Free will or no free will?

[beloved57]

No scripture isnt..man cannot choose to come to Jesus christ..jn 6:
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

freewill is a myth..

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever WILL, let him take the water of life freely.

Whoever wills may take of the water of life freely.

Notice the underlined words? Thus FREE WILL!

Well, a dead man cannot will or hear can he ? So, these verses apply to those already spiritually alive..

ps 110:

3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

so still..Jn 6:

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day

no man can come..means he has no freewill..

 

[Drew]

No scripture isnt..man cannot choose to come to Jesus christ..jn 6:
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

freewill is a myth..

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever WILL, let him take the water of life freely.

Whoever wills may take of the water of life freely.

Notice the underlined words? Thus FREE WILL!

Well, a dead man cannot will or hear can he ? So, these verses apply to those already spiritually alive..

This notion that the lost are "dead" is neither supported by the Scriptures nor by the manifest facts of everyday life. Calvinists will often take references to being "spiritually" dead and deform them into claims that entail almost a complete mental deadness.

Well, we all know that the lost are not mentally dead. They go to their jobs and add 2 + 2 and come up with 4 like the rest of us.

As we have seen in a number of threads, the fact that a person is inherently unable to love God does not imply that he cannot recognize the existence of this incapacity and accept God's grace to fix it.

 

[beloved57]

This notion that the lost are "dead" is neither supported

That men are dead spiritually prior to an act of the power of God is supported by scripture..

eph 2:

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

lk 9:

60Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

 

[Drew]

This notion that the lost are "dead" is neither supported

That men are dead spiritually prior to an act of the power of God is supported by scripture..

eph 2:

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

lk 9:

60Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

Please read what I post. I am responding to the claim that being "spiritually" dead means that one cannot recognize that state and accept grace to remedy it. I never, ever, ever stated that men are not spiritually dead in their natural state.

 

[beloved57]

Please read what I post.

I did..now reread what i posted..

 

[turnorburn]

No scripture isnt..man cannot choose to come to Jesus christ..jn 6:
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

freewill is a myth..

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever WILL, let him take the water of life freely.

Whoever wills may take of the water of life freely.

Notice the underlined words? Thus FREE WILL!

Well, a dead man cannot will or hear can he ? So, these verses apply to those already spiritually alive..

ps 110:

3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

so still..Jn 6:

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day

no man can come..means he has no freewill..

What in the world does a dead man have to do with this discussion?

 

[beloved57]

What in the world does a dead man have to do with this discussion?

In case you are not aware, men are dead spiritually..hence they can will nothing spiritually..they can accept nothing spiritually, cannot hear or see nothing spiritually..hence freewill is a myth..

 

[Drew]

What in the world does a dead man have to do with this discussion?

In case you are not aware, men are dead spiritually..hence they can will nothing spiritually..they can accept nothing spiritually, cannot hear or see nothing spiritually..hence freewill is a myth..

This is manifestly incorrect reasoning. You are basically making this kind of argument:

1. Fred is spiritually dead.
2. Therefore, Fred has no free will.

This reasoning contains an unstated assumption - that "spiritual" deadness necessitates complete cognitive deadness - and by implication, the lack of free will.

You will have us believe that because a person cannot love God or respond to spiritual truths, therefore their decision to have Coke instead of Pepsi must have been fore-ordained in the mists of time.

Who else believes this?

 

[beloved57]

This is manifestly incorrect reasoning. You are basically making this kind of argument:

1. Fred is spiritually dead.
2. Therefore, Fred has no free will.

fred has a will, but its not free and its not spiritual..he is dead spiritually..

all men by nature are dead spiritually..eph 2:

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

A dead man is helpless..the next time you go to a funeral..offer the dead person something and notice what response you recieve..

 

[Drew]

A dead man is helpless..the next time you go to a funeral..offer the dead person something and notice what response you recieve..

The scriptures never state that the lost are dead - it states that they are spiritually dead, or other words to that effect. If your argument is correct - if the lost are dead in the same way a corpse is dead - then there are billions of stone-dead people walking around today. They drive cars. They drink beer. They play golf. They eat food. They ride their bikes.

And yet, to follow your line of reasoning - they are dead.

 

[turnorburn]

Then how did Fred become a Mormon or a Jehovah's Witness, they are spirit driven forces are they not?


turnorburn

 

[beloved57]

The scriptures never state that the lost are dead

well in that case..sure where the scripture specifically says the lost are not dead ..

 

[beloved57]

Then how did Fred become a Mormon or a Jehovah's Witness, they are spirit driven forces are they not?


turnorburn

Every person is what God designed for them to be..and believe what He designed them to believe..

 

[Drew]

The scriptures never state that the lost are dead

well in that case..sure where the scripture specifically says the lost are not dead ..

beloved57, are you really aware of what you are saying? Do you really need the Scriptures to reach a conclusion that there are living human beings - people who are "not dead" - who are lost?

It is obvious that the lost are not dead. I will walk past dozens of them tomorrow at work. And they will be not be lying stone-dead on the floor.

 

[beloved57]

people who are "not dead" - who are lost?

lk 15:

32It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

 

[MarkT]

No, it's from Scriptures. Over and over, man is commanded to freely obey the Will of God. How can we be told to do something we CANNOT do???

