Free Will, Predeterminism and Predestination

[Jethro Bodine]

Where does the bible say “God is micromanaging when the gospel
is presented.” When Jesus sent men out to preach, did he tell them God is actually managing it all?

This is what he told them.

John 6:44
44“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Since God holds us responsible for that choice we can. Where does the God say no man can choose to believe??

Man does choose to believe of their own volition... when God presents the gospel to them. He does the drawing. Jesus said NO ONE can come to him unless the Father draws them. That isn't God deciding for you that you'll be a believer. That's God deciding when you can exercise your free will to believe.

You have to get these two scriptural truths straight: 1) You can't believe anything you haven't heard about (Romans 10:14), and 2) you won't hear about it until God sends somebody out to say it. (Romans 10:15). I grew up going to church, but I didn't hear the gospel until I was in my late teens/early twenties when God started drawing/calling me by the Holy Spirit to faith in Him. Just because God controls when and where you hear the gospel from the Holy Spirit doesn't mean He's deciding for you that you're going to be a believer. It means he's giving you the chance to believe in something, of your own volition, that you need to hear about. And he knows the right time to do that. He knows when the fields are white for harvest. Not you, or I.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In non-calvinist theology, God isn’t controlling any part. In calvinism based theology, He is controlling all or most.

Hopefully, now you are seeing from the scriptures I'm sharing that God does control when and where you hear the gospel. You and I don't will when and where we want to hear the Holy Spirit's testimony about Jesus. God decides that. What we do will is if we are going to receive and retain what we hear. That is the primary point that makes Freewill Theology miles and miles distant from Reformed doctrine.

 

[jasonc]

Ask me. I know the answer.

I know the answer to that one too, but I heard it from preachers and thought it made sense. But you need to PM me because that is off the OP and there are the OP stay on topic police around.

The point is God is sovereign and allows sin he doesn't have to .

Why did God choose Abraham .answer because He wanted too.He even said to isreal you are nothing ,I found you and I married you and you looked awful.

The least of all nations .the nation of isreal was worse then Sodom and Gomorrah.yet God spared them.jewish cities told by Jesus that the same city will rise up in judgement to judge them because they had the chance to see the Messiah and ignored them.

Yet sodom and Gomorrah didn't get the chance. For if they heard they would have repented.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The point is God is sovereign and allows sin he doesn't have to .

True, that was decided before the foundation of the world.

Why did God choose Abraham .answer because He wanted too.He even said to isreal you are nothing ,I found you and I married you and you looked awful.

That’s not an intellectual answer. Everyone does what they do because they wanted to do so.

The least of all nations .the nation of isreal was worse then Sodom and Gomorrah.

No, it wasn’t, never in its history.

yet God spared them.jewish cities told by Jesus that the same city will rise up in judgement to judge them because they had the chance to see the Messiah and ignored them.

That’s true. The most awful city would have repented. The Israel of Jesus’ day refused. An interesting element of that prophesy is that at Judgement Day, witnesses will have a chance to present arguments against people. And is the problem that they “didn’t accept Jesus into their hearts?” No, it’s that they didn’t repent.

Yet sodom and Gomorrah didn't get the chance. For if they heard they would have repented.

Absolutely! They (destined for hell) will witness against the unrepentant Jews of Jesus’ generation.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Just like Pharaoh, right?

Was he being confronted with personal salvation?

 

[jasonc]

True, that was decided before the foundation of the world.

That’s not an intellectual answer. Everyone does what they do because they wanted to do so.

No, it wasn’t, never in its history.

That’s true. The most awful city would have repented. The Israel of Jesus’ day refused. An interesting element of that prophesy is that at Judgement Day, witnesses will have a chance to present arguments against people. And is the problem that they “didn’t accept Jesus into their hearts?” No, it’s that they didn’t repent.

Absolutely! They (destined for hell) will witness against the unrepentant Jews of Jesus’ generation.

