Free Will, Predeterminism and Predestination

[GodsGrace]

Coming to this late, just to say, if freewill is controlled by God, it is not freewill.
.

Free will is shown throughout the OT and NT.
My experience has been that those of the reformed faith are unable to show, biblically, when free will was taken away from us.

That's because it never was.

It would be an unjust God indeed who held us responsible for actions that HE determined we should take.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Dorothy, been following along a little and what Jethro Bodine says is exactly what calvinism teaches.
He does NOT agree with calvinism, but I leave you two to battle it out.

Wondering, those two statements are opposite. Does Jethro say exactly what calvinism teaches or does he not agree with calvinism?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Free will is shown throughout the OT and NT.
My experience has been that those of the reformed faith are unable to show, biblically, when free will was taken away from us.

That's because it never was.

It would be an unjust God indeed who held us responsible for actions that HE determined we should take.

I have not heard a calvinist say man has no free will. Can you find one to substantiate that position?

 

[Cooper]

I have not heard a calvinist say man has no free will. Can you find one to substantiate that position?

When I talked to Calvinists years ago, they told me they were elected from the foundation of the earth, even before they were born, thereby ruling out free will. When I asked who told them this, they clammed up. I suspect it is those who walk through the doors of one of their churches.
.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

When I talked to Calvinists years ago, they told me they were elected from the foundation of the earth, even before they were born, thereby ruling out free will. When I asked who told them this, they clammed up. I suspect it is those who walk through the doors of one of their churches.
.

Do they say no one has free will? That is Jethro's point.

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering, those two statements are opposite. Does Jethro say exactly what calvinism teaches or does he not agree with calvinism?

Oops Sorry about that.
He does not agree with Calvinism.

In post 379 Jethro Bodine states:
Hardness of heart results from sinning. And as I pointed out, all have sinned (Romans 5:12). Obviously, some are harder than others because of what sin has hardened them. But the point is, Calvinism says the effectual call of God's grace is ONLY given to those God purposely predestined before time began to be believers. And so they are the one's whose hearts are softened apart from any consideration of what they themselves might actually want. I know, it's a horrible doctrine. I believe God's holds his hands of grace out to all people enslaved and hardened in sin and gives each the opportunity to freely receive his grace and be received into the elect.

He's explaining what calvinists believe ---
He does not agree with the underlined.

He said that "God holds His hands of grace out to all people enslaved and hardened in sin and gives each the opportunity to freely receive His grace and be received into the elect."

This is correct, of course.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

He neither opens nor closes free will. What a horrible theology.

Then please tell us how Hebrews 6:4-6 doesn't mean that God does not allow a person to be restored to repentance after they have fallen away.

4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— 6and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance

Explain how the passage is NOT preventing a person from exercising their free will to repent again after having fallen away despite the fact the passage says they can't. It doesn't matter what 'fallen away' means, so don't touch that forbidden subject (the forum doesn't allow it). Just tell us how the fallen away person CAN be restored to repentance despite the passage saying they can't.

 

[GodsGrace]

Do they say no one has free will? That is Jethro's point.

Yes.
Calvinists believe NO ONE had free will.

If God predestinates EVERYTHING...how could free will possibly be true?

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.

The Institutes
Book 3
Chapter 21
Paragraph 5

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But I’ve never heard a calvinist say this is what happens. You keep repeating this but I think it’s a straw man argument. I’ve talked to plenty of them and no one has said this.

The take away here is Calvinism doesn't teach that God makes some people unbelievers. In Calvinism, God does not predestine some to be unbelievers, he predestines some to be believers. For everyone is already an unbeliever because of the sin of Adam. And so he's not picking and choosing who will and who won't be an unbeliever. We are already that in Adam–all of us. He's picked ahead of time those who will be chosen to be believers out of all of us unbelievers.

But, to complicate matters, there is the reformed argument called 'double predestination' in which God does purposely predestine some to be unbelievers in the same way they say he purposely predestine some to be believers. This is a difference of doctrine within reformed theology, neither of which I subscribe to. I'm just telling you what they teach. Again, the defining, distinguishing feature of Calvinist Predestination being that God does all the choosing of who is going to be a believer and who is not, apart from any consideration whatsoever of what the person themselves may choose to be.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes.
Calvinists believe NO ONE had free will.

Can you get me a Calvinist to affirm that? Not a link please. A real one. There are some here. I have heard their explanations of salvation and I do not recall that free will was threatened.

If God predestinates EVERYTHING...how could free will possibly be true?

It is not my theology and that theology does not think very far avoiding questions they cannot answer. That is only one.

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.

The Institutes
Book 3

Free will is not mentioned. I need it to be mentioned as non-existing. You see, Calvinists do not think through their theology very deeply. They make statements that are nonsense and/or insulting and do not see it. Just poke a bit at their theology and they have to fun away if they are nice. If they aren't nice, you get a different experience. So I have not heard them say "no free will." I know you are inferring that this has to be their position, but I would like one of them to say it, not you infer it.

Chapter 21
Paragraph 5

Needs to say "no free will for any human being ever" or something like it. Again, I have heard their explanations of how salvation occurs in the elect and the negative of free was not mentioned and it is more like free will was supported just the choice was so obvious or compelling that their free will chose Jesus.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The take away here is Calvinism doesn't teach that God makes some people unbelievers. In Calvinism, God does not predestine some to be unbelievers, he predestines some to be believers. For everyone is already an unbeliever because of the sin of Adam. And so he's not picking and choosing who will and who won't be an unbeliever. We are already that. He's picked ahead of time those who will be chosen to be believers out of all of us unbelievers.

