Free Will, Predeterminism and Predestination

[Dorothy Mae]

Ahhh. Women are not eligible for the Circumcision of Christ?

Well, it is a metaphor that women do not relate to.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I see. Do you believe that even when a person's ability to understand is restrained, that they are still open to choosing? How can we choose if we haven't been given options? That isn't "free will," but instead, that is what it means to be controlled, to be corralled into a specific area of thought, belief, and action.

Have a great day!

How and why ia a person's ability to understand restrained? That question needs to be answered first. Are they closing their minds because they don't like what will happen if they understood? That then is a choice that they are making.

What do you mean by not being given options? In what choice? I mean there is the Russian election or referendum option, one man, one vote, one choice which is no choice or what do you mean?

What do you mean by being "corralled into a specific area" and who is doing the corralling?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I don't know about that. There are people all around me that are very generous and it's their way of life. I have never heard them brag or make mention of it at all.

That is great to hear. I am glad. You are fortunate.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Hi David,

Did you forget to put in the passages?

-Dorothy

Oh, my goodness! :D

Here they are:

Job 23:13-17 NLT - "But once he has made his decision, who can change his mind? Whatever he wants to do, he does. So he will do to me whatever he has planned. He controls my destiny. No wonder I am so terrified in his presence. When I think of it, terror grips me. God has made me sick at heart; the Almighty has terrified me. Darkness is all around me; thick, impenetrable darkness is everywhere."

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Well, it is a metaphor that women do not relate to.

Yes, I hear you. The thing is, is that the Spiritual Circumcision of Christ is what releases a person from the Curse of the Lord. It is the removal of the Sins of the Flesh, which is a "body" of behavior that is established by their Spiritual Father, Satan. All people must be Redeemed of this Curse if they are to receive the gift of Repentance, the Holy Spirit, and of course, if a person isn't freed of this Curse, it is impossible to believe in Christ in order to be made Right with God.

Spiritual Circumcision is the very fulcrum of the Christian Faith. And, the reason why Circumcision is a term that women do not relate to is that today's teachers and preachers do not understand it. And of course, this means that our preachers and teachers do not understand the actual Gospel. They do not understand Matthew 1:1.

Matthew 1:1 KJV - "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham."

Have a great night! (I think you're on the other side of the planet). :D

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Are they closing their minds because they don't like what will happen if they understood?

Good morning (from America!)

Well, "they" didn't close their minds, but instead, it was the Lord who controlled their minds. Here it is again:

Job 17:4 NLT - "You have closed their minds to understanding, but do not let them triumph."

How and why ia a person's ability to understand restrained?

God wants us to know that He alone takes responsibility for the way and direction in which these "mockers" think. If God controls the way and direction in which a person thinks, they are not in full, willful control over their thoughts, behaviors, and words.

I hope that this addresses your questions.

~David~

 

[electedbyHim]

Some Christians do good deeds due to pride too.

There are some that give away a lot of money and do not care to let anyone know about their generosity.
I'd say that UNLESS one is regenerated, his good deeds are not worth anything because belief in God is paramount to doing good deeds. After that, then good deeds are expected.

Yes many Christians do that from pride.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Good morning (from America!)

Well, "they" didn't close their minds, but instead, it was the Lord who controlled their minds. Here it is again:

Job 17:4 NLT - "You have closed their minds to understanding, but do not let them triumph."

If you read the rest of what Job says, in that chapter as well, you’ll find he has to repent of what he said. Verse 1:
; my days are extinct;
the graveyard is ready for me.

Is this true? No, it wasn’t. His days weren’t extinct and the grave wasn’t ready for him. There is more. And God rebuked those friends, all but one. So we cannot take all the words of Job as though he was explaining God to people. He had to repent of those words.

God wants us to know that He alone takes responsibility for the way and direction in which these "mockers" think.

That was Job not God talking and the Bible clearly says in Matthew 12:37 that we alone will be held responsible for what we say. That’s the opposite of your position.

If God controls the way and direction in which a person thinks, they are not in full, willful control over their thoughts, behaviors, and words.

As you can see, that’s not true.

I hope that this addresses your questions.

~David~

I had a question?

 

[returntosender]

I believe that God's will for us is being in a walking relationship with Him where we listen to His laws, rules, commandments. Where we try to adhere to His teachings so that our life could be a better place.

For instance, you brought up finding a wife.
How to know if someone would make a good wife?
We're told that she must be loved like the very body of the husband.
And thus she is able to be submissive to the order the husband sets in the household.
It's not that God is going to send a specific woman at some point in time and she'll be doused in a shining light!

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

That was Job not God talking and the Bible clearly says in Matthew 12:37 that we alone will be held responsible for what we say. That’s the opposite of your position.

Ahhh....I haven't heard that "take" before. I have always thought that whatever the Bible had to say, it was God talking to us.

I realize that these things may not be sitting well with you, but after considering much Scripture, the Biblical concept will begin to make more and more sense. Anyway, here is a passage where Paul states that God put the vast majority of Israel into a deep sleep. He quotes Isaiah.

Romans 11:7-8 NLT - "So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."

Are you as amazed as I am about the incredible Power of God, that He can select specific people, the vast majority of the Jewish Nation, and determine the manner in which it thinks?

That's right . . . that's how Powerful our God is. The Bible is riddled with these stories.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Ahhh....I haven't heard that "take" before. I have always thought that whatever the Bible had to say, it was God talking to us.

The Bible is a collection of books written by men who walked with God and wrote about Him in various forms such as the history, in poetry, and so on. It is meant to be read by people who think about the contents and what the author was saying. It is not a collection of individual sentences. If we selected out, for example, the lies that the Devil said as individual sentences and claim that because that is in the Bible it is true, we are deceiving ourselves. People wrote things down that were their expressions in, say the pits of despair, which comfort others in those situations but are NOT a reflection of life as a whole. Solomon wrote very depressing and untrue statements. "All life is useless" is not a reflection of how life is but it did reflect his depression.

