Free will or no free will?

[beloved57]

It's hard to avoid free will teaching.

Its from the devil..

Does that mean its alright to obey the deeds of the flesh but not alright to believe the word of God?


turnorburn

when believing the doctrine of freewill, you are obeying the deeds of the flesh..

 

[francisdesales]

It's hard to avoid free will teaching.

Its from the devil..

No, it's from Scriptures. Over and over, man is commanded to freely obey the Will of God. How can we be told to do something we CANNOT do???

This has nothing to do with the impetus that God gives us TO obey, but whether we use the gift God gives us in the first place. We both know we cannot obey God without God's graces. But we DO have the choice to use Grace or not.

Regards

 

[duval]

At long last I agree with Francis--God bless, Duval

 

[beloved57]

No, it's from Scriptures

mans freewill is never mentioned in scripture..But Gods is..eph 1:

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

 

[beloved57]

No, it's from Scriptures. Over and over, man is commanded to freely obey the Will of God

Two things..the word phrase freely obey is never used in scripture, you made it up..and God commanding something to be done, then its done by the power of Gods command..

ps 111:

9He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and reverend is his name.

His covenant promises brings redemption to the His own elect..He sends redemption unto His people..

ps 148:

5Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

christians are Gods new creation by His commandment..

ps 102:

18This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the LORD.

ps 33:

9For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

2 cor 4:

6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

So obviously you under estimate the commands of a Sovereign God..mans will is subservient to It..

dan 4:

35And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

 

[Drew]

No, it's from Scriptures

mans freewill is never mentioned in scripture..But Gods is..eph 1:

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

How do you know the "we" refers to all Christians? Please be specific. I have been quite specific in another thread in respect to making a case that the "we" here refers to a small set of New Testament saints.

In fact, if you also look at verse 11, it already becomes clear that the "we" cannot mean all Christians:

In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory

Paul is not making a generalization here. The "we" are "the first to hope in Christ". He is talking about a small set of people and so we cannot draw any general conclusion about absence of human free will. For more detail, the reader can go here:

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=33582

 

[Rick W]

Why must it be either/or and not both/and when clearly scripture supports both? Why must man's freewill be against the sovereignty of God? Clearly man chose another path and God destroyed the earth by flood. I don't think man was sovereign here. He chose and suffered the consequence of the judgment of God. His judgment is unalterable. His will/judgment shall be done for who can stand against it?
Choose Christ and be judged with eternal life. Choose man and be judged everlasting destruction. Where is God's sovereignty altered? Only if man can escape the fire of God can he claim sovereignty.
Can one be destined by God for servitude? Certainly. Can one be destined as a vessel of wrath or a vessel of life? Certainly. Can one choose to reject God? Happens all the time. Can one choose to circumvent God's judgment?
No

 

[beloved57]

How do you know the "we" refers to all Christians? Please be specific.

paul writes his epistles to christians..we means he identfies himself with the ones he is writing..

eph 1:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

God has not chosen all mankind in christ, but men of different races..Jews, gentiles..black men, white men..of different ethnic groups..

 

[beloved57]

Why must man's freewill be against the sovereignty of God?

Because scripture no where teaches mans will is free..But only Gods, for only He is Sovereign..

 

[Drew]

How do you know the "we" refers to all Christians? Please be specific.

paul writes his epistles to christians..we means he identfies himself with the ones he is writing..

No. Paul is not writing this letter to all Christians. And here is my evidence:

1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Now, where is your evidence that he is writing to all Christians?

 

[beloved57]

In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory

Paul is not making a generalization here

He is making a definite statement about a specific people vs 4

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Those who trust , are those who do so because of Gods Glory..not their freewill vs

12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory

This is the glory of His Sovereign grace..

6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

This Sovereign grace made the chosen ones accepted in the beloved..not mans freewill..

 

[Drew]

In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory

Paul is not making a generalization here

He is making a definite statement about a specific people vs 4

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

We agree. Paul is making a statement about a definite group of people.

Those who trust , are those who do so because of Gods Glory..not their freewill vs

12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory

This very text shows that Paul is not talking about "those who trust" through all the ages. Instead, as Paul's own words testify, he is talking about we who are the first to hope. He is talking about a small set of New Testament saints. He is not talking about anything beyond that

 

[Paidion]

mans freewill is never mentioned in scripture..But Gods is..eph 1:

Scripture is clear that man has the ability to choose.

The apostles were able to choose:

Acts 15:22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas.

Acts 15:25 it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul...

Paul also had the ability to choose:

Philippians 1:22 If it is to be life in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell

The ability to choose is all that is meant by "free will". If we are free to choose, then our choices have their origin in us; they are not caused by God or anything else, though our choices might be influenced by God or by other people. Any of our actions which are caused, are clearly beyond our control, and are therefore not choices.

 

[MarkT]

No, it's from Scriptures. Over and over, man is commanded to freely obey the Will of God. How can we be told to do something we CANNOT do???

