Free Will, Predeterminism and Predestination

[jasonc]

Exodus 12:1-50 ESV — The LORD said to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, “This month shall be for you the beginning of months. It shall be the first month of the year for you. Tell all the congregation of Israel that on the tenth day of this month every man shall take a lamb according to their fathers’ houses, a lamb for a household. And if the household is too small for a lamb, then he and his nearest neighbor shall take according to the number of persons; according to what each can eat you shall make your count for the lamb. Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male a year old. You may take it from the sheep or from the goats, and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, when the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs at twilight. “Then they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and the lintel of the houses in which they eat it. They shall eat the flesh that night, roasted on the fire; with unleavened bread and bitter herbs they shall eat it. Do not eat any of it raw or boiled in water, but roasted, its head with its legs and its inner parts. And you shall let none of it remain until the morning; anything that remains until the morning you shall burn. In this manner you shall eat it: with your belt fastened, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand. And you shall eat it in haste. It is the LORD’s Passover. For I will pass through the land of Egypt that night, and I will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and on all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments: I am the LORD. The blood shall be a sign for you, on the houses where you are. And when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and no plague will befall you to destroy you, when I strike the land of Egypt. “This day shall be for you a memorial day, and you shall keep it as a feast to the LORD; throughout your generations, as a statute forever, you shall keep it as a feast. Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall remove leaven out of your houses, for if anyone eats what is leavened, from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel. On the first day you shall hold a holy assembly, and on the seventh day a holy assembly. No work shall be done on those days. But what everyone needs to eat, that alone may be prepared by you. And you shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this very day I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt. Therefore you shall observe this day, throughout your generations, as a statute forever. In the first month, from the fourteenth day of the month at evening, you shall eat unleavened bread until the twenty-first day of the month at evening. For seven days no leaven is to be found in your houses. If anyone eats what is leavened, that person will be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he is a sojourner or a native of the land. You shall eat nothing leavened; in all your dwelling places you shall eat unleavened bread.” Then Moses called all the elders of Israel and said to them, “Go and select lambs for yourselves according to your clans, and kill the Passover lamb. Take a bunch of hyssop and dip it in the blood that is in the basin, and touch the lintel and the two doorposts with the blood that is in the basin. None of you shall go out of the door of his house until the morning. For the LORD will pass through to strike the Egyptians, and when he sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the LORD will pass over the door and will not allow the destroyer to enter your houses to strike you. You shall observe this rite as a statute for you and for your sons forever. And when you come to the land that the LORD will give you, as he has promised, you shall keep this service. And when your children say to you, ‘What do you mean by this service?’ you shall say, ‘It is the sacrifice of the LORD’s Passover, for he passed over the houses of the people of Israel in Egypt, when he struck the Egyptians but spared our houses.’” And the people bowed their heads and worshiped. Then the people of Israel went and did so; as the LORD had commanded Moses and Aaron, so they did. At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive who was in the dungeon, and all the firstborn of the livestock. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he and all his servants and all the Egyptians. And there was a great cry in Egypt, for there was not a house where someone was not dead. Then he summoned Moses and Aaron by night and said, “Up, go out from among my people, both you and the people of Israel; and go, serve the LORD, as you have said. Take your flocks and your herds, as you have said, and be gone, and bless me also!” The Egyptians were urgent with the people to send them out of the land in haste. For they said, “We shall all be dead.” So the people took their dough before it was leavened, their kneading bowls being bound up in their cloaks on their shoulders. The people of Israel had also done as Moses told them, for they had asked the Egyptians for silver and gold jewelry and for clothing. And the LORD had given the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they let them have what they asked. Thus they plundered the Egyptians. And the people of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children. A mixed multitude also went up with them, and very much livestock, both flocks and herds. And they baked unleavened cakes of the dough that they had brought out of Egypt, for it was not leavened, because they were thrust out of Egypt and could not wait, nor had they prepared any provisions for themselves. The time that the people of Israel lived in Egypt was 430 years. At the end of 430 years, on that very day, all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt. It was a night of watching by the LORD, to bring them out of the land of Egypt; so this same night is a night of watching kept to the LORD by all the people of Israel throughout their generations. And the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “This is the statute of the Passover: no foreigner shall eat of it, but every slave that is bought for money may eat of it after you have circumcised him. No foreigner or hired worker may eat of it. It shall be eaten in one house; you shall not take any of the flesh outside the house, and you shall not break any of its bones. All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. If a stranger shall sojourn with you and would keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised. Then he may come near and keep it; he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it. There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you.” All the people of Israel did just as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron.


