Free Will, Predeterminism and Predestination

[Cooper]

This.

Romans 8:20-21
20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Disobedience and sin is the part of the maze that God has bound all men over to and where we exercise our free will. We can't escape this moral boundary until God calls us through the gospel and we respond in faith and are transformed. Then the "glorious freedom of the children of God" part of the maze is opened up to us and we exercise our free will there.

We can't escape this moral boundary until God calls us through the gospel and we respond in faith and are transformed. (Jethrow)

What happened to predestined?
.

 

[Cooper]

So we know that one of the attributes of God is that he is all-knowing and all-present,
which means that he knows everything past, present, and future.

We're told that we have also been given free will to make our own choices.

However, this would mean that nothing we choose out of our free will would come as a "surprise" to God as if he didn't know that was going to happen. He already knows then what choices we are going to make now and the future.

So this means 1 of 2 things.
Either
A) Everything is already predetermined and predestined by God and he knows all that will happen because he is not limited to time but outside of time which means seeing the past and future is simultaneous for him. There is only one universe/timeline that is going to play out and nothing else that would "surprise" God like a "twist" he didn't see coming.

or

B) God has created an infinite number of timelines/multiverses that exist BASED on every possible choice that every single human being makes in the history of this timeline. In other words, God would still know the outcome of all the infinite other possible timelines based on what choice I make today. So we still have free will to choose which timeline we are going to play out based on the choices I make today, right here, right now. God doesn't actually know which timeline I'm going to play out because it's my free will to choose BUT he does know what the outcome and entire timeline of every possible choice I make. (Follow me on this: So God already knows my entire life and timeline if I choose to disobey him and not live the life He wants for me AND he knows the entire life and timeline if I choose to obey him and follow him wholeheartedly. All the possible outcomes he already knows, but since we have free will, He is allows us to choose which timeline we are actually going to play out and that is the only part He doesn't actually know what I'll choose.

Please comment or correct me.

The only thing I would say is that God knows the beginning from the end and everything in between, and he knows the choices we will make. Let us then choose Him and remain obedient to him all the days of our life, and if not, then Good Shepherd will come seeking those who are lost. God is ever faithful.
Amen.
.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We can't escape this moral boundary until God calls us through the gospel and we respond in faith and are transformed. (Jethrow)

What happened to predestined?
.

Nothing happened to it. People who believe and are saved are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ.

Romans 8:29
29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son

That's the plan that God determined ahead of time.

See, predestination is not an un-Biblical term. It's just that so many people instantly think it means what Calvinism says it means. But as we can see it means people who believe are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. That's the plan God has for the elect. The elect being those who have faith in God and who were elected (chosen) on the basis of that faith, not their works.

Romans 9:11-12
11Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, 12not by works but by Him who calls

That has been the plan all along before time began. Salvation will be through faith, not works, and that those who have faith will be conformed to the image of Christ and no longer exist in the image of Adam.

 

[Cooper]

Nothing happened to it. People who believe and are saved are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ.

Romans 8:29
29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son

That's the plan that God determined ahead of time.

See, predestination is not an un-Biblical term. It's just that so many people instantly think it means what Calvinism says it means. But as we can see it means people who believe are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. That's the plan God has for the elect. The elect being those who have faith in God and who were elected (chosen) on the basis of that faith, not their works.

Romans 9:11-12
11Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, 12not by works but by Him who calls

That has been the plan all along before time began. Salvation will be through faith, not works, and that those who have faith will be conformed to the image of Christ.

What does it mean when Calvinists say they are elected?

Bed calls.
.

 

[Tenchi]

www.soteriology101.com

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What does it mean when Calvinists say they are elected?

Bed calls.
.

Elected means chosen. Calvinists say predestination means God determined ahead of time before the creation of the world that he would purposely make some people to be believers apart from any consideration of the person themselves deciding if they want to be a believer. And so these people, chosen by God ahead of time to be believers, constitute the elect.

