Free will or no free will?

[mondar]

So again, one cannot love God if they dont know Him..

One simple yes or no question will do...

Does the devil love God?

Maybe I should keep my two cents out, but that aint a yes or no question. I can see it coming that you are putting a slight twist on beloved57s statement.

 

[beloved57]

One simple yes or no question will do...

Does the devil love God?

what does that have to do with the fact that one cannot Love God unless you know Him ?

ane the answer to your question is no the devil dont love God and God dont love the devil..furthermore since you brough it up, God dont love the devils children either, the seed of the serpent..gen 3:

15And I will put enmity[hate] between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

and the devils seed dont love christ..jn 8:

42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

So the truth still stands..one cannot love God lest He knows God..

 

[beloved57]

Where is the Scriptural evidence of "true believers are no longer in churches...shall it be in the day of Christ return"...?

where is the scriptural evidence that they are in churches..God calls out His true children from false religon before He comes..rev 18:

4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

and besides, you dont believe scriptures any way..

 

[Bubba]

Where is the Scriptural evidence of "true believers are no longer in churches...shall it be in the day of Christ return"...?

where is the scriptural evidence that they are in churches..God calls out His true children from false religon before He comes..rev 18:

4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

and besides, you dont believe scriptures any way..

Are you influenced by Harold Camping's teaching?
Bubba

 

[francisdesales]

So the truth still stands..one cannot love God lest He knows God..

And the truth still stands...one who knows God does not necessarily love God...

 

[francisdesales]

where is the scriptural evidence that they are in churches..God calls out His true children from false religon before He comes..rev 18:

4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

First, perhaps you should re-read the beginning of Revelation on the Scriptural evidence of believers in the Church...

And secondly, according to you, God calls His people out of the Church He established, as per Revelation 18??? It is the Church that will receive the plagues??? No longer is the Church the Body of Christ???

Wow... :o

and besides, you dont believe scriptures any way..

I believe Scriptures are the inspired word of God. I also believe you don't know what the Scriptures are talking about in Revelation. That's what happens when you interject false teachings and invent your own theology.

Regards

 

[mondar]

Where is the Scriptural evidence of "true believers are no longer in churches...shall it be in the day of Christ return"...?

where is the scriptural evidence that they are in churches..God calls out His true children from false religon before He comes..rev 18:

4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

and besides, you dont believe scriptures any way..

Are you influenced by Harold Camping's teaching?
Bubba

Hmmm, good question. Mondar looks accross the room to see what beloved57 will say.

 

[beloved57]

Are you influenced by Harold Camping's teaching?
Bubba

I consider harold camping a false teacher, but i agee on some of the things he presents..but nevertheless he preaches a false gospel..

I believed the way i believed for over 15 yrs now..

 

[beloved57]

I believe Scriptures are the inspired word of God.

You still dont believe it, lip service is all..

 

[francisdesales]

I believe Scriptures are the inspired word of God.

You still dont believe it, lip service is all..

:-?

 

[Vic C.]

Are you influenced by Harold Camping's teaching?
Bubba

I consider harold camping a false teacher, but i agee on some of the things he presents..but nevertheless he preaches a false gospel..

I believed the way i believed for over 15 yrs now..

While this has little to do with the topic at hand, I too agree much of his teaching is false, including the teaching that the church age is over. I also disagree with his habit of date setting, including his belief that the world will end in 2011 or 2012, whatever that date is.

You still dont believe it, lip service is all..

There is also no need for personal attacks like this. People, lets address issues, not persons.

 

[beloved57]

While this has little to do with the topic at hand, I too agree much of his teaching is false, including the teaching that the church age is over

No , that aspect is true, I believed that before i knew he did..

I also disagree with his habit of date setting, including his belief that the world will end in 2011 or 2012, whatever that date is

.

Yes, that is false teaching..the 2nd coming can occur any day now, all things are set..I personally dont think we will be around until 2011 or 2012 just a hunch though..

You still dont believe it, lip service is all..
There is also no need for personal attacks like this. People, lets address issues, not persons.

Not a attack at all..Just fact..

 

[Rick W]

There is also no need for personal attacks like this. People, lets address issues, not persons.

Good advice.

Not a attack at all..Just fact..

Fact:
If this continues the ToS will be enforced.

 

[MarkT]

It seems what you have misconstrued is my last paragraph, wherein I was saying what the ultimate conclusion of the argument against free will was, and therefore why it is false to believe that we do not have free will. If I did hold that belief, that man was not responsible for his actions, and that God was the cause of our evil but not our good, it would be right to rebuke me for that, for it is a false belief. Truly, God is the cause of all our good, but we are the cause of all our evil. Which is why we must accept punishment for our sins (which are rightfully ours), but give the credit and glory to God for what good deeds we have done (for they are not ours, but justly God’s). Forgive me if I had been unclear, but understand now what I have said, and why, and what I do believe.

Ok. But listen and tell me if you agree. Were you crucified with Christ? Then you are dead! Bring it back into your memory. Remember who you are. Hopefully you realize you don't exist in the world of 'choosing' anymore. Outside temptations? Yep. Unavoidable piledrivers; they are everywhere. But you are dead! Sin can only work death in your mortal body. But we are alive in Christ! Yes you are responsible for your sins, but Christ is our advocate. The Spirit keeps reminding us to pray the Lord's prayer. We have become slaves of God. Romans 6:22 You are a new you.

If you are a new you, then I would expect godly things from you. Godly words, not meanderings about 'choosing' and 'choice'. Let the world choose. We are slaves. We are the lowest of the low. Our right hand doesn't even know what our left hand is doing. We're prisoners. We are the foolishness of world. For it pleased God through the folly of what we preach, to save those who believe. 1 Cor. 1:21

 

[bleitzel]

To get back to the OP

The thread on free will kind of got side-tracked onto a different tangent so I thought I'd initiate a thread about the specific issue of free will.