My point is that you Know God heart and thoughts. ?

You were there?

Ezekiel 16:47

 

[jasonc]

It's Ezekiel 16. So yes the Jews were worse then Sodom .

 

[Dorothy Mae]

In Calvinism there is no convincing. God decided in eternity past without any consideration of what you would want that you will be a believer, no matter what, and there's nothing you can do about it. There is nothing even remotely similar to that in Freewill Theology in which you hear the gospel and you either receive or reject it of your own volition.

How do you think they describe this in real life? Exactly as you do. I’ve heard them. What you are doing is refusing to look at how this works out in the life of a man. It fits your description perfectly. The chosen elected one is put into a position (manipulated) where they WILL freely choose to believe. Now you have a deviation of allowing a negative choice but they’ll just say those guys weren’t among the chosen elect. The choice to believe is irresistible for the elect. In other theologies Gods not drawing, he’s manipulating.

You're leaving out the primary point of Calvinism that distinguishes it from Freewill theology...God decides for you that you will be a believer with no consideration whatsoever of what you yourself would want to do. Calvinists think it has to be this way or your decision to believe is a self righteous work of damnation.

That’s not the primary point. It’s only one of a few primary points.

 

[brightfame52]

dorothym

That verse doesn’t say God changes a man’s free will so he can believe.

It doesnt say that explicitly, but Jn 6:44 is describing the New Birth experience, so its a new man being drawn, led to Christ.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

My point is that you Know God heart and thoughts. ?

You were there?

Ezekiel 16:47

God explained his heart and thoughts to his servants a
d they wrote it down. They weren’t there at creation either. What does that matter? No one tells a Christian they can’t know what Jesus thought because they weren’t there when he walked the earth.

 

[brightfame52]

You're leaving out the primary point of Calvinism that distinguishes it from Freewill theology...God decides for you that you will be a believer with no consideration whatsoever of what you yourself would want to do. Calvinists think it has to be this way or your decision to believe is a self righteous work of damnation.

Yes God has chosen who will be a believer in Christ, and who will not. 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

 

[Jethro Bodine]

He takes away their chance to exercise any further free will in the matter.

…they have to have free will to choose to believe (the lie.)

That's like saying the slave to sin who has been turned over to his sin still has the free will to not be a slave to sin.

 

[jasonc]

That's like saying the slave to sin who has been turned over to his sin still has the free will to not be a slave to sin.

We see this today In society with those doctors who believe in transgender rights .

 

[jasonc]

God explained his heart and thoughts to his servants a
d they wrote it down. They weren’t there at creation either. What does that matter? No one tells a Christian they can’t know what Jesus thought because they weren’t there when he walked the earth.

You assume that all that God does is told when it isn't .

Jews ,as my family is that ,assume they are the best .

Dad taught otherwise .no Adam wasn't a jew .God made the way .he choose the path .he came up with blood to be the way to be forgiven .

Planned it. He could have wiped Adam and eve out. But he used their choice .yet you argue that God doesn't let sinners do that

 

[jasonc]

He let isreal be worse then Sodom for his reason .

 

[jasonc]

The interesting thing is that God let's us harden our hearts.

 

[jasonc]

The interesting thing is that God let's us harden our hearts.

And yet he says I gave them up to do that which is inconvenient for them .

They rejected Him ,He says fine .Have at it .

 

[Edward]

I would love to hear her explain why God slew annias and saphira and plenty of others lie to the Holy Ghost and live much longer .

Or why Adam and eve didn't die then an there .

I could.

But Adam taking over 900 years to die in the body is just a testament to the awesomeness of God's creation.
But don't mistake this, Adam & Eve did die right then and there. Spiritually.

 

[Edward]

The interesting thing is that God let's us harden our hearts.

And some people say, we have no free will! Har de har har.

I very much doubt that God hardened Pharohs heart Himself. God allowed it to happen! But the choice was still Pharohs.