Free Will, Predeterminism and Predestination

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro Bodine, you likely don’t see the similarities between your thinking and Calvinism. The difference you see as large are minor to us. The description of God is the same. You can protest but we see that you are in that camp even if at a slightly off from the middle point.

Well, until you add some substance to your accusation there's nothing for me to defend.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

He talks like a Calvinist. That one gets by reading what he wrote.

Let's test your knowledge of Calvinism. What am I saying that is peculiar to Calvinism?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Let's test your knowledge of Calvinism. What am I saying that is peculiar to Calvinism?

The main one is your peculiar take on free will which you oddly restrict to only a limited time point and then it’s removed again. You specifically say we are like rats in a maze where God is (my words but accurate) manipulating everything.

The Being you present is cruel. Being manipulated rats in a maze is a very cruel just like the Calvinists version of God. Your description of Him matches the Calvinists’ description.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Until they realize I don't believe God purposely determines who's going to be a believer and who won't be apart from their own say in the matter.

Is God determining as a result of their say?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Then you don't understand reformed theology.

Rats in a maze where God is manipulating to get outcomes is close.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The main one is your peculiar take on free will which you oddly restrict to only a limited time point

You can only accept the gospel when and while God is offering it. People aren't born called. Somewhere along the path of life God calls a person to the gospel and opens the door to salvation. Until He does that you can't be saved. You will be, and remain, the hardened soil on which the seed of the gospel can not penetrate and take root and grow and which will eventually be snatched away by the evil one. God is the farmer. He tills the soil and plants and waters the seed. And until he does that you got nothing and you never will.

...and then it’s removed again.

If you reject Christ over and over and over again when he calls, eventually God stops calling and turns you over to your choice to not receive and believe the gospel. Then you will never be able to believe the gospel and be saved. God stops working your soil. Think very hard about what scripture says about this before you insist this isn't true.

You specifically say we are like rats in a maze where God is (my words but accurate) manipulating everything.

If God did not arrange things so you can hear the gospel and prepare the soil of your heart to receive it you would never be saved.

The Being you present is cruel. Being manipulated rats in a maze is a very cruel just like the Calvinists version of God. Your description of Him matches the Calvinists’ description.

Calvinism says God doesn't consult you to see if you want to be a believer, and that he decided that for you, apart from any consideration of what you might want ahead of time in eternity past before you or anything else was created. And that by default he decided for you if you're going to be an unbeliever by simply deciding ahead of time that he's not going to make you a believer.

That's how Calvinism (erroneously) defines 'predestination'. It says God has already predetermined ahead of time if you're going to be created to be a believer, or not created to be a believer, completely separate from any consideration of what you might actually want to be, and there's nothing you can do about it. Calvinism says it has to be this way or else salvation becomes a works gospel, as if you being able to decide whether or not you want to believe constitutes the 'work' that can not justify a person. I don't believe that. I believe that God gives us the choice of whether or not to receive and retain the seed sown in us by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Is God determining as a result of their say?

Yes, as he gives them the chance to decide what they want. That chance to decide comes to a person when God calls them. And he has positioned all people in the world to facilitate that call.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Rats in a maze where God is manipulating to get outcomes is close.

It's not because Calvinism says God has purposely decided ahead of time whether he will make you a rat that will like cheese, or a rat that will not like cheese, and so your progress in the confines of this life towards the cheese is controlled by that. I do not subscribe to that theology.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You can only accept the gospel when and while God is offering it. People aren't born called. Somewhere along the path of life God calls a person to the gospel and opens the door to salvation. Until He does that you can't be saved. You will be, and remain, the hardened soil on which the seed of the gospel can not penetrate and take root and grow and which will eventually be snatched away by the evil one. God is the farmer. He tills the soil and plants and waters the seed. And until he does that you got nothing and you never will.

No one in the Bible described this activity on the part of God, not even Jesus. This theology that puts it all in God resembles Calvinism. They too think God does it all.

If you reject Christ over and over and over again when he calls, eventually God stops calling and turns you over to your choice to not receive and believe the gospel.

This removal of choice again resembles Calvinism. And it’s again describing a hard hearted Being.

Then you will never be able to believe the gospel and be saved. God stops working your soil. Think very hard about what scripture says about this before you insist this isn't true.

I have. It isn’t true. Where is this in the NT? Your description lacks mercy. He doesn’t remove the ability to choose because the choice was wrong.

If God did not arrange things so you can hear the gospel and prepare the soil of your heart to receive it you would never be saved.

Again, Calvinism. God does it all.

Calvinism says God doesn't consult you to see if you want to be a believer, and that he decided that for you, apart from any consideration of what you might want ahead of time in eternity past before you or anything else was created. And that by default he decided for you if you're going to be an unbeliever by simply deciding ahead of time that he's not going to make you a believer.

That’s a minor deviation. Both describe God as lacking in mercy and justice…iow cruel at points.