This has nothing to do with the impetus that God gives us TO obey, but whether we use the gift God gives us in the first place. We both know we cannot obey God without God's graces. But we DO have the choice to use Grace or not.

Man is commanded to obey the word of God.

As for freewill, let's say we have freewill. So what's the point? It's like saying man can sin. So what?

Shouldn't we understand Jesus, when he prayed, 'My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt', that Jesus knew the Father would answer his prayer, that the Father would do for his Son as he prayed? Yet he prayed, 'if it be possible'. Could the Father cancel what he willed from the beginning? Yep.

But, nevertheless, Jesus prayed, 'not as I will, but as thou wilt' ie. past tense. This tells us the 'cup', which represents what would be, refering to his death on the cross, was foreordained.

So Jesus, knowing his death was declared from the beginning, also knew God could and would take the cup away. Yet he prayed, 'not as I will, but as thou wilt'.

In this way, and in his teachings, Jesus told us that all things are subject to the Father's will, and that all the things that we were told will come to pass, will come to pass by his will. And when we pray, we should pray, 'not as we will, but as thou wilt. Indeed we do. We pray, 'Thy will be done', in subjection, knowing he has willed what will be. He has even willed our prayer, in a way, because we are his sons, and he has given us his Spirit, and he has made his will known to us, and our desire is to do his will, and his will is that we should pray the prayer Jesus gave us.

Jesus said, no one can snatch us from the Father's hand. This is what our Father has willed.

 

[beloved57]

Scripture is clear that man has the ability to choose.

No scripture isnt..man cannot choose to come to Jesus christ..jn 6:

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

freewill is a myth..

 

[beloved57]

In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory

Paul is not making a generalization here

He is making a definite statement about a specific people vs 4

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

We agree. Paul is making a statement about a definite group of people.

Those who trust , are those who do so because of Gods Glory..not their freewill vs

12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory

This very text shows that Paul is not talking about "those who trust" through all the ages. Instead, as Paul's own words testify, he is talking about we who are the first to hope. He is talking about a small set of New Testament saints. He is not talking about anything beyond that

You continue to reject scripture..

 

[francisdesales]

At long last I agree with Francis--God bless, Duval

Ah, come on, we agree on much more than that!!!

Really, we tend to argue over the areas we may disagree, but I'd wager that we agree more often than not.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

No, it's from Scriptures. Over and over, man is commanded to freely obey the Will of God. How can we be told to do something we CANNOT do???

This has nothing to do with the impetus that God gives us TO obey, but whether we use the gift God gives us in the first place. We both know we cannot obey God without God's graces. But we DO have the choice to use Grace or not.

Man is commanded to obey the word of God.

As for freewill, let's say we have freewill. So what's the point? It's like saying man can sin. So what?

Shouldn't we understand Jesus, when he prayed, 'My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt', that Jesus knew the Father would answer his prayer, that the Father would do for his Son as he prayed? Yet he prayed, 'if it be possible'. Could the Father cancel what he willed from the beginning? Yep.

But, nevertheless, Jesus prayed, 'not as I will, but as thou wilt' ie. past tense. This tells us the 'cup', which represents what would be, refering to his death on the cross, was foreordained.

So Jesus, knowing his death was declared from the beginning, also knew God could and would take the cup away. Yet he prayed, 'not as I will, but as thou wilt'.

In this way, and in his teachings, Jesus told us that all things are subject to the Father's will, and that all the things that we were told will come to pass, will come to pass by his will. And when we pray, we should pray, 'not as we will, but as thou wilt. Indeed we do. We pray, 'Thy will be done', in subjection, knowing he has willed what will be. He has even willed our prayer, in a way, because we are his sons, and he has given us his Spirit, and he has made his will known to us, and our desire is to do his will, and his will is that we should pray the prayer Jesus gave us.

Mark,

I think the Church teaches that Jesus has two wills, a divine and a human nature, the latter ALWAYS being subject to the former. WE are not in that boat. As we know, we can sin, and sometimes, God's grace allows us to NOT sin. I think the lesson to draw from the Garden is that men CAN follow the will of God, even when it involves terrible suffering. But we also know that our human wills sometimes refuse to obey the Father.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Scripture is clear that man has the ability to choose.

No scripture isnt..man cannot choose to come to Jesus christ..jn 6:

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

freewill is a myth..

You are yet again misinterpreting Scriptures. Because your anthropology has man below dumb creatures, naturally, man cannot do anything....

However, the verse above doesn't say that man cannot choose God. It says man cannot choose God WITHOUT GOD'S GRACE... Only by being drawn can man choose God.

Don't be afraid of freewill. God created it and gave it to man.

Regards

 

[Paidion]

No scripture isnt..man cannot choose to come to Jesus christ..jn 6:
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

freewill is a myth..

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever WILL, let him take the water of life freely.

Whoever wills may take of the water of life freely.

Notice the underlined words? Thus FREE WILL!