Free Will, Predeterminism and Predestination

[Dorothy Mae]

God reigns supreme. He cursed the earth (Adam), He uses nature as appropriate allowing the Israelites to cross the river for example, and plagues etc. as punishment. One day the curse will be lifted when lion and lamb will lay down side by side. Just don't be thinking every bad thing that happens is God's punishment, it isn't. Hold in your mind that God loves his own and will keep and protect us as his precious children, and because the laws of nature are always in place and ongoing there will always be ice on the road causing accidents and earthquakes under the sea and on land with disastrous results, and that is how it has always been since before Adam and the curse.
.

If Jesus didn’t break the curse of sin and death, what did he do?

 

[Cooper]

If Jesus didn’t break the curse of sin and death, what did he do?

Redeemed his own, while leaving the curse of sin and death in place for the wicked.
.

 

[Cooper]

So we know that one of the attributes of God is that he is all-knowing and all-present,
which means that he knows everything past, present, and future.

We're told that we have also been given free will to make our own choices.

However, this would mean that nothing we choose out of our free will would come as a "surprise" to God as if he didn't know that was going to happen. He already knows then what choices we are going to make now and the future.

So this means 1 of 2 things.
Either
A) Everything is already predetermined and predestined by God and he knows all that will happen because he is not limited to time but outside of time which means seeing the past and future is simultaneous for him. There is only one universe/timeline that is going to play out and nothing else that would "surprise" God like a "twist" he didn't see coming.

or

B) God has created an infinite number of timelines/multiverses that exist BASED on every possible choice that every single human being makes in the history of this timeline. In other words, God would still know the outcome of all the infinite other possible timelines based on what choice I make today. So we still have free will to choose which timeline we are going to play out based on the choices I make today, right here, right now. God doesn't actually know which timeline I'm going to play out because it's my free will to choose BUT he does know what the outcome and entire timeline of every possible choice I make. (Follow me on this: So God already knows my entire life and timeline if I choose to disobey him and not live the life He wants for me AND he knows the entire life and timeline if I choose to obey him and follow him wholeheartedly. All the possible outcomes he already knows, but since we have free will, He is allows us to choose which timeline we are actually going to play out and that is the only part He doesn't actually know what I'll choose.

Please comment or correct me.

A good well-thought-out and rational post, but irrelevant if we remain faithful all the days of our life.

You ask, "what shall I choose?" I say, choose Jesus and follow him all the days of your life.
.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Redeemed his own, while leaving the curse of sin and death in place for the wicked.
.

Ah yes, calvinism that left the unchosen in misery. It’s not what I believe it see. I see in scripture and life that Jesus triumphed over demonic powers.

 

[Cooper]

Ah yes, calvinism that left the unchosen in misery. It’s not what I believe it see. I see in scripture and life that Jesus triumphed over demonic powers.

Jesus cast out demons and cleanses us from sin.
It pays not to add to, or take away from scripture, for every wrong word is another nail in that person's coffin.
.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Jesus cast out demons and cleanses us from sin.
It pays not to add to, or take away from scripture, for every wrong word is another nail in that person's coffin.
.

“And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.”

Past tense

 

[GodsGrace]

I always thought God's plan for us was different for each individual besides loving Christ as our personal savior. It's confusing because i am always seeing post that reflect their personal wants that are not being answered. For instance. God doesn't want me to marry because he hasn't provided a spouse or i guess it wasn't in God's plan for me to get that job because i didn't get it, etc.

I believe that God's will for us is being in a walking relationship with Him where we listen to His laws, rules, commandments. Where we try to adhere to His teachings so that our life could be a better place.

For instance, you brought up finding a wife.
How to know if someone would make a good wife?
We're told that she must be loved like the very body of the husband.
And thus she is able to be submissive to the order the husband sets in the household.
It's not that God is going to send a specific woman at some point in time and she'll be doused in a shining light!

 

[GodsGrace]

God reigns supreme. He cursed the earth (Adam), He uses nature as appropriate allowing the Israelites to cross the river for example, and plagues etc. as punishment. One day the curse will be lifted when lion and lamb will lay down side by side. Just don't be thinking every bad thing that happens is God's punishment, it isn't. Hold in your mind that God loves his own and will keep and protect us as his precious children, and because the laws of nature are always in place and ongoing there will always be ice on the road causing accidents and earthquakes under the sea and on land with disastrous results, and that is how it has always been since before Adam and the curse.
.

Hey Cooper,
This is too off-topic and should be continued in the thread that you liked....
Please see WHO IS THE RULER OF THE EARTH
Under: THEOLOGY

to continue this discussion with Dorothy Mae


Thanks.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

How do we feel about what Job said about those who surrounded him with words of mocking?