When planning and creating the universe there can only be 2 options on how it would go:

1) The notion that some people were simply born smarter, more pure and intelligent to choose God and the rest were just too stupid and wicked not to.

or: 2) We are all in the same boat, none better than another and only God chooses who will come to him and gives us the pwoer to do his will.

The second option is the only equitable system

Heidi, this could have all been solved on the first page. The two options you present are not polar opposites, there exists other options you have not listed, icluding the correct one imho.

3) or 2a?) We are all born with capabilities, the capability to love, to hate, to rationalize, to emote. We are all given the ability to respond to stimulii from the outside world. How we choose to respond to that stimulii, say out of hate or out of love, is on us. Now it is true that people are born with different capability levels, and likewise God judges us according to what he has given us.

God has given us the ability to choose whether or not to humble ourselves before Him and obey Him or not. To humble oneself is not self aggrandizement. It does not come from purity or intelligence. It does not come from anything good about ourselves so that we can not boast. It comes from recognizing God's awesome power and our pitifulness.

 

[Godfirst633]

Hey! I'm new to this site and to this thread. There is 75 pages worth of comments on this blog, so I don't really have the time to devote to reading all of them, but just based on the subject of the blog, I would like to add another opinion into the mix. When God created man, He did so, because He wanted beings that could love Him because they want to. He never wanted robots that had no choice but to love Him. Just like, none of us want spouses that robotically love us, but they love us because of their choosing. We all have free choice, now that's not to say that God didn't know our choice before we made it, but the point is that God made us to have a choice. In all walks of life, there are choices. It is God's desire that all would come to repentance (as scripture says), but God knows that not everyone will. If God imposed his will on us and we had no choice at all, then we wouldn't truely love Him. In short, God is a lover looking for a lover!

God Bless
Michael

 

[turnorburn]

Hey! I'm new to this site and to this thread. There is 75 pages worth of comments on this blog, so I don't really have the time to devote to reading all of them, but just based on the subject of the blog, I would like to add another opinion into the mix. When God created man, He did so, because He wanted beings that could love Him because they want to. He never wanted robots that had no choice but to love Him. Just like, none of us want spouses that robotically love us, but they love us because of their choosing. We all have free choice, now that's not to say that God didn't know our choice before we made it, but the point is that God made us to have a choice. In all walks of life, there are choices. It is God's desire that all would come to repentance (as scripture says), but God knows that not everyone will. If God imposed his will on us and we had no choice at all, then we wouldn't truely love Him. In short, God is a lover looking for a lover!

God Bless
Michael

Finally a man with common sense, can we put this thread to bed now? Michael's right 75 pages Sheesh! :smt015

 

[MarkT]

Hey! I'm new to this site and to this thread. There is 75 pages worth of comments on this blog, so I don't really have the time to devote to reading all of them, but just based on the subject of the blog, I would like to add another opinion into the mix. When God created man, He did so, because He wanted beings that could love Him because they want to. He never wanted robots that had no choice but to love Him. Just like, none of us want spouses that robotically love us, but they love us because of their choosing. We all have free choice, now that's not to say that God didn't know our choice before we made it, but the point is that God made us to have a choice. In all walks of life, there are choices. It is God's desire that all would come to repentance (as scripture says), but God knows that not everyone will. If God imposed his will on us and we had no choice at all, then we wouldn't truely love Him. In short, God is a lover looking for a lover!

God Bless
Michael

No. Sorry. That's not love. That's something I can't even comprehend. How can you force yourself to love God? Love comes from within. It's not a mental decision. It's not something you can flip on like you would turn on a light. No. God pours his love into you. Jesus said the great commandment in the law is, 'You shall love God with all your heart, and with all your soul and with all your mind.' Assuming the love of God is in you, and you know his Son, then you will understand.

Besides that, I've never heard of anyone choosing to love someone. How does that work? First you decide, and then by the power of your will, love comes into your heart?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. You probably mean staying with you should be a voluntary decision, and likewise it should be a voluntary decision on your part to stay with your spouse. But in that case, you're not talking about love. You're just talking about your freewill. But what about your commitment?

I would say it's irrelevant whether you have freewill or not. You have zero understanding.

The ones along the path are those you have heard the word of God and don't understand it. So whether you want to love God or not, the devil takes the word away, that they may not believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

 

[MarkT]

Anyone who says they can choose to not love God, doesn't love God, and never loved God in the first place.

 

[bleitzel]

No. Sorry. That's not love. That's something I can't even comprehend. How can you force yourself to love God? Love comes from within. It's not a mental decision. It's not something you can flip on like you would turn on a light. No. God pours his love into you. Jesus said the great commandment in the law is, 'You shall love God with all your heart, and with all your soul and with all your mind.' Assuming the love of God is in you, and you know his Son, then you will understand.

Besides that, I've never heard of anyone choosing to love someone. How does that work? First you decide, and then by the power of your will, love comes into your heart?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. You probably mean staying with you should be a voluntary decision, and likewise it should be a voluntary decision on your part to stay with your spouse. But in that case, you're not talking about love. You're just talking about your freewill. But what about your commitment?

I would say it's irrelevant whether you have freewill or not. You have zero understanding.

The ones along the path are those you have heard the word of God and don't understand it. So whether you want to love God or not, the devil takes the word away, that they may not believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Mark, have you ever been married? Love is a daily choice. You've gotta know this. If you believe that to love God, God must first pour His love into you, and He only does that to some and not to all, and that the only possible reaction to all this is for the person to love God back, then that is exactly the kind of robot love Godfirst was writing about.

And I think you're misunderstanding the parable of the sower.