MarkT said:
OnFireForChrist said:
Without free will, we are not responsible for our actions, since we have no say in them. Furthermore, then we have to answer the question as to why a just God would will for some eternal unhappiness and then for others eternal happiness, when the Bible says that God is not partial, and that He is good.
My opinion on the matter is that since we are made in God's image, and God has free will, man also has been given free will. Because he has free will, he can choose to cooperate with God, or he can choose to rebel against Him. God creates only good things, because He is goodness Himself. Therefore, it is not far-fetched to ask us to do good, because we are naturally and intrinsically good and capable of doing good, in cooperation with God. Because man is able to do good, it is perverted that he should choose to do evil, and since evil did not originate from God, man is to blame for evil, and therefore is answerable to justice for breaking the Law.
If man did not have a say in the matter, however, there would be no difference in his doing good or evil, as it is not his fault and the blame does not lay with him, as he has no will of his own to act with; the blame is with the will of the one who is controlling man. Since God is good, it is inconceivable to blame God for our evil, as evil has no part in Him, and He wills only good and does only good. The perversion of good has come from us, wherein we sin, and that is why it is just for us to be punished for sin, because we freely have chosen to do evil.
What man in his right mind would 'want' to take full responsibility for his actions in front of God? There's no wisdom in that. Even Adam said, 'the woman gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate.' Even Eve said, 'The serpent beguiled me, and I ate.' But you want the credit for doing good. Well, then you should expect the punishment for doing bad.
I never said I wanted credit for doing good; in fact, it is quite the opposite. My point was that if I sin, it is through my own fault, and not anyone else’s; if I do good, it is because God has done it in me through His grace. On my own, I do only evil; if I cooperate with God, He does the good through me. Goodness itself does not find origin in me, but in God. And I have shown that I would fully take responsibility for my sins; I would not take responsibility entirely for my good actions, but all the credit goes to God alone. It would be just if God punished me for my sins. You have misconstrued what I have said. The whole point of what I said, which you quoted, was to prove that if I am a sinner, it is through my own fault, because God gives us enough graces to avoid sin and to choose Him. If I do good, it is only through God that I can do good, for I can do no good on my own (because grace does not originate from me), but evil. My just actions are not mine, but God’s; my crimes are solely mine and no one else’s. Our true nature is inclined to cooperate with God; our perverse nature is inclined to rebel against Him. It is by our choice alone that we become perverse, because God gives us every grace possible to turn to Him and cooperate with Him.
MarkT said:
You say you believe, but you don't. Pr. 16:9, 'A man's mind plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps.' You say you don't believe it. You say you have freewill. When we tell you, you condemn us. You say it's a damnable heresy. But you are condeming the righteous.
What am I condemning? I am unaware of any evil I have said.
MarkT said:
When you say God didn't make you choose him, we know for sure God didn't choose you to reveal any spiritual truth
. No, He doesn’t make me choose Him, but it is only through His grace can I choose Him. The point is, though, I chose Him – I have the ability to choose Him as much as I have the ability to deny Him. You have not understood properly what I have said, so how can you know that there is no truth in what I am saying? And I can only choose because He has chosen me first, and made the choice available to me. Even more reason for punishment if I do not choose Him, because He has given me everything I need to follow Him.
MarkT said:
Did Peter choose, or was he chosen? Jesus said, 'You did not choose me, but I chose you.' John 15:16 And Ephesians 1:4, Paul says, God has blessed us in Christ, 'even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world.' That tells me we were chosen before we could choose; before we were born in the likeness of men - from the beginning.
The answer is yes to both, but Peter could only choose because God made it possible. We are chosen to be loved, and we are given everything therefore from the fact that we have been initially chosen, and the choice is open to us to choose Him. We have the ability to reject God, contrary to our nature, and sin, and we also have the ability to choose Him as well and requite His love through obedience to Him and cooperation, giving Him glory in all our works through Him. For what is impossible with men is not impossible for God.
