Free Will, Predeterminism and Predestination

[Jethro Bodine]

Was he being confronted with personal salvation?

Pharaoh lost his free will in a hardened heart. Paul talks about that here, too.

Ephesians 4:19
Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity

You claim that doesn't happen. Add that to the other two scriptures I shared and you'll see God does indeed remove free will. That removal of free will has nothing to do with Calvinism. So don't try to make a comparison. Calvinism says God decides for you if you will have the will to believe the gospel. I'm just showing you that men do indeed have free will to decide that for themselves. But if they will to reject the gospel, God will indeed keep them fast in that decision they have made. I've shown you the scriptures that say that.

 

[brightfame52]

That's like saying the slave to sin who has been turned over to his sin still has the free will to not be a slave to sin.

Yes, we are slaves to sin until Christ liberates us by His Spirit in the New Birth Jn 8:34-36

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

And unbelief is a symptom if being a slave /servant of sin.

If we say that we became believers in Jesus without the liberation He provides in the New Birth, then we are saying we didn't need Jesus to set us free to believe, we managed it by our own freewill, even while dead in sin and a slave to sin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes God has chosen who will be a believer in Christ, and who will not. 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Men are chosen because they have faith, not God chose them to have faith. The chosen body to which those who have faith are added is THE Chosen One, Jesus Christ. That's how we are chosen 'in Christ'. Christ is the chosen one. We are added to Him when we believe. That is the plan that was made before creation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How do you think they describe this in real life? Exactly as you do. I’ve heard them. What you are doing is refusing to look at how this works out in the life of a man. It fits your description perfectly. The chosen elected one is put into a position (manipulated) where they WILL freely choose to believe.

No. Stop right there. The person is not of the elect until they believe. And they have the choice whether or not to be of the elect. So, no, I'm not saying the chosen/elected one is manipulated into a position where they WILL freely choose to believe. They aren't elected at that point, and, they have the choice to be a believer or not be a believer at this point.

Now you have a deviation of allowing a negative choice but they’ll just say those guys weren’t among the chosen elect. The choice to believe is irresistible for the elect. In other theologies Gods not drawing, he’s manipulating.

Technically, Calvinism does not teach that a person makes a negative choice. Predestination in Calvinism teaches that all men start out spiritually dead but it's only those determined ahead of time for them by God to be in the elect that receive the grace to irresistibly respond to the gospel in faith. Those not determined ahead of time by God to be of the elect are simply left in their dead state. So this is just another point of many that has no resemblance to Freewill Theology. You're trying very hard to make my doctrine reformist because it doesn't agree with all your Freewill Theology points, but my doctrine is not reformist. Calvinists would show me the door in a heartbeat if I said what I believe is any way shape or form Calvinist Predestination.

 

[jasonc]

No. Stop right there. The person is not of the elect until they believe. And they have the choice whether or not to be of the elect. So, no, I'm not saying the chosen/elected one is manipulated into a position where they WILL freely choose to believe. They aren't elected at that point, and, they have the choice to be a believer or not be a believer at this point.


Technically, Calvinism does not teach that a person makes a negative choice. Predestination in Calvinism teaches that all men start out spiritually dead but it's only those determined ahead of time for them by God to be in the elect that receive the grace to irresistibly respond to the gospel in faith. Those not determined ahead of time by God to be of the elect are simply left in their dead state. So this is just another point of many that has no resemblance to Freewill Theology. You're trying very hard to make my doctrine reformist because it doesn't agree with all your Freewill Theology points, but my doctrine is not reformist. Calvinists would show me the door in a heartbeat if I said what I believe is any way shape or form Calvinist Predestination.

I attend a reformed church .I'm a member.in no way would I as one like you would be asked to leave .I couldn't be an elder or pastor .

I'm not called to be those .they don't require it for membership or the sacremements

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It's Ezekiel 16. So yes the Jews were worse then Sodom .

Please quote the verse you think says that.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The interesting thing is that God let's us harden our hearts.

He let Daniel harden his heart, too. What’s He supposed to do? Stop it?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You assume that all that God does is told when it isn't .

Where do you think I assume that???

Jews ,as my family is that ,assume they are the best .

Dad taught otherwise .no Adam wasn't a jew .God made the way .he choose the path .he came up with blood to be the way to be forgiven .

Planned it. He could have wiped Adam and eve out. But he used their choice .yet you argue that God doesn't let sinners do that

You got the wrong poster. I say the opposite.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Pharaoh lost his free will in a hardened heart. Paul talks about that here, too.

How did he later then harden his own heart if free will was gone? No man ever loses his free will. But in this you resemble Calvinism, They too think as you do.

Ephesians 4:19
Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity

No free will is described as lost and, in fact, free will is NECESSARY for the above to happen. They “gave themselves” which is free will pure. No one gives themselves with a will free to do so.

You claim that doesn't happen.

The scripture does that, not me.

Add that to the other two scriptures I shared and you'll see God does indeed remove free will.

No, there’s no scripture that says that and all you quote require free will to be possible.

That removal of free will has nothing to do with Calvinism.

It has everything to do with it. It’s the basis for calvinism.

So don't try to make a comparison. Calvinism says God decides for you if you will have the will to believe the gospel. I'm just showing you that men do indeed have free will to decide that for themselves. But if they will to reject the gospel, God will indeed keep them fast in that decision they have made. I've shown you the scriptures that say that.

No, that’s not what it says. God is not so cruel as you’ve decided He is. All men have free will always. This you deny. He might send a deserved delusion they freely choose to believe. But free will in that case is essential.

 

[jasonc]

Where do you think I assume that???

You got the wrong poster. I say the opposite.