But, to complicate matters, there is the reformed argument called 'double predestination' in which God does purposely predestine some to be unbelievers in the same way they say he purposely predestine some to be believers. This is a difference of doctrine within reformed theology, neither of which I subscribe to. I'm just telling you what they teach.

I really need a calvinist to explain calvinism, not you. I have talked to a lot of them and never heard any of them say what you say they believe.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Then please tell us how Hebrews 6:4-6 doesn't mean that God does not allow a person to be restored to repentance after they have fallen away.

That verse does NOT SAY God does not allow them to be restored.

4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— 6and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance

See, God is not doing the action there. He is not removing free will. He is not closing them. He is not doing anything at all, it seems. You really read into scriptures your theology where it is not there at all. No "God took away" something.

Explain how the passage is NOT preventing a person from exercising their free will to repent again after having fallen away despite the fact the passage says they can't. It doesn't matter what 'fallen away' means, so don't touch that forbidden subject (the forum doesn't allow it). Just tell us how the fallen away person CAN be restored to repentance despite the passage saying they can't.

The passage does not address free will at all. It does not say it is removed. It says that these who have experienced so much of the power of God, once they freely choose to walk away ( for the reasons Jesus said people do), it is impossible for them to repentant. To experience restoration. Why? Because they personally tasted or know the goodness of God and the powers of the coming age, but their turning their back on that sears something in them. You could say they closed their own minds. Surely there is enough of that happening here to be able to see how this works. When a man steels himself to do evil, something happens to his heart. God has nothing to do with this and you ought not to lay that at his doorstep.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Coming to this late, just to say, if freewill is controlled by God, it is not freewill.

My point is, we do not have absolute free will. Our free will is limited because God only allows it to operate within the boundaries that God determines. This has NOTHING to do with Calvinism which says you don't have any free will at all in the matter of salvation. They say if you did that would be a self righteous works gospel.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I really need a calvinist to explain calvinism, not you. I have talked to a lot of them and never heard any of them say what you say they believe.

Please do that. I'm always open to refine my understanding of various doctrines in the church.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Please do that. I'm always open to refine my understanding of various doctrines in the church.

You need to find one. It is your insistence that you can present calvinism and of all the ones I have talked to over the years, none present their theology as you do. I suspect what you say they do not agree with.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

My point is, we do not have absolute free will. Our free will is limited because God only allows it to operate within the boundaries that God determines. This has NOTHING to do with Calvinism which says you don't have any free will at all in the matter of salvation. They say if you did that would be a self righteous works gospel.

I know that is your point. I totally disagree with it although why do you now insert "absolute?" What does that mean? We cannot will to fly by flapping our arms? Our will is not limited because God is actively allowing this but has set up boundaries that we all know. Jump off a cliff willing to fly and you will die. A man is very limited by the natural laws around him set up in the days of Genesis and the creation of the world. Atheists know these rules. God is not deciding each day which man has free will and taking it away from others as you think. He has better things to do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Can you get me a Calvinist to affirm that? Not a link please. A real one. There are some here. I have heard their explanations of salvation and I do not recall that free will was threatened.

The closest thing you'll get in Calvinism to free will is that God gives the elect the free will to receive the gospel. Which in my view is not free will. Free will has to have a component of alternate choices attached to it. Reformed theology says the elect do not have the choice to not believe. Their will is set to respond in only one way.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I know that is your point. I totally disagree with it although why do you now insert "absolute?" What does that mean? We cannot will to fly by flapping our arms? Our will is not limited because God is actively allowing this but has set up boundaries that we all know. Jump off a cliff willing to fly and you will die. A man is very limited by the natural laws around him set up in the days of Genesis and the creation of the world. Atheists know these rules. God is not deciding each day which man has free will and taking it away from others as you think. He has better things to do.

You have been showing that you believe all men have absolute unhindered freedom of will all of the time when it comes to whether or not they are going to receive or reject the gospel. I showed you from the Bible that simply is not true. Our will is free to the degree that God allows it, when he allows it. And that has NOTHING to do with Calvinism which says you have no free will whatsoever when it comes to the gospel. It says the elect ONLY have the will to receive the gospel when presented with the gospel.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The closest thing you'll get in Calvinism to free will is that God gives the elect the free will to receive the gospel. Which in my view is not free will. Free will has to have a component of alternate choices attached to it. Reformed theology says the elect do not have the choice to not believe. Their will is set to respond in only one way.

I have talked to a lot of them and have never heard ANY of them say this so I do not believe you fairly represent their view. wondering quoted a calvinist chapter and verse and no word about free will. And that was an official calvinist viewpoint. No word about what you say they believe.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You have been showing that you believe all men have absolute unhindered freedom of will all of the time when it comes to whether or not they are going to receive or reject the gospel.

I never said anything of the sort. I believe the parable of the different earths receiving the word describes what happens in reality. More than that I will not go. Please do not put words in to my mouth.

I showed you from the Bible that simply is not true. Our will is free to the degree that God allows it, when he allows it. And that has NOTHING to do with Calvinism which says you have no free will whatsoever when it comes to the gospel.

Well, I never said it was so that is easily dealt with. Strawmen are easy to burn down.