Free will or no free will?

[beloved57]

This is a misleading statement. The Scriptures never clearly assert that there is a set of persons pre-destined to eternal life, either

in this case, the scripture never clearly assert that there is not a set of persons predestined to eternal life..

please show me a passage that reads:

No one is ever predestned to eternal life..

I will wait for such verse..

 

[Drew]

This is a misleading statement. The Scriptures never clearly assert that there is a set of persons pre-destined to eternal life, either

in this case, the scripture never clearly assert that there is not a set of persons predestined to eternal life..

please show me a passage that reads:

No one is ever predestned to eternal life..

I will wait for such verse..

This is an entirely incorrect line of reasoning. The fact that there are no scriptures that say "no one is pre-destined to eternal life" does not mean "people are, in fact, pre-destined to eternal life".

The burden of proof is on you. You are the one initiating many threads where you assert pre-destination.

 

[MarkT]

The action in the Garden speaks of two wills, doesn't it? First, Jesus was God, so He had a divine will, a will that CANNOT be different than the Father's, unless you believe there are more than one God. Secondly, Jesus was a man in ALL ways but sin. Man has a will, does he not? Thus, the Christ is a Being, God and man united, that has two wills.

Nope. Man is just a creature. You go back and forth between man and spirit but you never attain any whole. This is why I dislike the Trinity concept. There's no spiritual understanding in it.

A man can only have one 'will' he can call his own, and Jesus spoke of his 'will'. For example, he said, "I came to cast fire upon the earth; and would that it were already kindled! I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how I am constrained until it is accomplished!" So if it were up to Jesus, he would have kindled the fire then and there. But he was constrained by the will of God.

Likewise we have one will which we can call our own which we can acknowledge as being our will.

The more knowledge God gives us, the more we come to know things come to be as God has ordered them. Then peace will enter your heart. Then you will worship God in spirit and truth; not wishing for things to be as you want them to be but accepting things as they are ordered.

Give you an example. Peter didn't want to deny Jesus. Yet, knowing Jesus said he would deny him three times, nevertheless, he denied him three times.

We might say we would never do such things, but then we find ourselves doing the things we said we would never do. We might say to ourselves, as the Pharisees did, that we are a chosen people, and thank God for making us better than other men; proud and all puffed up with knowledge. But God has a way of humbling us. This is why we are commanded - do not judge!

God's will is done whether we want it or not, whether we like it or not, whether we agree with him or not, whether we desire it or not, whether we choose it or not.

Did Jesus choose to die on the cross? Nope. We see in his prayer that he knew what would be, and yet he prayed, 'if possible, let this cup pass'. And then he prayed, 'Thy will be done.' And for us, though we don't know what will be from moment to moment, we acknowledge it is God's will.

 

[St Francis]

I see that this thread is 79 pages long. The fact that people have been posting whatever they want to post for 79 pages is empirical proof that we have free will.

 

[MarkT]

I see that this thread is 79 pages long. The fact that people have been posting whatever they want to post for 79 pages is empirical proof that we have free will.

Some things come from the mind of man and some things come from the Spirit of God.

 

[beloved57]

This is an entirely incorrect line of reasoning. The fact that there are no scriptures that say "no one is pre-destined to eternal life" does not mean "people are, in fact, pre-destined to eternal life".

And all i did was post the very same reasoning you gave me..lol

 

[Drew]

This is an entirely incorrect line of reasoning. The fact that there are no scriptures that say "no one is pre-destined to eternal life" does not mean "people are, in fact, pre-destined to eternal life".

And all i did was post the very same reasoning you gave me..lol

But I never claimed that the Scriptures endorsed the view that people are not elected to heaven and hell. I am merely critiquing your assertions that the scriptures support the pre-destination view.

 

[francisdesales]

All men and devils submit to Gods Sovereign will..He is Sovereign..what ever choices you make, are according to Gods will..If you choose to go out and murder someone, guess what ? Yep, you guessed it..It was Gods will..If you rape a women..it was ordained by God..