That's how Calvinism (erroneously) defines 'predestination'. It says God has already predetermined ahead of time if you're going to be created to be a believer, or not created to be a believer, completely separate from any consideration of what you might actually want to be, and there's nothing you can do about it. Calvinism says it has to be this way or else salvation becomes a works gospel, as if you being able to decide whether or not you want to believe constitutes the 'work' that can not justify a person. I don't believe that. I believe that God gives us the choice of whether or not to receive and retain the seed sown in us by the Holy Spirit.

Your position is only a small deviation. To you, God opens up the choice thereby negating free will and closes it as well with the result, free will isn’t there and He decides. For the Calvinist it’s easier, for you it’s later, but the Being is doing all the action. A Calvinist God.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes, as he gives them the chance to decide what they want. That chance to decide comes to a person when God calls them. And he has positioned all people in the world to facilitate that call.

He decides when and if they can decide…That is similar to Calvinism.

If Jesus were to enter the discussion, He might say to you, “why is it important to you what the Father chooses to do? Do you know what you are going to choose to do, a matter that lies entirely within your power and responsibility?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It's not because Calvinism says God has purposely decided ahead of time whether he will make you a rat that will like cheese, or a rat that will not like cheese, and so your progress in the confines of this life towards the cheese is controlled by that. I do not subscribe to that theology.

You still believe we are merely rats in a maze subject to the Controller. That’s the Calvinist God.

As I said, the details vary slightly but the main point is a cruel God who decides who will believe. Yours decides later.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Your position as well as the larger version, calvinism, is appealing because it flatters the ego under the guise of “humbly” saying it wasn’t them. No one who embraces this view has decided they are NOT CHOSEN. They all consider themselves selected by God (very flattering), cannot miss Heaven (comfort to the one who refuses to give up sin they enjoy) and allows them to fool themselves into thinking they’re humble cause they take no credit for being chosen. It’s appeals to the flesh on many levels.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No one in the Bible described this activity on the part of God, not even Jesus. This theology that puts it all in God resembles Calvinism. They too think God does it all.

You're making it obvious you do not understand Calvinism.

And God only does it all in regard to giving you the opportunity to exercise the free will to believe or not to believe. In Calvinism, God assigns you what will you will exercise. And then only calls those who he has assigned the will to believe.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This removal of choice again resembles Calvinism.

There is no removal of choice until a person has full knowledge of the gospel and they reject it (Hebrews 6:4-6, 2 Thessalonians 2:10-11). That's not Calvinism. In Calvinism the damned are never given the choice to believe, only reject it, and are never actually called by God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And it’s again describing a hard hearted Being.

It's hard hearted when God lets people who refuse to believe the gospel have it their way?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Where is this in the NT? Your description lacks mercy. He doesn’t remove the ability to choose because the choice was wrong.

Well, I have just showed you He does. Hebrews 6:4-6, 2 Thessalonians 2:10-11

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Again, Calvinism. God does it all.

No, that's not Calvinism. Giving a person the opportunity to choose for or against the gospel is hardly 'God doing it all'. Calvinism is where God does it all and decides for you if you're going to be a believer or an unbeliever.

In your natural self you can not know the gospel, or receive it. And so God has to first reveal the gospel to you, and prepare your heart to receive it. It's only then that you can exercise free will in the matter. That's hardly 'God doing it all'. You still have to make the choice of whether or not you're going to believe.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That’s a minor deviation. Both describe God as lacking in mercy and justice…iow cruel at points.

Minor? You're kidding, right?
You're calling the difference between God deciding for you if you'll be a believer, and God making it so you can have a choice to be a believer minor!? It's incredibly merciful that God gives you the chance to decide of your own will to be a believer after having been turned over to the sin of Adam!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

To you, God opens up the choice thereby negating free will and closes it as well with the result, free will isn’t there and He decides.

You have free will but you can't exercise it until God opens your heart and shows you what to have free will about!

Romans 10:14-15
14How then can they call on the One in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent?

Some are going to choose to reject the message, and some are going to receive and retain it. But either way, the person hearing it has the free will choice to do what they want. That's not even remotely close to reformed theology.

For the Calvinist it’s easier, for you it’s later, but the Being is doing all the action. A Calvinist God.

No, I made it clear that God is NOT doing the action of believing or rejecting the gospel for a person. And He's not assigning to you whether or not you will be a believer or a non-believer. Only Calvinism believes that! I'm not reformist. Man has the free will to decide to accept or reject the gospel in my theology.

You lost your ability to exercise your free will to believe or not believe in Adam when you became a slave to sin. God restores your ability to exercise your free will to believe or not believe through the hearing of the gospel message. The free will you claim isn't in my argument is right there staring you in the face. The gospel message makes it so everyone who hears it can then decide for themselves if they want to believe, or not believe. That's 10.000 miles away from Reformed theology. Reformed theology says you never, ever have the choice to be a believer or an unbeliever. It's decided for you ahead of time.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You still believe we are merely rats in a maze subject to the Controller. That’s the Calvinist God.

As I said, the details vary slightly but the main point is a cruel God who decides who will believe. Yours decides later.

No, God does not decide who will be a believer and who will not be a believer. He controls the environment in which you are able to make that choice yourself. That's not even remotely close to Calvinism. Man chooses whether or not he will believe the gospel. God presents man with the opportunity to make that choice through the call of the gospel message.