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Free Will, Predeterminism and Predestination

wondering said:
I agree with the above.
But we must come to believe whether or not we have free will.
Some persons even misunderstand free will, telling me they're not able to fly and so have no free will.
When we speak of free will biblically, what we're speaking of is exactly what is being discussed here.
Do we have moral free will?
Can we choose between more than one choice? Or between 2 opposing choices?

Personally, I've come to the conclusion that calvinism is heretical.
This just means that it goes against every doctrine (teaching) that is accepted by the mainline church - or denominations.

Take the hardening of Pharaoh's heart.
Exodus 4:21 tells us that God will harden P's heart. Why would God not want His people to be let go?
Exodus 7:3 tells us that God will harden P's heart so that He can multiply His signs and wonders. God needs this?
Exodus 8:32 tells us that P hardened his heart THIS TIME ALSO, and he did not let the people go.

THIS TIME ALSO?
What about the other 2 times?

Did God harden his heart or did he harden his own heart?

Perhaps a clue is in Romans 2:24 : God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts. IOW, God let them have their way if that is what they wanted.

Romans 2:5 Because of man's stubbernness and unrepentant heart YOU are storing up wrath for YOURSELF in the day of judgment.

So, apparently, it seems it might be a bit more complicated than we might believe.
Perhaps God leaves a person to harden their heart for His own reasons.

I can't get any closer to understanding than this.
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@Jethro upped the description by inserting the adjective “absolute” free will and accused me of believing that. Restricted to natural law was one easy example. The parable of the seeds is a more complex one. Did the person from whom the Devil takes away the seed have free will? Do you see that’s more complex? If he had said just “you believe in free will” I could have answered, but he deceptively changed the matter. I’ve noticed this tendency in false theologies. There is an element of cagey and a desire to entrap along with a stubborn unwillingness to think more deeply about their position.

So do you, for example, also agree with him that we are just “rats in a maze?”
 
wondering said:
You should post there and explain why your church does this.
The WHY is important, I think.
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The question is not put to me but I’ve always heard it was because of the inborn sin nature and the thought of if they die as babies/children they can be forgiven and go to heaven as a result of that ceremony.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
You're grasping.
What is it about the Son Of Man sowing the seed that you do not understand? That's a purposeful act.
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Hi Jethro, I would like you to explain this contradiction in your theology. Thank you.

You use Adam and Eve as a reason to downgrade women in church activities, and yet you ignore the same couple, who from the beginning of time, exercised free-will.

Please justify your apparent misuse of scripture clearly and concisely. Thank you, and if you did not know, those who are gracious enough to acknowledge their mistakes go up in people's estimation.
.
 
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wondering said:
You should post there and explain why your church does this.
The WHY is important, I think.
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I haven't had the access granted .

Just never really looked into why . Just not something I see as bad but the reformed doing it is strange .a baby is totally depraved and they will baptize him but not offer communion when they are at 8 or 9 .or when they are able but they won't baptize again.

I will ask
 
wondering said:
Some persons even misunderstand free will, telling me they're not able to fly and so have no free will.
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A literal, physical example like that is useful towards showing how our free will can and does operate within the larger scope of God's free will. That's how I would use it.
 
Cooper said:
Hi Jethro, I would like you to explain this contradiction in your theology. Thank you.

You use Adam and Eve as a reason to downgrade women in church activities, and yet you ignore the same couple, who from the beginning of time, exercised free-will.

Please justify your apparent misuse of scripture clearly and concisely. Thank you, and if you did not know, those who are gracious enough to acknowledge their mistakes go up in people's estimation.
.
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I just go by the plain words of the passage. Women are not permitted to seize authority over men because woman was formed second, and Eve was the one deceived, not Adam. No contradictions. No misunderstandings. That's literally what the passage says. A woman does not have free will to exercise authority over men. But she certainly has free will. Just not in that part of the rat maze.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
I find it so sad that your theology decides we are rats in a maze in God’s lab. What an insulting view of the Father!
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You can only move and about and do what God allows you to do. You make it like people are just free to believe or reject the gospel anytime and anywhere they want. You ignore the fact that God decides when the Holy Spirit will present you with the gospel, and how long He will do that.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
You can only move and about and do what God allows you to do. You make it like people are just free to believe or reject the gospel anytime and anywhere they want. You ignore the fact that God decides when the Holy Spirit will present you with the gospel, and how long He will do that.
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My spirit shall not strive with man forever.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
That verse says nothing of the kind.
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You don't get to believe just whenever you want to believe. Faith is a gift from God and comes to you when God decides to send the testimony of the Holy Spirit to you. I was in my late teens when God came to me in the conviction and power of the Holy Spirit. No salvation was going to occur until God did that. And he did that at his choosing, not mine. You gotta understand you can freely choose the gospel when God makes it available to you. That's you exercising your free will inside the confines of God's will. The Holy Spirit moves as He wills, not as you will.

John 3:8
8The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
 
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Jethro Bodine said:
I just go by the plain words of the passage. Women are not permitted to seize authority over men because woman was formed second, and Eve was the one deceived, not Adam. No contradictions. No misunderstandings. That's literally what the passage says. A woman does not have free will to exercise authority over men. But she certainly has free will. Just not in that part of the rat maze.
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Jethrow. Man means mankind or human being.

Man
A. Nouns.
'adam (H120), "man; mankind; people; someone (indefinite); Adam (the first man)." This noun appears in Ugaritic, Phoenician, and Punic. A word with the same radicals occurs in old South Arabic meaning "serf." In late Arabic the same radicals mean not only "mankind" but "all creation." Akkadian admu signifies "child." The Hebrew word appears about 562 times and in all periods of biblical Hebrew.
 
Cooper said:
Jethrow. Man means mankind or human being.

Man
A. Nouns.
'adam (H120), "man; mankind; people; someone (indefinite); Adam (the first man)." This noun appears in Ugaritic, Phoenician, and Punic. A word with the same radicals occurs in old South Arabic meaning "serf." In late Arabic the same radicals mean not only "mankind" but "all creation." Akkadian admu signifies "child." The Hebrew word appears about 562 times and in all periods of biblical Hebrew.
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So women are not permitted to have authority over mankind. Fine. Have it your way.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
It says elected through faith, not elected to have faith. The plan is what was foreordained from the beginning, not who would participate in it. God established before creation that salvation would be through the election of faith, not the merit of one's works. Paul explains this in Romans 9:11 and surrounding verses.
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No it doesnt say elected through faith, thats a blatant falsity. They were chosen to salvation, by the sanctification of the Spirit to belief of the Truth. Salvation by the Spirits work results in belief of the Truth, which is Faith.
 
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