Free will or no free will?

[Bubba]

Thats right francis. I learned that lesson right in Genesis. God said Adam and Eve would die if they ate the fruit but the Serpant said they wouldn't. Well, they ate it, and they didn't die - or so they thought. On the surface, it seems that the Serpant told the truth and that God lied. But only when one realizes that God meant spiritual death instead of physical death does one see that God told the truth, and the Serpent lied.

AH, yes, this is a great example of "death", one that means a severed relationship with God, life Itself, rather than "dead" and unable to do anything but be worm food...

Regards

2 Corinthians 4:4 gives us in idea of what is to be spiritually dead and the understanding of the need to have the blinders removed by God no less: "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." The part that God does is verse 6:"For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ." The efficacious part is that all that are regenerate do say yes to Jesus, because their hearts are now so inclined and the blinders have been removed. God "made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressionsâ€â€it is by grace you have been saved," Eph. 2:6.
Grace, Bubba

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Well, back to free will, there's one thing I do know: God created man sinless, but He also gave man the capacity to choose good or evil. God wants our love, and the only authentic love is love that is freely given. If we do not have the free will to freely love - or not love - God, then the love God wants from us does not exist.

 

[Bubba]

Well, back to free will, there's one thing I do know: God created man sinless, but He also gave man the capacity to choose good or evil. God wants our love, and the only authentic love is love that is freely given. If we do not have the free will to freely love - or not love - God, then the love God wants from us does not exist.

CC,
Have you considered why would God create individuals whom He knew would never say yes to Jesus (He is all knowing,right?) thus spend an eternity in torment? Why would a loving God do such a thing? Is freewill that powerful to influence the Creator to such a terrible outcome?
Grace, Bubba

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Well, back to free will, there's one thing I do know: God created man sinless, but He also gave man the capacity to choose good or evil. God wants our love, and the only authentic love is love that is freely given. If we do not have the free will to freely love - or not love - God, then the love God wants from us does not exist.

CC,
Have you considered why would God create individuals whom He knew would never say yes to Jesus (He is all knowing,right?) thus spend an eternity in torment? Why would a loving God do such a thing? Is freewill that powerful to influence the Creator to such a terrible outcome?
Grace, Bubba

I seem to be blessed with the ability to wrap my head around a concept that most people find difficult: That is, that God can know the future, but also know the free-will choices we make. One does not cancel out the other for me. I have free will, and I can choose; God knows what I am going to choose, but it is still my choice to make.

I have no problem reckoning that out.

.

 

[francisdesales]

Thats right francis. I learned that lesson right in Genesis. God said Adam and Eve would die if they ate the fruit but the Serpant said they wouldn't. Well, they ate it, and they didn't die - or so they thought. On the surface, it seems that the Serpant told the truth and that God lied. But only when one realizes that God meant spiritual death instead of physical death does one see that God told the truth, and the Serpent lied.

AH, yes, this is a great example of "death", one that means a severed relationship with God, life Itself, rather than "dead" and unable to do anything but be worm food...

Regards

2 Corinthians 4:4 gives us in idea of what is to be spiritually dead and the understanding of the need to have the blinders removed by God no less: "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." The part that God does is verse 6:"For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ." The efficacious part is that all that are regenerate do say yes to Jesus, because their hearts are now so inclined and the blinders have been removed. God "made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressionsâ€â€it is by grace you have been saved," Eph. 2:6.
Grace, Bubba

You are equating knowledge of God with a relationship with God... Knowing someone isn't loving someone.

How about Matthew 7:21-24?

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Atheists can "know" lots ABOUT Jesus Christ - but we are not saved by knowledge, but rather faith working in love...

The Bible stresses the love relationship initiated by God, pulling man out of the morass of sin to share in His divine nature. But it IS a relationship and BOTH parties are active to the degree that they are able. The term used by us, "divinization", says it all.

Regards

 

[beloved57]

You are equating knowledge of God with a relationship with God... Knowing someone isn't loving someone.

You must know God to Love Him..

 

[francisdesales]

You are equating knowledge of God with a relationship with God... Knowing someone isn't loving someone.

You must know God to Love Him..

Love doesn't necessary follow from knowledge.

I am pretty sure the devil knows God and has no love for Him...

Why are you arguing such points, anyway?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

....I am pretty sure the devil knows God and has no love for Him....

Bullseye

 

[Bubba]

Atheists can "know" lots ABOUT Jesus Christ - but we are not saved by knowledge, but rather faith working in love...

The Bible stresses the love relationship initiated by God, pulling man out of the morass of sin to share in His divine nature. But it IS a relationship and BOTH parties are active to the degree that they are able. The term used by us, "divinization", says it all.

Francesdesales,
When the individual's heart has been changed by God, we do have a relationship, love and knowledge of Him. It is true that one can have only a knowledge of Him and even have works, yet be not saved, but a believer has had a heart transplant. Ezekial 36:24ff, "" 'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. 30 I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices."

Bubba

 

[BobRyan]

Well, back to free will, there's one thing I do know: God created man sinless, but He also gave man the capacity to choose good or evil. God wants our love, and the only authentic love is love that is freely given. If we do not have the free will to freely love - or not love - God, then the love God wants from us does not exist.

CC,
Have you considered why would God create individuals whom He knew would never say yes to Jesus (He is all knowing,right?) thus spend an eternity in torment? Why would a loving God do such a thing? Is freewill that powerful to influence the Creator to such a terrible outcome?
Grace, Bubba

God created Lucifer - a perfect holy Angel knowing that he would sin not because he HAD to nor because he was "made with a flaw" -- rather because Lucifer chose to sin.

God knew that Lucifer's sin would lead to the loss of 1/3 of the angels and he knew that Adam's sin would lead to his having to sacrifice his OWN SON to redeem mankind.