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[brightfame52]

Men are CALLED to have and retain faith in God. Some answer the call and are elected on the basis of that faith.

Men are chosen to have faith. 2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It starts with Cods choice, Sanctification of the Spirit to belief of the truth, the call of the Gospel

 

[Edward]

Exodus 8:1-32 ESV — Then the LORD said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh and say to him, ‘Thus says the LORD, “Let my people go, that they may serve me. But if you refuse to let them go, behold, I will plague all your country with frogs. The Nile shall swarm with frogs that shall come up into your house and into your bedroom and on your bed and into the houses of your servants and your people, and into your ovens and your kneading bowls. The frogs shall come up on you and on your people and on all your servants.”’” And the LORD said to Moses, “Say to Aaron, ‘Stretch out your hand with your staff over the rivers, over the canals and over the pools, and make frogs come up on the land of Egypt!’” So Aaron stretched out his hand over the waters of Egypt, and the frogs came up and covered the land of Egypt. But the magicians did the same by their secret arts and made frogs come up on the land of Egypt. Then Pharaoh called Moses and Aaron and said, “Plead with the LORD to take away the frogs from me and from my people, and I will let the people go to sacrifice to the LORD.” Moses said to Pharaoh, “Be pleased to command me when I am to plead for you and for your servants and for your people, that the frogs be cut off from you and your houses and be left only in the Nile.” And he said, “Tomorrow.” Moses said, “Be it as you say, so that you may know that there is no one like the LORD our God. The frogs shall go away from you and your houses and your servants and your people. They shall be left only in the Nile.” So Moses and Aaron went out from Pharaoh, and Moses cried to the LORD about the frogs, as he had agreed with Pharaoh. And the LORD did according to the word of Moses. The frogs died out in the houses, the courtyards, and the fields. And they gathered them together in heaps, and the land stank. But when Pharaoh saw that there was a respite, he hardened his heart and would not listen to them, as the LORD had said. Then the LORD said to Moses, “Say to Aaron, ‘Stretch out your staff and strike the dust of the earth, so that it may become gnats in all the land of Egypt.’” And they did so. Aaron stretched out his hand with his staff and struck the dust of the earth, and there were gnats on man and beast. All the dust of the earth became gnats in all the land of Egypt. The magicians tried by their secret arts to produce gnats, but they could not. So there were gnats on man and beast. Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of God.” But Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the LORD had said. Then the LORD said to Moses, “Rise up early in the morning and present yourself to Pharaoh, as he goes out to the water, and say to him, ‘Thus says the LORD, “Let my people go, that they may serve me. Or else, if you will not let my people go, behold, I will send swarms of flies on you and your servants and your people, and into your houses. And the houses of the Egyptians shall be filled with swarms of flies, and also the ground on which they stand. But on that day I will set apart the land of Goshen, where my people dwell, so that no swarms of flies shall be there, that you may know that I am the LORD in the midst of the earth. Thus I will put a division between my people and your people. Tomorrow this sign shall happen.”’” And the LORD did so. There came great swarms of flies into the house of Pharaoh and into his servants’ houses. Throughout all the land of Egypt the land was ruined by the swarms of flies. Then Pharaoh called Moses and Aaron and said, “Go, sacrifice to your God within the land.” But Moses said, “It would not be right to do so, for the offerings we shall sacrifice to the LORD our God are an abomination to the Egyptians. If we sacrifice offerings abominable to the Egyptians before their eyes, will they not stone us? We must go three days’ journey into the wilderness and sacrifice to the LORD our God as he tells us.” So Pharaoh said, “I will let you go to sacrifice to the LORD your God in the wilderness; only you must not go very far away. Plead for me.” Then Moses said, “Behold, I am going out from you and I will plead with the LORD that the swarms of flies may depart from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people, tomorrow. Only let not Pharaoh cheat again by not letting the people go to sacrifice to the LORD.” So Moses went out from Pharaoh and prayed to the LORD. And the LORD did as Moses asked, and removed the swarms of flies from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people; not one remained. But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and did not let the people go.