No

You literally argued that to Jethro God would save judas .yet the prophecy and Jesus said it was better for him not even exist .

God doesn't get glory by his righteous judgements.?

Tell me how you will die and date and type of death when it's God who ordains the day we die.

For it's appointed for all men to die then until the judgememt.


Before the flood God said i shall strive with a man's spirit forever .
He will simply knowing you let you choose and knows you won't budge and seals it .

And God sent a spirit of delusion but then preterist believe that is past

I would love to here your view on the man of sin and the delusion of Jews in ad 70.

Josephus records that by saying how hard the Jews refused any peace and fought despite the offer of surrender .

2 thessalonians 2: 11.

And God sent them a spirit of delusion that they should believe a lie


They can simply decide to undo that ?

There is a point where man can be so hard not even God will soften their hearts and he simply says ok .you can have it and here this will help you enjoy your choice and allows it .he can and he has sent Satan to do that ..

The lying spirit that decieves .a difficult passage but one that means well here go decieve him because he wants to be decieved .

I have idiot customers that think they know they argue I warm and I let them learn . At some point I note those and say it's not like thru will ever heed and I give no effort to help them .

 

[jasonc]

He let Daniel harden his heart, too. What’s He supposed to do? Stop it?

Daniel harden his heart ?

See at what point does that words and these will not repent .

And those that recieved the mark .these got that spirit and are listed as judged .once marked they have no chance as the Bible lists no one having it on heaven or God mentioning any repentance by them .in fact they beg for death .


God wipes his hands of them .

 

[jasonc]

Please quote the verse you think says that.

I posted verse 47 .

And it seemed a light thing for you to do that which is worse then Sodom .

Do you think that Jesus will just frown and not slay the wicked when he returns that people alive will just love him all of them .?

Ezekiel 16:45-48 ESV — You are the daughter of your mother, who loathed her husband and her children; and you are the sister of your sisters, who loathed their husbands and their children. Your mother was a Hittite and your father an Amorite. And your elder sister is Samaria, who lived with her daughters to the north of you; and your younger sister, who lived to the south of you, is Sodom with her daughters. Not only did you walk in their ways and do according to their abominations; within a very little time you were more corrupt than they in all your ways. As I live, declares the Lord GOD, your sister Sodom and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done.


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48 says that they did worse .that's the esv .the daughters of Sodom didn't do what the Jews did .

 

[jasonc]

Yet God didn't wipe them out . He kept a remnant .

Sodom not Gomorrah got that chance .

The angels came to rescue lot and his . And only three survived that fire and brimstone.lot and his two daughters .

Lot could have preached to them it's not said but only that lot was vexed by their wicked ways . How long was this cities like that ? Not said .

 

[brightfame52]

Men are chosen because they have faith, not God chose them to have faith. The chosen body to which those who have faith are added is THE Chosen One, Jesus Christ. That's how we are chosen 'in Christ'. Christ is the chosen one. We are added to Him when we believe. That is the plan that was made before creation.

Men are chosen in order to be given Faith.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I posted verse 47 .

And it seemed a light thing for you to do that which is worse then Sodom .

Do you think that Jesus will just frown and not slay the wicked when he returns that people alive will just love him all of them .?

Ezekiel 16:45-48 ESV — You are the daughter of your mother, who loathed her husband and her children; and you are the sister of your sisters, who loathed their husbands and their children. Your mother was a Hittite and your father an Amorite. And your elder sister is Samaria, who lived with her daughters to the north of you; and your younger sister, who lived to the south of you, is Sodom with her daughters. Not only did you walk in their ways and do according to their abominations; within a very little time you were more corrupt than they in all your ways. As I live, declares the Lord GOD, your sister Sodom and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done.


Shared via BLB app for Android
Check us out online at http://blb.org/esv/eze/16/45-48/

48 says that they did worse .that's the esv .the daughters of Sodom didn't do what the Jews did .

I stand corrected. Thank you. I still know why Sodom and G were wiped out and the Jews were not.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Daniel harden his heart ?

Of course. When a man determines he is not going to defile himself, it means one hardens the heart against that sin. It is the same process. We would say "steels himself" and it can be for good or evil.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yet God didn't wipe them out . He kept a remnant .

Sodom not Gomorrah got that chance .

The angels came to rescue lot and his . And only three survived that fire and brimstone.lot and his two daughters .

Lot could have preached to them it's not said but only that lot was vexed by their wicked ways . How long was this cities like that ? Not said .

Israel had at least one prophet and likely more righteous men than that one. S and G did not have 10.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How did he later then harden his own heart if free will was gone? No man ever loses his free will. But in this you resemble Calvinism, They too think as you do.

EVERYONE is hardened in Calvinism. Don't you know this?
Only the elect are un-hardened as an act of God's special grace reserved for them and them alone. And completely separate from any consideration of what they want, having been determined in eternity past that God would do that to them according to His own will only, not theirs.

 

[jasonc]

Israel had at least one prophet and likely more righteous men than that one. S and G did not have 10.

Miss the point . God let them live because he made a promise to Abraham . He didn't have to.

Abraham wasn't any better then you or I .

I'm sure if the pastor gave you to the nearest pharoah to be a wife you wouldn't think of that being good .

Abraham lied and did that twice . To save his neck .God showed him mercy .

 

[jasonc]

Of course. When a man determines he is not going to defile himself, it means one hardens the heart against that sin. It is the same process. We would say "steels himself" and it can be for good or evil.

That's isn't any term for chosing Good .that means God wouldn't also seal him .

Meaning as I. Your theology God doesn't seal anyone as well you can simply give up salvation .

You must sureky teach that God has to accept you based on your holiness .