MarkT said:
Brothers, let us not be so quick to condemn ourselves. We are justified because we are willing to sacrifice what belongs to the flesh. But you are acting like men who were not saved.
We have only begun to be saved; we are not entirely saved as of yet.
MarkT said:
Like the godless, you are not giving the glory to God. You're not giving him any credit for the works that you do - as if we are not servants. We know a servant does his master's will. Why do you persist in thinking you are doing your own will?
A servant can be wicked or good; a servant can choose to obey his master or rebel against him. If we are obedient to the will of God, we are only doing what we are supposed to do, as such you are saying, and we are good servants; we are wicked servants only by not doing the master’s will, but whose fault is the wickedness, the master’s, or the servant’s? I agree, we are servants; to do God’s will is not to our own merit, and the grace to do good works is only given by God; we can do nothing without God. We derive existence from Him; we would not even be able to choose to serve Him faithfully or to rebel against Him and be wicked servants, enslaved by our sins. The entire point of my post is that we are culpable for our sins, entirely, our sins are the only thing that are truly ours, for all else belongs to God, and we give all our works, which aren’t really ours, to God, to glorify Him, and it is only possible to glorify God with God’s grace. We are nothing.
MarkT said:
When you say you have freewill, then you're saying, when you sin, you sin wilfully, and when you do good, you want all the credit. That's not right.
You’re right, that it’s not right. I never said I wanted credit for my good actions, I want God to take the credit for that because they are rightfully His in justice, because all goodness is rightfully His. All good things belong to Him, but sin has no part in Him, which is why I in my post above only said that if we sin, they do not belong to nor do they come from God, who is good. To take credit for any good that I do would be unjust, for all things that are mine are not really mine, but they all belong to God. I am God’s by justice, for He created me and everything about me, and all things in my possession or that I have access to, all good things, that is, are God’s as well, so it would be wrong for me to steal glory from God, and that is the last thing in the world that I wish to do. But my sins are mine because they are not God’s in any way, shape, or form.
MarkT said:
You're just doing what the world expects; you're openly doing good to receive a reward, like all men.
No, I am not, as I hope you will see in my reply. If I do good, it is not so I can be praised with earthly praise and earthly rewards, but for the love and glory of God; I do good deeds because they are good, because they praise God, because they are in accordance with His will. God forbid that I should begin seeking for worldly rewards like the Pharisees.
MarkT said:
You're practising a religion.
Yes, but I also am practicing the Spirit of the religion, not just the law. The highest law I have to follow is “love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength†and the second is “love your neighbour as yourself.†While those who follow the letter of the law may neglect the spirit of it, which is love, there are also some who neglect the letter of the law to follow a false spirit of it (and there are still others who reject both the law and its Spirit). None of these do I seek to be, and I certainly do not seek praise, honor, and glory, for I don’t feel that I deserve it, seeing as they rightfully belong to Christ, who is my Master. What I do deserve, however, is death for my sins, and I have only more reason to praise the Lord, for He has delivered me from death by His own Blood, and His Divine Mercy and Grace are incredible. Through Him I can do all things; on my own, I will only fall into sin.
MarkT said:
So Jesus said, when you do good, do it in secret. Deeds are in secret, then the reward is from God in secret.
Jesus gave the glory to God for everything he did and everything he said. Let's be imitators of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Amen.
It seems what you have misconstrued is my last paragraph, wherein I was saying what the ultimate conclusion of the argument
against free will was, and therefore why it is
false to believe that we
do not have free will. If I
did hold that belief, that man was not responsible for his actions, and that God was the cause of our evil but not our good, it would be right to rebuke me for that, for it is a false belief. Truly,
God is the cause of all our good, but we are the cause of all our evil. Which is why we must accept punishment for our sins (which are rightfully ours), but give the credit and glory to God for what good deeds we have done (for they are not ours, but justly God’s). Forgive me if I had been unclear, but understand now what I have said, and why, and what I do believe.