I realize that these things may not be sitting well with you, but after considering much Scripture, the Biblical concept will begin to make more and more sense. Anyway, here is a passage where Paul states that God put the vast majority of Israel into a deep sleep.

Ah contrar. I understand you and your view very well. Those is the light see clearly those who are in the fog of darkness. Those in darkness see neither themselves nor others. So I understand you and see the deception you are in.

He quotes Isaiah.

Romans 11:7-8 NLT - "So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."

Lets look down at verse 23 of that chapter: And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Opps, we see here that they, the people, need to not persist in unbelief. Hummmm, God is not waking them up and God is not unhardening their hearts but they, themselves, need to do this. So no, He is not doing this as you suggest. He is not guilty of this evil that you are accusing him of doing.

Are you as amazed as I am about the incredible Power of God, that He can select specific people, the vast majority of the Jewish Nation, and determine the manner in which it thinks?

I am only amazed that you can so blithely accuse God of evil and then delight in it. Same chapter you chose warns you: Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

That's right . . . that's how Powerful our God is. The Bible is riddled with these stories.

He is also severe and you ought to think twice about accusing him of evil to others. You will have to answer for that false accusation.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

People wrote things down that were their expressions in, say the pits of despair, which comfort others in those situations but are NOT a reflection of life as a whole. Solomon wrote very depressing and untrue statements. "All life is useless" is not a reflection of how life is but it did reflect his depression.

I hear you. It is quite a challenge to figure out which Scriptures we are to take seriously, and those we are able to toss out as an "untrue (Biblical) statement." - Gosh, that sounds like a scary walk!

And as for "all life is useless," perhaps Solomon had some insight that perhaps doesn't make sense to us. What if Solomon were speaking from the Spiritual Realms? What if Solomon was approaching this "life" from the side of the Spiritual world? I would offer that until we begin to see "life" from the Spiritual Side, not much is going to make sense.

Ah contrar. I understand you and your view very well. Those is the light see clearly those who are in the fog of darkness. Those in darkness see neither themselves nor others. So I understand you and see the deception you are in.

Whew! I was hoping that someone on earth would get me all figured out for myself! Glad to have you here so that we have someone to turn to who can get us all sorted out. :yes You're so funny.

Hummmm, God is not waking them up and God is not unhardening their hearts but they, themselves, need to do this. So no, He is not doing this as you suggest. He is not guilty of this evil that you are accusing him of doing.

Wow! This is an amazing denial of Scripture. lol

I am only amazed that you can so blithely accuse God of evil and then delight in it.

Bwahahahaha. What are you going on about? Look, I'm here for simple conversation. Is that not why you're here? I mean, your heart seems to be filled with the desire to argue. If that's the case, I'm more than happy to walk away. But me, I'm not here to fight or develop crazy speech about "fog" and all of that.

But, if you're here to enjoy yourself and discover perspectives that you may not have, I'd enjoy chatting with you. But if not, then yuck. No thanks.

Have a great day, Dorothy Mae!

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

He is also severe and you ought to think twice about accusing him of evil to others.

How many people do you think that you have personally been so rude to, that just days after joining this forum, they decided to leave?

The things you are saying are just harsh . . . I hope you feel better soon.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

How many people do you think that you have personally been so rude to, that just days after joining this forum, they decided to leave?

None. I’m direct, not rude. All the ones I know who left were because of one moderate/admin and said so. There was more than one.

The things you are saying are just harsh . . . I hope you feel better soon.

Oh, that’s very rude. I love truth and I love God. And Im very sorry when my brethren accuse God of evil. I’m sorry for them.

But if you would check out what truth told men He loved, my words are quite mild in comparison.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

And Im very sorry when my brethren accuse God of evil.

I have no idea of what you're going on about and don't have time to figure it out. Take care.

 

[jasonc]

The times of the gentiles ,exactly what is it ?

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

The times of the gentiles ,exactly what is it ?

Interesting. I've never heard of this, but perhaps it is a reference to the number of Gentiles to be included in the Vine?

Romans 11:25 NLT - "I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ."

It should be noted that these who have "hard hearts," well . . . their ability to think, act, and speak has been generally determined by the "hard hard" status. Those who have "hard hearts" do not have the same ability to think, therefore, their sense of "free will" is, at a bare minimum, limited.

Our God is incredibly powerful!

 

[jasonc]

It's more about the vessel God uses.

Isreal rejected him .some say when it's right God will then turn to deal with isreal and cause repentance

 

[n2thelight]

The only thing I would say is that God knows the beginning from the end and everything in between, and he knows the choices we will make. Let us then choose Him and remain obedient to him all the days of our life, and if not, then Good Shepherd will come seeking those who are lost. God is ever faithful.
Amen.
.

Can't agree with that ,He knows what the Elect will do as they were chosen .Ask yourself a question, why did God interfere in some lives but not others ? Let's look at Paul for an example , was he not persecuting Christians ?

Why did God interfere in his life ? Will say this again ,just because one is saved does not mean they are of the Elect .
God does not know who will chose Him except for the elect whom He already justified even before they were placed in the womb of woman

 

[Cooper]

Can't agree with that ,He knows what the Elect will do as they were chosen .Ask yourself a question, why did God interfere in some lives but not others ? Let's look at Paul for an example , was he not persecuting Christians ?

Why did God interfere in his life ? Will say this again ,just because one is saved does not mean they are of the Elect .
God does not know who will chose Him except for the elect whom He already justified even before they were placed in the womb of woman

I don't know about you, but I worship an all knowing God.
.