This has nothing to do with the impetus that God gives us TO obey, but whether we use the gift God gives us in the first place. We both know we cannot obey God without God's graces. But we DO have the choice to use Grace or not.

Man is commanded to obey the word of God.

As for freewill, let's say we have freewill. So what's the point? It's like saying man can sin. So what?

Shouldn't we understand Jesus, when he prayed, 'My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt', that Jesus knew the Father would answer his prayer, that the Father would do for his Son as he prayed? Yet he prayed, 'if it be possible'. Could the Father cancel what he willed from the beginning? Yep.

But, nevertheless, Jesus prayed, 'not as I will, but as thou wilt' ie. past tense. This tells us the 'cup', which represents what would be, refering to his death on the cross, was foreordained.

So Jesus, knowing his death was declared from the beginning, also knew God could and would take the cup away. Yet he prayed, 'not as I will, but as thou wilt'.

In this way, and in his teachings, Jesus told us that all things are subject to the Father's will, and that all the things that we were told will come to pass, will come to pass by his will. And when we pray, we should pray, 'not as we will, but as thou wilt. Indeed we do. We pray, 'Thy will be done', in subjection, knowing he has willed what will be. He has even willed our prayer, in a way, because we are his sons, and he has given us his Spirit, and he has made his will known to us, and our desire is to do his will, and his will is that we should pray the prayer Jesus gave us.

Mark,

I think the Church teaches that Jesus has two wills, a divine and a human nature, the latter ALWAYS being subject to the former. WE are not in that boat. As we know, we can sin, and sometimes, God's grace allows us to NOT sin. I think the lesson to draw from the Garden is that men CAN follow the will of God, even when it involves terrible suffering. But we also know that our human wills sometimes refuse to obey the Father.

Regards

Well, Jesus spoke of his will but I don't recall him ever saying he had two wills. Now if you say the lesson is men can follow the will of God, then it is not his will that they are doing, but they are doing their own will. Now Jesus wasn't sent to do his own will. He was sent to do the Father's will. Knowing the Father's will, he prayed, 'if it be possible, let this cup pass from me', and he left it with God. Then he prayed a second time, 'My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, thy will be done.' So we see it's not a case of following the will of God but of accepting the will of God. Now we know that it is the will of God that those who believe in the Son shall be saved. And we accept his will. We believe. Likewise we say, 'Thy will be done.'

It's a matter of submitting to God's righteousness. Not choosing. As Paul wrote, 'For being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.' Ro. 10:3

 

[francisdesales]

Well, Jesus spoke of his will but I don't recall him ever saying he had two wills.

The action in the Garden speaks of two wills, doesn't it? First, Jesus was God, so He had a divine will, a will that CANNOT be different than the Father's, unless you believe there are more than one God. Secondly, Jesus was a man in ALL ways but sin. Man has a will, does he not? Thus, the Christ is a Being, God and man united, that has two wills.

Now if you say the lesson is men can follow the will of God, then it is not his will that they are doing, but they are doing their own will.

Not sure I follow, Mark. If I do God's will, and part of me would rather do something different, am I not uniting my will with the Father's?

Now Jesus wasn't sent to do his own will.

That is because there is only ONE divine will, Mark. Unless you subscribe to two divine natures...

It's a matter of submitting to God's righteousness. Not choosing.

Please explain the difference. I do not see the distinction. If I am submitting to God, am I not choosing to do so?

Regards

 

[beloved57]

The action in the Garden speaks of two wills, doesn't it? First, Jesus was God, so He had a divine will, a will that CANNOT be different than the Father's, unless you believe there are more than one God. Secondly, Jesus was a man in ALL ways but sin. Man has a will, does he not? Thus, the Christ is a Being, God and man united, that has two wills.

In this sense, yes There is two wills..this is seen vivdly in here:

lk 22:

42Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

If I am submitting to God, am I not choosing to do so?

Regards

All men and devils submit to Gods Sovereign will..He is Sovereign..what ever choices you make, are according to Gods will..If you choose to go out and murder someone, guess what ? Yep, you guessed it..It was Gods will..If you rape a women..it was ordained by God..

Gods Sovereign Will reigns Supreme over all..

ps 103:

19The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.

 

[beloved57]

As for freewill, let's say we have freewill. So what's the point? It's like saying man can sin. So what?

You may man has a freewill..but the scriputre never says that..In fact, that type of thinking is condemned by scriptures..james 4:

15For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.

16But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil

 

[Drew]

You may man has a freewill..but the scriputre never says that..In fact, that type of thinking is condemned by scriptures..james 4:

This is a misleading statement. The Scriptures never clearly assert that there is a set of persons pre-destined to eternal life, either. That conclusion is an interpretation. I happen to think it is an incorrect interpretation but that is besides the point.

Do not let this argument trip you up. You will see it all the time, but it is invalid. The truth is that the concept of free will is implicitly bundled into concepts like "choose", "select", "decide", etc. So when the Scriptures exhort us to "choose life", implicit acknowledgement of free will is right there. Although the Calvinist often denies this, the manifest truth is that the concept of free will is indeed bundled into such concepts.

That this is the case is shown by the fact we would never say "the apple chose to fall from the tree". If you were to say that, people would wonder how it is you think an apple has the "degree of freedom" to govern its own fate. If, like the apple, human beings were governed solely by forces external to themselves, we simply would not use the word "choose" in relation to the actions of human beings, just like for the apple.