This is dangerous ground, beloved. Why? This line of thinking makes God the author of sin... Not much of a "God", now, is He, by commanding us to obey His commands, and making us disobey them???

When a woman is raped, it is NOT God's Will!!!! That is flat out crazy talk, pagan determinism. Such thoughts are not Christian, and the Spirit of God does not perpetrate such nonsense.

Yes, I said it. Nonsense.

God's will is also sovereign and supreme in the sense that God also ALLOWS man to have free will. God wills that man has free will.

Except in the world of Calvinism where God cannot freely give man free will. The "elect" will not allow it...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Nope. Man is just a creature. You go back and forth between man and spirit but you never attain any whole. This is why I dislike the Trinity concept. There's no spiritual understanding in it.

Of course man is a creature. What makes us unique from other animals is that we have a free will. We have an intellect. Just as God HIMSELF does. God also has intellect and a will, but being God, it is actually personified. And thus, we have three persons, Father, Son, and Spirit, the latter two being the Intellect (or Logos) and the Will of God Himself. Trinity has a very deep and profound understanding to it, I would posit that you are the one lacking, not the concept itself.

I am not sure how your line of reasoning leaves man without a will or spirit... A simple self-reflection will enable you to see we do indeed have a "force" that moves our physical actions, and thus, they are indeed united.

A man can only have one 'will' he can call his own, and Jesus spoke of his 'will'. For example, he said, "I came to cast fire upon the earth; and would that it were already kindled! I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how I am constrained until it is accomplished!" So if it were up to Jesus, he would have kindled the fire then and there. But he was constrained by the will of God.

Again, as I said, Jesus is a composite Being, one who is Divine and man at the same time. His divine will was the exact same as the Father's will, since the Son and Father cannot have two different wills - that is not monotheism anymore. You cannot have two divine principles with two different wills!!! Other Scriptures tell us that Jesus is God. In addition, we know Jesus is fully man. More so than we are. We have a will. Man's will is not God's will, unless united with the Divine Will, as Christ's manly will was united. And so, Jesus' human will wanted to do things a bit differently, but Jesus' divine will overruled that.

Likewise we have one will which we can call our own which we can acknowledge as being our will.

The more knowledge God gives us, the more we come to know things come to be as God has ordered them. Then peace will enter your heart. Then you will worship God in spirit and truth; not wishing for things to be as you want them to be but accepting things as they are ordered.

Yes. In other words, we are being transformed. Our wills are being changed to follow God's Will, just as Christ's human will was already perfected and always did the Divine Will.

God's will is done whether we want it or not, whether we like it or not, whether we agree with him or not, whether we desire it or not, whether we choose it or not.

And sometimes, God wills that men be condemned, although HE desires all men to be saved...

Free will of men must be taken into the formula, then.

Did Jesus choose to die on the cross? Nope. We see in his prayer that he knew what would be, and yet he prayed, 'if possible, let this cup pass'. And then he prayed, 'Thy will be done.' And for us, though we don't know what will be from moment to moment, we acknowledge it is God's will.

Did Christ choose to die? Yes, He did. John's Gospel makes it very clear that Jesus retained the ability and power to NOT lay down His life. He did the Father's will, although His human will must not have cared for the Father's ultimate plan of the terrible sacrifice in store for Christ's human body. We, too, undergo such inner pains of torment when we wrestle with doing something we know God wants us to do, and undertaking the painful steps necessary to do them. "God, isn't there another way" is not a blasphemous request!!!

And finally, who does the Father's will? The son who says "yes" and then doesn't do it, or the son who says "no" but does it anyways?

Regards

 

[beloved57]

This is dangerous ground, beloved.

Its safe ground..satan is under the sovereign control of God..

job 1:

7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

9Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

10Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

11But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

12And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

and Job knew that the evil he encountered from the robbers and bandits, were ultimately From God..notice his words..

