Free Will, Predeterminism and Predestination

[Jethro Bodine]

He decides when and if they can decide…That is similar to Calvinism.

That is NOT similar to Calvinism. The only thing God decides is when and where he will present the gospel to you so you can decide of your own free will to be a believer or an unbeliever. You can't make that choice until you even know what you're making a choice about (Romans 10:14-15)!. And so that's the only part God controls in the matter. That's hardly a reformist doctrine. You don't seem to realize that in reformed theology God doesn't even call those he decided ahead of time will be unbelievers.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You're making it obvious you do not understand Calvinism.

I wish you’d drop the ad hominem. I can quote TULIP from
memory. But you don’t see the obvious similarity.

And God only does it all in regard to giving you the opportunity to exercise the free will to believe or not to believe.

That’s no where in scripture.

In Calvinism, God assigns you what will you will exercise. And then only calls those who he has assigned the will to believe.

In both you think God is personally managing it with your version denying free wil (like Calvinism) until those few moments of decision. He doesn’t and the parable of the different souls says this clearly.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Well, I have just showed you He does. Hebrews 6:4-6, 2 Thessalonians 2:10-11

Please quote those verses because none say “God takes away free will.” You need to show where you’ve decided they say what you think. Delusion, for example, REQUIRES free will to choose.

 

[Edward]

I commend you both, this is a good thread and yes, very entertaining lol.

The thing that makes it good is, you guys seems like you fight fair. I wish all threads were like that.

See what can happen when you run into an intelligent woman, Jethro?! I didn't say I think she's right about everything but she sure is holding her own!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

That is NOT similar to Calvinism. The only thing God decides is when and where he will present the gospel to you so you can decide of your own free will to be a believer or an unbeliever.

Where does the bible say “God is micromanaging when the gospel
is presented.” When Jesus sent men out to preach, did he tell them God is actually managing it all?

You can't make that choice until you even know what you're making a choice about (Romans 10:14-15)!.

Since God holds us responsible for that choice we can. Where does the God say no man can choose to believe??

And so that's the only part God controls in the matter. That's hardly a reformist doctrine. You don't seem to realize that in reformed theology God doesn't even call those he decided ahead of time will be unbelievers.

In non-calvinist theology, God isn’t controlling any part. In calvinism based theology, He is controlling all or most.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No, God does not decide who will be a believer and who will not be a believer. He controls the environment in which you are able to make that choice yourself. That's not even remotely close to Calvinism. Man chooses whether or not he will believe the gospel. God presents man with the opportunity to make that choice through the call of the gospel message.

I’ve heard Calvinists explain how God convinces the elect and it’s pretty much what you describe.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Jethro Bodine, do you know how Calvinists describe the elect becoming saved? He chooses when and where they hear the gospel and changes their hearts so they believe. Sounds familiar?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And God only does it all in regard to giving you the opportunity to exercise the free will to believe or not to believe.

That’s no where in scripture.

Here.

John 6:44
44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him

No one can be saved until God draws them to Jesus. And he does that through the preaching of the gospel by the Holy Spirit. That's how God is in control of when and where you can exercise your free choice to receive or reject the gospel.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I can quote TULIP from
memory. But you don’t see the obvious similarity.

You don't quote from scripture, let alone from TULIP doctrine. I wish you would!

It's strange that you can not see the difference between Calvinism that says God decides for you if you're going to be a believer or not, and what I'm saying that you have the free will to decide for yourself if you will believe or not when you hear the gospel message.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In both you think God is personally managing it with your version denying free wil (like Calvinism) until those few moments of decision. He doesn’t and the parable of the different souls says this clearly.

Uh, no, I'm not saying God manages for you whether or not you will be a believer, apart from your will in the matter. That's Calvinism. In Free will doctrine, God manages your circumstances in order to give you the opportunity to exercise your free will to be a believer.

Acts 17:26-27
26From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

Nothing in what I'm saying even remotely suggests God is who determines for you, apart from your will, if you are going to be a believer or an unbeliever. That's Calvinism. I'm not a reformist. You either don't understand what I'm saying, or you just flat out disagree with the scripture I just posted. Which is it?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Well, I have just showed you He does. Hebrews 6:4-6, 2 Thessalonians 2:10-11

Please quote those verses because none say “God takes away free will.” You need to show where you’ve decided they say what you think. Delusion, for example, REQUIRES free will to choose.

I posted the references. Did you not read them? The 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 reference plainly says GOD himself sends the delusion to people who have chosen to reject the gospel, making it so they will believe the lie and be condemned at Jesus returns. He takes away their chance to exercise any further free will in the matter. They've made their free will choice and God turns them over to it. It plainly says that. The passage only needs interpretation to the contrary if someone wants to defend a doctrine of their own making that doesn't agree with what it says, and so they need to make it not really mean what it so plainly says.

And the Hebrews 6:4-6 passage shows us God doesn't allow the person to come to repentance who has rejected the truth under the circumstances listed. How is that not God removing a person's free will in the matter of the gospel????

 

[brightfame52]

Here.

John 6:44
44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him

No one can be saved until God draws them to Jesus. And he does that through the preaching of the gospel by the Holy Spirit. That's how God is in control of when and where you can exercise your free choice to receive or reject the gospel.

He draws them by the New Birth, thats when the Spirit works within. The word draw here is

helkō:

1. to draw, drag off
2. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

The inward power is the Spirit leading, impelling. Thats His function Rom 8:14

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Led here means:

1. to move, impel: of forces and influences on the mind

Those in Jn 6:44 are the children of God, because in Vs 45 it reads

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

This is from the Prophet Isa here Isa 54:13

And all thy children/sons shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

 

[jasonc]

You're making it obvious you do not understand Calvinism.