In Freewill Theology, being elected means a person is chosen (elected) to salvation when they, of their own volition, respond to the gospel message and have faith in God. And predestination means God has determined ahead of time that all who believe will be conformed to the image of Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

Is this helpful?

Evil, Evil-doer
A. Adjectives.
1. kakos (G2556) stands for "whatever is evil in character, base," in distinction (wherever the distinction is observable) from poneros (see No. 2), which indicates "what is evil in influence and effect, malignant." Kakos is the wider term and often covers the meaning of poneros. Kakos is antithetic to kalos, "fair, advisable, good in character," and to agathos, "beneficial, useful, good in act"; hence it denotes what is useless, incapable, bad; poneros is essentially antithetic to chrestos, "kind, gracious, serviceable"; hence it denotes what is destructive, injurious, evil. As evidence that poneros and kakos have much in common, though still not interchangeable, each is used of thoughts, cf. Mat_15:19 with Mar_7:21; of speech, Mat_5:11 with 1Pe_3:10; of actions, 2Ti_4:18 with 1Th_5:15; of man, Mat_18:32 with Mat_24:48.
The use of kakos may be broadly divided as follows: (a) of what is morally or ethically "evil," whether of persons, e.g., Mat_21:41; Mat_24:48; Php_3:2; Rev_2:2, or qualities, emotions, passions, deeds, e.g., Mar_7:21; Joh_18:23, Joh_18:30; Rom_1:30; Rom_3:8; Rom_7:19, Rom_7:21; Rom_13:4; Rom_14:20; Rom_16:19; 1Co_13:5; 2Co_13:7; 1Th_5:15; 1Ti_6:10; 2Ti_4:14; 1Pe_3:9, 1Pe_3:12; (b) of what is injurious, destructive, baneful, pernicious, e.g., Luk_16:25; Act_16:28; Act_28:5; Tit_1:12; Jas_3:8; Rev_16:2, where kakos and poneros come in that order, "noisome and grievous." See B, No. 3. For compounds of kakos, see below.

2. poneros (G4190), akin to ponos, "labor, toil," denotes "evil that causes labor, pain, sorrow, malignant evil" (see No. 1); it is used (a) with the meaning bad, worthless, in the physical sense, Mat_7:17-18; in the moral or ethical sense, "evil," wicked; of persons, e.g., Mat_7:11; Luk_6:45; Act_17:5; 2Th_3:2; 2Ti_3:13; of "evil" spirits, e.g., Mat_12:45; Luk_7:21; Act_19:12-13, Act_19:15-16; of a generation, Mat_12:39, Mat_12:45; Mat_16:4; Luk_11:29; of things, e.g., Mat_5:11; Mat_6:23; Mat_20:15; Mar_7:22; Luk_11:34; Joh_3:19; Joh_7:7; Act_18:14; Gal_1:4; Col_1:21; 1Ti_6:4; 2Ti_4:18; Heb_3:12; Heb_10:22; Jas_2:4; Jas_4:16; 1Jn_3:12; 2Jn_1:11; 3Jn_1:10; (b) with the meaning toilsome, painful, Eph_5:16; Eph_6:13; Rev_16:2. Cf. poneria, "iniquity, wickedness." For its use as a noun see B, No. 2.

3. phaulos (G5337) primarily denotes "slight, trivial, blown about by every wind"; then, "mean, common, bad," in the sense of being worthless, paltry or contemptible, belonging to a low order of things; in Joh_5:29, those who have practiced "evil" things, RV, "ill" (phaula), are set in contrast to those who have done good things (agatha); the same contrast is presented in Rom_9:11 and 2Co_5:10, in each of which the most authentic mss. have phaulos for kakos; he who practices "evil" things (RV, "ill") hates the light, Joh_3:20; jealousy and strife are accompanied by "every vile deed," Jas_3:16. It is used as a noun in Tit_2:8 (see B, No. 4). See BAD, ILL, VILE.