Job 17:2-5 NLT - "I am surrounded by mockers. I watch how bitterly they taunt me. "You must defend my innocence, O God, since no one else will stand up for me. You have closed their minds to understanding, but do not let them triumph. They betray their friends for their own advantage, so let their children faint with hunger."

Job makes the point that these whose minds have been closed to understanding the Truth, they are quite frankly . . . abusive. They mock and bitterly taunt, betraying their friends for personal gain. It seems clear that for those who have not received the Circumcision of Christ, this is the basic behavior that this group of people entertains.

Is this a fair analysis, that those whose minds have been limited to a specific type of thinking could not possibly possess "free will?"

 

[electedbyHim]

How do we feel about what Job said about those who surrounded him with words of mocking?

Job 17:2-5 NLT - "I am surrounded by mockers. I watch how bitterly they taunt me. "You must defend my innocence, O God, since no one else will stand up for me. You have closed their minds to understanding, but do not let them triumph. They betray their friends for their own advantage, so let their children faint with hunger."

Job makes the point that these whose minds have been closed to understanding the Truth, they are quite frankly . . . abusive. They mock and bitterly taunt, betraying their friends for personal gain. It seems clear that for those who have not received the Circumcision of Christ, this is the basic behavior that this group of people entertains.

Is this a fair analysis, that those whose minds have been limited to a specific type of thinking could not possibly possess "free will?"

I am firm believer that the only "free will" man has, is to sin. Until one is regenerated they can do nothing good. Even the supposed "good deeds" that come from the unregenerate are influenced by sin (pride).

 

[Dorothy Mae]

How do we feel about what Job said about those who surrounded him with words of mocking?

Job 17:2-5 NLT - "I am surrounded by mockers. I watch how bitterly they taunt me. "You must defend my innocence, O God, since no one else will stand up for me. You have closed their minds to understanding, but do not let them triumph. They betray their friends for their own advantage, so let their children faint with hunger."

Job makes the point that these whose minds have been closed to understanding the Truth, they are quite frankly . . . abusive. They mock and bitterly taunt, betraying their friends for personal gain. It seems clear that for those who have not received the Circumcision of Christ, this is the basic behavior that this group of people entertains.

Is this a fair analysis, that those whose minds have been limited to a specific type of thinking could not possibly possess "free will?"

I’m a female. We aren’t circumcised.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

How do we feel about what Job said about those who surrounded him with words of mocking?

He was under great stress and all
but 1 were wrong

Is this a fair analysis, that those whose minds have been limited to a specific type of thinking could not possibly possess "free will?"

No, they still have free will.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am firm believer that the only "free will" man has, is to sin. Until one is regenerated they can do nothing good. Even the supposed "good deeds" that come from the unregenerate are influenced by sin (pride).

Some Christians do good deeds due to pride too.

There are some that give away a lot of money and do not care to let anyone know about their generosity.
I'd say that UNLESS one is regenerated, his good deeds are not worth anything because belief in God is paramount to doing good deeds. After that, then good deeds are expected.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Some Christians do good deeds due to pride too.

There are some that give away a lot of money and do not care to let anyone know about their generosity.
I'd say that UNLESS one is regenerated, his good deeds are not worth anything because belief in God is paramount to doing good deeds. After that, then good deeds are expected.

It’s hard to do good and not brag. It’s hard to be involved in Gods working through with bragging. I think the latter is worse pride.

 

[GodsGrace]

It’s hard to do good and not brag. It’s hard to be involved in Gods working through with bragging. I think the latter is worse pride.

I agree, because the latter should know better.
Good point.

 

[WIP]

It’s hard to do good and not brag.

I don't know about that. There are people all around me that are very generous and it's their way of life. I have never heard them brag or make mention of it at all.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

I’m a female. We aren’t circumcised.

Ahhh. Women are not eligible for the Circumcision of Christ?

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

He was under great stress and all
but 1 were wrong

No, they still have free will.

I see. Do you believe that even when a person's ability to understand is restrained, that they are still open to choosing? How can we choose if we haven't been given options? That isn't "free will," but instead, that is what it means to be controlled, to be corralled into a specific area of thought, belief, and action.

Have a great day!

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

He was under great stress and all
but 1 were wrong

No, they still have free will.

Hi Dorothy,

How do you feel about the below passages? Are we to learn anything about ourselves in this set of Scripture, or do they apply to others of times past exclusively?

All are encouraged to respond if you'd like. Thanks!

~David~

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hi Dorothy,

How do you feel about the below passages? Are we to learn anything about ourselves in this set of Scripture, or do they apply to others of times past exclusively?

All are encouraged to respond if you'd like. Thanks!

~David~

Hi David,

Did you forget to put in the passages?

-Dorothy