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Paragraphs, Brother! It would make it so much easier to read.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Sealed meaning I have assurance

Show me where the men are scrolls .

The concept of that is that we are sealed and can't be lost .

I guess to you For God never hardend pharoahs heart .
It wasn't harden and God saying that he won't repent .

I will not address this directly but I will point out that it seems to be a repeated fruit of false theology that the holder behaves like the jewish leaders did to Jesus. That is, they jeer when faced with opposition to their position. This is a fruit that always tells me that the root of that theology is not the Holy Spirit as that is NOT what Jesus did to those who opposed his theology. For those testing the theology of someone, watch how they react when they exchange with someone else who does not hold to the theology. This is most clearly seen in Cavinism in the life of Calvin himself, but it is in smaller ways in the words coming out of others who hold a theology not inspired by the Holy Spirit. Something unholy comes out of them. (Do not confuse unholy with culturally impolite. Jesus was not always polite but he was always holy.)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So if you do fall away you can't be forgiven .

That does not sound like what happens to the back sliders nor does the Bible law out particulars in that choice of a path or markers. Each case is different as the heart is different. I would not begin to try to set a rule.

So which is it then with those types .they can be forgiven or have the will to change .I believe Jethro is saying that these won't and God seals that fate because they simply have exhausted all options .

That sounds like what he is saying but really, how does he know when God has done what in the life of another man? And what good is a theology that you cannot apply in real life since you are not privy to what God is choosing to do all the time? His theology in many points just does not work in real life. I work in science and I test theologies in the Word and real life. I am old enough to have seen real life in many people, and the result of their choices. What he says does not match real life and I think does not match the Word. He assumes he knows what God is doing in other people way too much and sets up rules by how God has to operate. I know God pretty well and I would not being to tell him what He has to do and what He does in cases of the heart choices of another. It is enough to know what he does in my own heart choices and how he responds.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

EVERYONE is hardened in Calvinism. Don't you know this?

I have never head a calvinist say this. They mostly say that God's heart is hardened towards the unelected or at least that He does not care that they are predestined for hell which can only happen in a heart is hardened.

Only the elect are un-hardened as an act of God's special grace reserved for them and them alone. And completely separate from any consideration of what they want, having been determined in eternity past that God would do that to them according to His own will only, not theirs.

In all my years talking to calvinists, I have never heard any of them say that God un-hardened the hearts of the elect. This whole line of you laying out what God does needs not be limited to what you say God does. Do not put your words into the mouths of the calvinists. You think God is directly hardened and unhardening hearts, I have never heard a Calvinist go into such detail in the what is supposedly doing.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No

You literally argued that to Jethro God would save judas .yet the prophecy and Jesus said it was better for him not even exist .

You got the wrong poster. We didn't discussed Judas that I recall. Otherwise I need a quote or a reference. Was it a long time ago?

God doesn't get glory by his righteous judgements.?

Where did this come up?

Tell me how you will die and date and type of death when it's God who ordains the day we die.

Some "die before their time" according to the Bible. How does that work if God is ordaining the day?

