and have not been converted to the truth yet..I have never denied that..But presently you and others teach a false gospel..does not look good though..

I was kidding. Add my misrepresenting your view to my list of crimes against your god. Notch it up a few degrees. Apparently, there is no choice but for me to be cast into your fire pit, since I will never accept such a monstrous evil god as the one that you worship. Just call me old fashioned but I believe in a God of love, mercy, faith, judgment and truth.

I call you evil and decieved and serving a god of your own filthy imagination sir..

 

[unred typo]

quote by beloved57:

I call you evil and decieved and serving a god of your own filthy imagination sir..

You call me, ‘sir’ yet you show no respect. You call Jesus, ‘Lord’ but claim you don’t have to obey him. Your words are hollow and such a faith is vain and your theology is devoid of truth. Your gospel is not the good news to all mankind of peace, love and joy but empty rhetoric for vain men who believe themselves to be chosen above all others.

I’ll tell you what is evil. Evil is creating beings who have no choice but to die addicted to sins that you could release them of, but you choose not to. Evil is lying to them and pretending that they could repent when you know they cannot. Evil is sending these poor depraved creatures to hell without a fair and true chance to repent, while saving others who are just as deserving of hell because of your sick, demented pleasure of displaying your warped 'goodness'. Evil is Calvinism‘s god.

 

[Vic C.]

OK... everybody take a step back and deep breath before the Mods lock this for a cooling off period.

LOL…what were you thinking, Vic? Common sense would tell you that anyone arguing against beloved57 is not one of the elect, which I guess is not you, as well. I guess we are going to the lake of fire together. Bring the marshmallows, I have the pointy sticks. Choose the one you want.... :smt064 :smt074 :smt027

What, me worried? It was my effort to contain the offensive posting in the hopes that some constructive posting would prevail and Darrell was at least able to defend his position. Instead the guns were pointed at me. It's deja vu all over again. :-? So let me remind you Beloved57, that the insults and attacks stop right here. They're really not needed to make a point.

4 - No Trolling:

You will not post anything that disrupts the peace and harmony of this forum. Don't make inflammatory remarks just to get a response. This will also include posts that put down Christianity in general or any posts considered as blasphemy by staff (this is a CHRISTIAN FORUMS site).

Included is the multiple submission of posts and topics. Please do not flood the site with one copy/paste post after another. (see #9 for more details)

5 - Respect each other's opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities.

6 - No Bashing of other members. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

 

[unred typo]

vic said the rules said:

6 - No Bashing of other members…

Awwww, man… wut phun izzat? You don’t want us to get all boring like those other forums ing: where the only thing that hit’s the fan is the don’t-don’t, :smt018 do you? :wink: :smt015 JK. I guess I can be civil if you insist.

Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

Hey, now you’re talkin! :smt023
Bring it on… :smt066
:smt047

Juuuuust kidding.... :smt105

 

[MarkT]

I never said that, I said at this point there is no evidence of you being a elect..Its possible that some elect are on this forum and have not been converted to the truth yet..I have never denied that..But presently you and others teach a false gospel..does not look good though..

Elected to what? Elected to a position? A seat at the table? Jesus said take the last seat or someone greater than you might come along and you will be forced to give it up. The apostles were chosen. If you think your faith is of equal standing with them, great. Then you're here to serve the sheep. If you say to the sheep, 'You're not elect', then what does that mean? So what? They are the sheep. You're supposed to serve them; give them the words of God, strengthen them. You're not supposed to make them hate you!

 

[francisdesales]

What I am asking is specifically: what evidence can a Calvinist furnish that he/she is in fact among the elect or predestined? The question remains unanswered.

Elect or predestined for what? What does "elect" mean, in Scriptures? Does it mean predestinted to heaven, or predestined to a vocation in the Church? There is precious little in the bible that says men are predestined to eternal glory no matter what they do once they make a declaration of faith to the Lord.

As such, I doubt you'll get your answer.

Regards

 

[mutzrein]

Wow - this has been going a while.

How much free will does a dead man have?

Blessings