STILL God "chose to do it" -- that proves God is upholding the principle of free-will at GREAT COST -- which argues against your point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[francisdesales]

Atheists can "know" lots ABOUT Jesus Christ - but we are not saved by knowledge, but rather faith working in love...

The Bible stresses the love relationship initiated by God, pulling man out of the morass of sin to share in His divine nature. But it IS a relationship and BOTH parties are active to the degree that they are able. The term used by us, "divinization", says it all.

Francesdesales,
When the individual's heart has been changed by God, we do have a relationship, love and knowledge of Him. It is true that one can have only a knowledge of Him and even have works, yet be not saved, but a believer has had a heart transplant. Ezekial 36:24ff, "" 'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. 30 I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices."

Yes, I agree with you.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

God created Lucifer - a perfect holy Angel knowing that he would sin not because he HAD to nor because he was "made with a flaw" -- rather because Lucifer chose to sin.

God knew that Lucifer's sin would lead to the loss of 1/3 of the angels and he knew that Adam's sin would lead to his having to sacrifice his OWN SON to redeem mankind.

STILL God "chose to do it" -- that proves God is upholding the principle of free-will at GREAT COST -- which argues against your point.

in Christ,

Bob

Well-said. Can someone with kids imagine being in such a situation, knowing the child will rebel and hate you - while you still love them? Yes, it is a great cost - if we can say such things about God.

Regards

 

[MarkT]

Without free will, we are not responsible for our actions, since we have no say in them. Furthermore, then we have to answer the question as to why a just God would will for some eternal unhappiness and then for others eternal happiness, when the Bible says that God is not partial, and that He is good.

My opinion on the matter is that since we are made in God's image, and God has free will, man also has been given free will. Because he has free will, he can choose to cooperate with God, or he can choose to rebel against Him. God creates only good things, because He is goodness Himself. Therefore, it is not far-fetched to ask us to do good, because we are naturally and intrinsically good and capable of doing good, in cooperation with God. Because man is able to do good, it is perverted that he should choose to do evil, and since evil did not originate from God, man is to blame for evil, and therefore is answerable to justice for breaking the Law.

If man did not have a say in the matter, however, there would be no difference in his doing good or evil, as it is not his fault and the blame does not lay with him, as he has no will of his own to act with; the blame is with the will of the one who is controlling man. Since God is good, it is inconceivable to blame God for our evil, as evil has no part in Him, and He wills only good and does only good. The perversion of good has come from us, wherein we sin, and that is why it is just for us to be punished for sin, because we freely have chosen to do evil.

What man in his right mind would 'want' to take full responsibility for his actions in front of God? There's no wisdom in that. Even Adam said, 'the woman gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate.' Even Eve said, 'The serpent beguiled me, and I ate.' But you want the credit for doing good. Well, then you should expect the punishment for doing bad.

You say you believe, but you don't. Pr. 16:9, 'A man's mind plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps.' You say you don't believe it. You say you have freewill. When we tell you, you condemn us. You say it's a damnable heresy. But you are condeming the righteous.

When you say God didn't make you choose him, we know for sure God didn't choose you to reveal any spiritual truth. Did Peter choose, or was he chosen? Jesus said, 'You did not choose me, but I chose you.' John 15:16 And Ephesians 1:4, Paul says, God has blessed us in Christ, 'even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world.' That tells me we were chosen before we could choose; before we were born in the likeness of men - from the beginning.

Brothers, let us not be so quick to condemn ourselves. We are justified because we are willing to sacrifice what belongs to the flesh. But you are acting like men who were not saved. Like the godless, you are not giving the glory to God. You're not giving him any credit for the works that you do - as if we are not servants. We know a servant does his master's will. Why do you persist in thinking you are doing your own will?

When you say you have freewill, then you're saying, when you sin, you sin wilfully, and when you do good, you want all the credit. That's not right. You're just doing what the world expects; you're openly doing good to receive a reward, like all men. You're practising a religion. So Jesus said, when you do good, do it in secret. Deeds are in secret, then the reward is from God in secret.

Jesus gave the glory to God for everything he did and everything he said. Let's be imitators of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[MarkT]

I know you have a will, but you are not your own; you were bought by the blood of Christ. If you are in Christ, then stay in Christ, and act like men who are certain of their salvation, not like unstable men who are uncertain in their minds and in their thinking.

 

[beloved57]

You are equating knowledge of God with a relationship with God... Knowing someone isn't loving someone.

You must know God to Love Him..

Love doesn't necessary follow from knowledge.

I am pretty sure the devil knows God and has no love for Him...

That does not contradict the point though..Why are you arguing such points, anyway?

Why not ? you dont believe loving God is important ?
You must know God to Love Him..

 

[beloved57]

What in blazes has that got to do with whether or not we have free will !!!

dead folk dont have a freewill do they ? Next time you go to a funeral ask the person in the casket to use their freewill lol..

 

[beloved57]

STILL God "chose to do it" -- that proves God is upholding the principle of free-will at GREAT COST -- which argues against your point.

Only Gods will is free, all others are under His dominion..He ruleth over all..

daniel 4:

35And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

 

[turnorburn]

You said this? Only Gods will is free, all others are under His dominion..He ruleth over all..

Care to guess again, maybe you should ask your Pastor :smt045

 

[francisdesales]

You must know God to Love Him..

Of course. But knowing Him doesn't mean we love Him. The devil knows God.

How many times do I have to write that before it gets through?

 

[Bubba]

Yes, I agree with you.

Francisdesales,
So then you agree that when God changes a person heart they are now inclined to Jesus and will always say yes to His offer of salvation because that is now the desire of their heart and thus the Holy Spirit is efficacious?
Bubba