For it's appointed for all men to die then until the judgememt.


Before the flood God said i shall strive with a man's spirit forever .
He will simply knowing you let you choose and knows you won't budge and seals it .

Not sure what you mean here I think it is off topic. We are not talking OSAS.

And God sent a spirit of delusion but then preterist believe that is past

Where is this accusation coming from?

I would love to here your view on the man of sin and the delusion of Jews in ad 70.

Are you sure? Start a thread in the preterism area.

Josephus records that by saying how hard the Jews refused any peace and fought despite the offer of surrender .

2 thessalonians 2: 11.

And God sent them a spirit of delusion that they should believe a lie


They can simply decide to undo that ?

They chose to believe it using their free will.

There is a point where man can be so hard not even God will soften their hearts and he simply says ok .you can have it and here this will help you enjoy your choice and allows it .he can and he has sent Satan to do that ..

And you know exactly when that is happening in another man?

The lying spirit that decieves .a difficult passage but one that means well here go decieve him because he wants to be decieved .

I have idiot customers that think they know they argue I warm and I let them learn . At some point I note those and say it's not like thru will ever heed and I give no effort to help them .

I read this twice and still do not understand it well enough to answer. I know you do not like to put your thoughts in common grammatical forms but it is really heard to understand what you mean at times if you do not. I know you will call anyone who asks for proper grammar the "grammar police" instead of improving yourself, but it means that some things you write, some people will not be able to understand.

 

[n2thelight]

Romans 9:22
22What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction?

Your reply not making sense to me ,understand we talking about the death of the soul , how can He know and wish at the same time that no soul be lost?

 

[n2thelight]

Why would you think preventing those whose lives will experience hardship or pain at the end enjoy anything of life be a just and wise thing to do? If a man KNEW he was going to end up in hell and wanted to enjoy the pleasures of this life anyway, would it be right to deny him those pleasures because of the end that he freely chose?

Some parents experience the birth of a handicapped child whose life expectancy is only 10 years at best. That child will never grow up. Should the parents drown them at birth because some of the pleasures that they know will never be those that the child knows? What if parents knew their child would grow up to be a criminal. Should they drown them at birth? What about the grandchildren who grow up to be people who contribute great good to the world? Shall they be denied a life because their father was a rogue?

What you are saying the God ought to not let people live who will suffer. You pinpoint only one suffering, but there are other forms. Why is the end the only thing that matters? Not a single one of us thinks how we end our lives is the only thing that matters.

I can see why God allows all men to enjoy the pleasures of life and freedoms even though the eternal end might not go well because of that man's choice. He has done all He can to prevent this outcome. But He cannot kill the babies who will go there denying them life at all and be trust and kind. You are making him responsible for suffering in hell because He did not kill in the womb babies who end up there also denying parents and grandparents and friends the pleasure of that child. You want a world where more than half of the babies die for no perceivable reason? Is that just?

That's not what I'm saying ,of course we will have hardships , my point is the death of the soul .

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Your reply not making sense to me ,understand we talking about the death of the soul , how can He know and wish at the same time that no soul be lost?

He's not making them lost. He knows ahead of time that they will choose to not believe. But he makes them anyway, knowing he can reveal his power and wrath, and his glory through them to those who do believe.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

That's not what I'm saying ,of course we will have hardships , my point is the death of the soul .

I understand. I’ve heard this position before and one needs to think about the ramifications of such an on God’s part.

 

[n2thelight]

We're up to page 13 and you're not even around anymore.
Let me just say here for those reading along, that neither A nor B are correct.

Multiverses.
Are not necessary for God to know the outcome of a choice we make NOW....
when He already knew it THEN.

There is no time for God.
A difficult concept for us to grasp.

Can't agree . God except for His Elect whom He choose before the foundation of this world (age) does not know whom will chose Him

 

[n2thelight]

He's not making them lost. He knows ahead of time that they will choose to not believe. But he makes them anyway, knowing he can reveal his power and wrath, and his glory through them to those who do believe.

