Free Will, Predeterminism and Predestination

[Jethro Bodine]

He needs to use “reveal” because in his theology, God has most of the responsibility. He evens open up a small window of temporary free choice for the “rat” and then immediately closes it.

Why is it important to you that the opportunity to freely believe the gospel not be controlled by God? Is it because you think that's Calvinism? As I've shown you the distinction of Calvinism is that this opportunity to believe is ONLY given to those God has determined ahead of time will be believers, not everybody as it is in Freewill theology. The distinction is not that God opens the door of faith to people–Acts 14:27.

"When they arrived, they gathered the church together and reported all that God had done through them, and how He had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles."

 

[Jethro Bodine]

He evens open up a small window of temporary free choice for the “rat” and then immediately closes it.

Isaiah 55:6
Seek the LORD while He may be found; call on Him while He is near.

And, no, he does not 'immediately' close it. God is patient, not willing that any should be lost.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So for him, God is fully controlling the seed being planted, something definitely NOT in the teaching Jesus just said where the seed fell and different people had different responses independent of the sower.

Jesus is the one who controls the seed being planted.

Matthew 13:37
37“The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.

 

[n2thelight]

If you reject Christ over and over and over again when he calls, eventually God stops calling and turns you over to your choice to not receive and believe the gospel. Then you will never be able to believe the gospel and be saved. God stops working your soil. Think very hard about what scripture says about this before you insist this isn't true.

What difference does it make if He already knows you not gonna answer ?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Men are chosen to have faith. 2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It starts with Cods choice, Sanctification of the Spirit to belief of the truth, the call of the Gospel

It says elected through faith, not elected to have faith. The plan is what was foreordained from the beginning, not who would participate in it. God established before creation that salvation would be through the election of faith, not the merit of one's works. Paul explains this in Romans 9:11 and surrounding verses.

 

[GodsGrace]

Can't agree . God except for His Elect whom He choose before the foundation of this world (age) does not know whom will chose Him

Hi n2thelight
God is omniscient.
He knows everything that will happen.
Including knowing who will choose Him and who will not.

Because you know that your son will choose chocolate ice-cream...
does not mean that you made him choose chocolate ice-cream...

You're stating by your statement that God is not omniscient.
This is incorrect Christian theology and should not even be discussed.

I would like to see some verses that state that God CHOSE whom He will save before the foundation of the world.
I can't remember any such verse.
Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

What difference does it make if He already knows you not gonna answer ?

This would be the difference between determination and free will.

God wishes that all men be saved as Paul tells us in 1 Timothy 2:4.
God has revealed Himself to man from the beginning of time so that man can know He exists...
Romans 1:19

However, man has free will to choose or not choose God and so it is always up to man to make that choice.
God gives to us enough grace to have the ability to choose Him IF WE WANT TO.
That is called prevenient grace. It is given to every man.
But not all men respond to it.

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,


Romans 10:9
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.



Where, in any of the above verses, does it state that God chose us before the beginning of the world??

 

[GodsGrace]

Why does He need to reveal something to someone when He already knows their choice ?

Great question.

Why indeed !

It's because God leaves it up to us as to whether or not we want to serve Him.

Why would Jesus have had to preach and teach and then die if it's up to God to choose who will be saved??

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What difference does it make if He already knows you not gonna answer ?

My guess is because it releases God from any possible accusation of injustice. By sowing seed on all soil, even soil he knows won't receive and retain the seed, God can't be accused of unjustly damning people to the lake of fire because he failed to sow his seed in them, even though he knows in his all-knowing that they weren't going to believe anyway. God certainly doesn't have to prove anything to anybody, but he does anyway. So the short answer to your question is he does it because he is just and fair.

An example of this is seen in Matthew 25:31-46. Jesus could just separate the righteous from the unrighteous as he knows them to be righteous or unrighteous. Instead, he uses our works as a public display to the universe that he is judging righteously when he sends some people to the lake of fire and other people into the kingdom of God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Because you know that your son will choose chocolate ice-cream...
does not mean that you made him choose chocolate ice-cream...

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hardness of heart results from sinning. And as I pointed out, all have sinned (Romans 5:12). Obviously, some are harder than others because of what sin has hardened them. But the point is, Calvinism says the effectual call of God's grace is ONLY given to those God purposely predestined before time began to be believers. And so they are the one's whose hearts are softened apart from any consideration of what they themselves might actually want. I know, it's a horrible doctrine. I believe God's holds his hands of grace out to all people enslaved and hardened in sin and gives each the opportunity to freely receive his grace and be received into the elect.

But I’ve never heard a calvinist say this is what happens. You keep repeating this but I think it’s a straw man argument. I’ve talked to plenty of them and no one has said this.

 

[Cooper]

Why is it important to you that the opportunity to freely believe the gospel not be controlled by God? Is it because you think that's Calvinism? As I've shown you the distinction of Calvinism is that this opportunity to believe is ONLY given to those God has determined ahead of time will be believers, not everybody as it is in Freewill theology. The distinction is not that God opens the door of faith to people–Acts 14:27.

"When they arrived, they gathered the church together and reported all that God had done through them, and how He had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles."

Coming to this late, just to say, if freewill is controlled by God, it is not freewill.
.

 

[jasonc]

But I’ve never heard a calvinist say this is what happens. You keep repeating this but I think it’s a straw man argument. I’ve talked to plenty of them and no one has said this.

My pastor and elders teach that .the arp demonotion predates America and is tied to the church in Scotland by way of the Westminster confession .

Honestly unless they hit any verse that they see it to support the five points they don't mention .there's much more to reformed theology the just the five points .we quote Luther often .

We sing a few of his hymns .

 

[Dorothy Mae]

My pastor and elders teach that .the arp demonotion predates America and is tied to the church in Scotland by way of the Westminster confession .

I don’t know what the aro demonotion is.

Honestly unless they hit any verse that they see it to support the five points they don't mention .there's much more to reformed theology the just the five points .we quote Luther often .

We sing a few of his hymns .

I know there’s more.

 

[jasonc]

I don’t know what the aro demonotion is.

I know there’s more.

Arp

Association of reformed Presbyterians.
Started in 1778.

The presbytery for my church Is a church that was built in 1855 in the spot of the older one that goes back to the times of colonial south Carolina .when the city of Columbus wants to find local history that church one their sources.irc .

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Arp

Association of reformed Presbyterians.
Started in 1778.

The presbytery for my church Is a church that was built in 1855 in the spot of the older one that goes back to the times of colonial south Carolina .when the city of Columbus wants to find local history that church one their sources.irc .

ok, thanks. I still haven’t seen a calvinist saying that Jethro says they do.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Jesus is the one who controls the seed being planted.

Matthew 13:37
37“The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.

Notice he doesn’t control it and says so. It even simply fell by gravity wherever.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Isaiah 55:6
Seek the LORD while He may be found; call on Him while He is near.

And, no, he does not 'immediately' close it. God is patient, not willing that any should be lost.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance.

He neither opens nor closes free will. What a horrible theology.

 

[Edward]

I don’t know what the aro demonotion is.

Lol! Is that a typo or a slur?

 

[GodsGrace]

But I’ve never heard a calvinist say this is what happens. You keep repeating this but I think it’s a straw man argument. I’ve talked to plenty of them and no one has said this.

Dorothy, been following along a little and what Jethro Bodine says is exactly what calvinism teaches.
He does NOT agree with calvinism, but I leave you two to battle it out.