21And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

He didnt blame the bandits..also job 2:

10But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

evil from the Hand of God..was moral evil involved in this evil ? Why yes, murder is morally wrong..didnt some of his servants get killed ?..God is Sovereign in causing this evil to Job..and satan was obedient to Gods sovereign will..he had no choice..

Now does satan have a will ? Sure..2 tim 2:

26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.[/b]

but yet the devil as seen in job, has not freewill..his will is limited by Gods Sovereignty.. and yet you and others believe, man a much inferior being than satan has freewill..lol the biggest joke in the history of man kind..

listen to this..

mk 1:
And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.

demons and the devil obey God, these beings control men, God and christ controls them, but God cannot control men..please..

All evil, along with everything else is Caused by God..either directly or through subservient servants of His, men or devils or The Devil himself belong to God and serve his Sovereign wise and Holy purpose..

I am on safe ground..i say with the faith of my boy David..

ps 27:
1The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

2When the wicked, even mine enemies and my foes, came upon me to eat up my flesh, they stumbled and fell.

3Though an host should encamp against me, my heart shall not fear: though war should rise against me, in this will I be confident.

 

[St Francis]

I saw somebody post this post elsewhere, so I thought I'd steal it and post it here:

In Deuteronomy 30:19 we read: "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants."

Now God would not ask us to "choose" unless we actually COULD choose. Thats pretty obvious.

I think that is a good proof text for free will.

 

[beloved57]

I

think that is a good proof text for free will.

too bad freewill is not mentioned in the text ..nor any where else in the bible..nor is it ever implied in the bible..but Gods Sovereign will is..

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

 

[St Francis]

I saw somebody post this post elsewhere, so I thought I'd steal it and post it here:

In Deuteronomy 30:19 we read: "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants."

Now God would not ask us to "choose" unless we actually COULD choose. Thats pretty obvious.

I think that is a good proof text for free will.

too bad freewill is not mentioned in the text .....

Sure it is, in the word "choose".
How could God ask us to "choose" life or death if we don't have the free will necessary to make the choice? God wouldn't ask us to do something we are incapable of doing.

 

[francisdesales]

Its safe ground..satan is under the sovereign control of God..

You may think it is "safe", but you have left Christian teachings by such silly logic. God is not the author of sin. Man is responsible, tempted by the flesh, by Satan. Scriptures tell us that God does not tempt us (James). You clearly are teaching pagan determinism, the very thing which was largely responsible for driving many to the Christian faith in the first place, a desire to be free from the slavery of fate. You would have us tied to fate again, where we are condemned and punished to eternal damnation before we were born...

That's not Christianity, that is paganism.

Regards

 

[Paidion]

God's will is done whether we want it or not, whether we like it or not, whether we agree with him or not, whether we desire it or not, whether we choose it or not.

If that is the case, then it seems that Jesus wasn't aware of it. He taught His disciples to pray, "Let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

If God's will is already being done on earth, this prayer is meaningless.

 

[francisdesales]

too bad freewill is not mentioned in the text ..nor any where else in the bible..nor is it ever implied in the bible..but Gods Sovereign will is..

And according to you, god wills that men be saved, while condemning them after MAKING them sin!!! It is your god's will that women be raped and murdered??? Your god wants men to obey his commands, but doesn't give him the ability to choose - and condemns this man?

Your "god" seems to contradict himself. Or you are confused.

Fortunately, the Christian God is not such a contradiction.

Regards

 

[beloved57]

Sure it is, in the word "choose".

since when did the word choose turn into freewill ? God didnt say use your freewill did He..?

 

[beloved57]

You may think it is "safe", but you have left Christian teachings by such silly logic. God is not the author of sin

God is The First Cause of all things..sin included..

 

[beloved57]

But I never claimed that the Scriptures endorsed the view that people are not elected to heaven and hell.

but you denied it..i gave you my scriptures..

 

[Paidion]

This is elementary stuff..this is how i know you are not born again and understand scriptures..

Revelation 22:11 "He who is unjust, let him be unjust still...

One might add, "He who is arrogant, let him be arrogant still."