Why does He need to reveal something to someone when He already knows their choice ?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have never head a calvinist say this. They mostly say that God's heart is hardened towards the unelected or at least that He does not care that they are predestined for hell which can only happen in a heart is hardened.

In all my years talking to calvinists, I have never heard any of them say that God un-hardened the hearts of the elect. This whole line of you laying out what God does needs not be limited to what you say God does. Do not put your words into the mouths of the calvinists. You think God is directly hardened and unhardening hearts, I have never heard a Calvinist go into such detail in the what is supposedly doing.

In Calvinism, all people start out as slaves to sin, hardened in sin in Adam. Only the elect, those predetermined by God in eternity past to be believers, have their hearts softened when they receive the effectual call of God's irresistible grace. This is Calvinism. This is not what I believe. The only thing I agree with in all that is all people start out enslaved in sin in Adam, because all sinned (Romans 5:12).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why does He need to reveal something to someone when He already knows their choice ?

The point is, God gains glory for himself when his power and wrath is revealed when he exercises his righteous judgment against unbelievers. And so the people he creates that he knows ahead of time will never choose to believe are useful to him that way. That's why he creates them, even though he knows they will never believe.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Your reply not making sense to me ,understand we talking about the death of the soul , how can He know and wish at the same time that no soul be lost?

That is a very profound question and I am very impressed! It’s one I hadn’t thought of expressed in that way.

What you’re asking is how God manages the pain of knowing their fate and still greatly desiring their well being.

This kind of pain I cannot imagine and the human mind is such that we cannot imagine pain that we do not actually have from our own circumstances. And this is way beyond.

But a parent who deeply loves their heading-for-hell wayward child might be the closest experience.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

In Calvinism, all people start out as slaves to sin, hardened in sin in Adam. Only the elect, those predetermined by God in eternity past to be believers, have their hearts softened when they receive the effectual call of God's irresistible grace.

I know you keep saying this but in all these years, I’ve never head a calvinist say this. And I don’t see all people having a hard heart. Some have tender hearts but are ignorant. Certainly children aren’t hard until maybe puberty.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Why does He need to reveal something to someone when He already knows their choice ?

The “revealing” is the part I question. The Bible says he calls or draws, not reveals. I don’t recall a testimony saying God “revealed” something to them. That’s not how new converts describe it.

He needs to use “reveal” because in his theology, God has most of the responsibility. He evens open up a small window of temporary free choice for the “rat” and then immediately closes it. So for him, God is fully controlling the seed being planted, something definitely NOT in the teaching Jesus just said where the seed fell and different people had different responses independent of the sower.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I know you keep saying this but in all these years, I’ve never head a calvinist say this. And I don’t see all people having a hard heart. Some have tender hearts but are ignorant. Certainly children aren’t hard until maybe puberty.

Hardness of heart results from sinning. And as I pointed out, all have sinned (Romans 5:12). Obviously, some are harder than others because of what sin has hardened them. But the point is, Calvinism says the effectual call of God's grace is ONLY given to those God purposely predestined before time began to be believers. And so they are the one's whose hearts are softened apart from any consideration of what they themselves might actually want. I know, it's a horrible doctrine. I believe God's holds his hands of grace out to all people enslaved and hardened in sin and gives each the opportunity to freely receive his grace and be received into the elect.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The “revealing” is the part I question. The Bible says he calls or draws, not reveals. I don’t recall a testimony saying God “revealed” something to them. That’s not how new converts describe it.

Here Paul talks more about this revealing of Jesus in power and might.

2 Thessalonians 1:7
7and to grant relief to you who are oppressed and to us as well. This will take place when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels

Here John talks about Jesus revealing himself to those who obey him.

John 14:21
21Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him.”

1 John 3:5-6
5But you know that Christ appeared to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6No one who remains in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has seen Him or known Him.