And God only does it all in regard to giving you the opportunity to exercise the free will to believe or not to believe. In Calvinism, God assigns you what will you will exercise. And then only calls those who he has assigned the will to believe.

I would love to hear her explain why God slew annias and saphira and plenty of others lie to the Holy Ghost and live much longer .

Or why Adam and eve didn't die then an there .

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Here.

John 6:44
44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him

No one can be saved until God draws them to Jesus. And he does that through the preaching of the gospel by the Holy Spirit. That's how God is in control of when and where you can exercise your free choice to receive or reject the gospel.

That verse doesn’t say God changes a man’s free will so he can believe. It does not address man's will AT ALL. It is saying that God draws a man. This is NOT putting out cheese so a mindless "rat in a maze" will go a certain direction. The drawing is more like the wooing a man does to a woman he would like to be close to. What you have done is change the verse to mean something it does not address. God treats men as man in his image, not as "rats in a maze" as you think.

You don't quote from scripture, let alone from TULIP doctrine. I wish you would!

There aren't scriptures to support Calvinism so I cannot quote any.

It's strange that you can not see the difference between Calvinism that says God decides for you if you're going to be a believer or not, and what I'm saying that you have the free will to decide for yourself if you will believe or not when you hear the gospel message.

It is strange that you cannot see that your position of believing we are just "rats in a maze" is more like calvinism than any theology before Calvin.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I would love to hear her explain why God slew annias and saphira and plenty of others lie to the Holy Ghost and live much longer .

Ask me. I know the answer.

Or why Adam and eve didn't die then an there .

I know the answer to that one too, but I heard it from preachers and thought it made sense. But you need to PM me because that is off the OP and there are the OP stay on topic police around.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Uh, no, I'm not saying God manages for you whether or not you will be a believer, apart from your will in the matter.

I never said you said that. Why do you not understand what I am saying.

That's Calvinism. In Free will doctrine, God manages your circumstances in order to give you the opportunity to exercise your free will to be a believer.

That is a removal of free will until a particular point in time of God's choosing meaning there is no free will except for a limited period of time which God, in that view, controls. That is no free will. And it is demeaning which means it results in thinking we are mere rats...animals that God controls. That is not in the scripture, as I said.

Acts 17:26-27
26From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

Ah, you see. God set up national geographical and other boundaries for nations. This we have today. So that PEOPLE WOULD SEEK HIM as men, not rats in a maze. The man, us, needs to seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him....hmmmm. This is the opposite of your position which says that God manipulates the "cheese" so the mindless man can have a window of free will to decide if he wants the "cheese." This makes the Gospel, into "cheese" appealing to the physical needs which the Gospel is not. Another problem with your theory.

Nothing in what I'm saying even remotely suggests God is who determines for you, apart from your will, if you are going to be a believer or an unbeliever. That's Calvinism. I'm not a reformist. You either don't understand what I'm saying, or you just flat out disagree with the scripture I just posted. Which is it?

Can you please stop saying what I am not say you are saying. What you say is a slight deviation from calvinism. You insist God is opening a window to allow free will to make a decision he manipulated the man into like "rats in a maze" so get the desired outcome, favorable decision, but the man is free to reject the "cheese" and return to having no free will. I suppose the rat, uh man, has no free will before or after that one moment in time. This greatly resembles calvinism.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I posted the references. Did you not read them? The 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 reference plainly says GOD himself sends the delusion to people who have chosen to reject the gospel, making it so they will believe the lie and be condemned at Jesus returns.

No that’s not what it says.

“those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.11Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,”

He doesn’t close the minds of those who refuse to love the truth which is all truth, btw, not just the gospel. It says He gives their free will a convincing delusion (since they embrace delusion anyway) and in their then necessary free will, they freely CHOOSE to believe a lie. They had to have free will to embrace the delusion.

Your God (your theology) is cruel who you believe unjustly closes minds. (like calvinism)

My God (my theology) sends people who love lies more of what they love although they could always still repent.

He takes away their chance to exercise any further free will in the matter.

NEVER EVER…they have to have free will to choose to believe (the lie.)

They've made their free will choice and God turns them over to it. It plainly says that. The passage only needs interpretation to the contrary if someone wants to defend a doctrine of their own making that doesn't agree with what it says, and so they need to make it not really mean what it so plainly says.

No, one just needs to stop adding to the words but take them for what they say.

And the Hebrews 6:4-6 passage shows us God doesn't allow the person to come to repentance who has rejected the truth under the circumstances listed. How is that not God removing a person's free will in the matter of the gospel????

It would be more honest if you would copy and paste the scripture that doesn’t say what you want.

4For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,5and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Where are the words describing what God is doing in this event? It states that what the man once did (repent) is no longer possible.

I assume you believe that such a man was saved and no longer is, right? If so, this is a clear departure from Calvinism but it requires the man to have free will again to be able to choose differently in terms of his believing. In your view, does God open the window of free will again to the “rat” so they can choose not to believe anymore?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro Bodine, do you know how Calvinists describe the elect becoming saved? He chooses when and where they hear the gospel and changes their hearts so they believe. Sounds familiar?

You're leaving out the primary point of Calvinism that distinguishes it from Freewill theology...God decides for you that you will be a believer with no consideration whatsoever of what you yourself would want to do. Calvinists think it has to be this way or your decision to believe is a self righteous work of damnation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I’ve heard Calvinists explain how God convinces the elect and it’s pretty much what you describe.

In Calvinism there is no convincing. God decided in eternity past without any consideration of what you would want that you will be a believer, no matter what, and there's nothing you can do about it. There is nothing even remotely similar to that in Freewill Theology in which you hear the gospel and you either receive or reject it of your own volition.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

NEVER EVER…they have to have free will to choose to believe (the lie.)

Just like Pharaoh, right?