B. Nouns.
1. kakia (G2549), primarily, "badness" in quality (akin to A, No. 1), denotes (a) "wickedness, depravity, malignity," e.g., Act_8:22, "wickedness"; Rom_1:29, "maliciousness"; in Jas_1:21, KJV, "naughtiness"; (b) "the evil of trouble, affliction," Mat_6:34, only, and here alone translated "evil." see MALICE, MALICIOUSNESS, NAUGHTINESS, WICKEDNESS.

2. poneros (G4190), the adjective (A, No. 2), is used as a noun, (a) of Satan as the "evil" one, Mat_5:37; Mat_6:13; Mat_13:19, Mat_13:38; Luk_11:4 (in some texts); Joh_17:15; Eph_6:16; 2Th_3:3; 1Jn_2:13-14; 1Jn_3:12; 1Jn_5:18-19; (b) of human beings, Mat_5:45; (probably Mat_5:39); Mat_13:49; Mat_22:10; Luk_6:35; 1Co_5:13; (c) neuter, "evil (things)," Mat_9:4; Mat_12:35; Mar_7:23; Luk_3:19; "that which is evil," Luk_6:45; Rom_12:9; Act_28:21, "harm."

3. kakon (G2556), the neuter of A, No. 1, is used with the article, as a noun, e.g., Act_23:9; Rom_7:21; Heb_5:14; in the plural, "evil things," e.g., 1Co_10:6; 1Ti_6:10, "all kinds of evil," RV.

4. phaulon (G5337), the neuter of A, No. 3, is used as a noun in Tit_2:8.
5. kakopoios (G2555), properly the masculine gender of the adjective, denotes an "evil-doer" (kakon, "evil," poieo, "to do"), 1Pe_2:12, 1Pe_2:14; 1Pe_4:15; in some mss. in 1Pe_3:16 and Joh_18:30 (so the KJV). For a synonymous word see Note (1). Cf. the verb below. In the Sept., Pro_12:4; Pro_24:19. See MALEFACTOR.
Notes: (1) Kakourgos, "an evil-worker" (kakon, "evil," ergon, "a work"), is translated "evil-doer" in 2Ti_2:9, KJV (RV, "malefactor"). Cf. Luk_23:32-33, Luk_23:39.

(2) Adikema, "an injustice" (a, negative, dikaios, "just"), is translated "evil-doing," in Act_24:20, KJV, RV, "wrong-doing." see INIQUITY, WRONG.
C. Verbs.

1. kakoo (G2559), "to ill-treat" (akin to A, No. 1), is rendered "to entreat evil" in Act_7:6, Act_7:19; "made (them) evil affected," Act_14:2. See AFFECT, AFFLICT, HARM, HURT, VEX.

2. kakopoieo (G2554) signifies "to do evil" (cf. B, No. 5), Mar_3:4 (RV, "to do harm"); so, Luk_6:9; in 3Jn_1:11, "doeth evil"; in 1Pe_3:17, "evil doing." see HARM.
Note: Cf. kakologeo, "to speak evil" (see CURSE, SPEAK); kakopatheo, "to endure evil" (see ENDURE, SUFFER); kakopatheia, suffering affliction" (see SUFFER); kakoucheo, "to suffer adversity" (see SUFFER).

D. Adverb.
kakos (G2560), "badly, evilly," akin to A, No. 1, is used in the physical sense, "to be sick," e.g., Mat_4:24; Mar_1:32, Mar_1:34; Luk_5:31 (see DISEASE). In Mat_21:41 this adverb is used with the adjective, "He will miserably destroy those miserable men," more lit., "He will evilly destroy those men (evil as they are)," with stress on the adjective; (b) in the moral sense, "to speak evilly," Joh_18:23; Act_23:5; to ask evilly, Jas_4:3. See AMISS, GRIEVOUSLY, SICK, SORE.

It would be good to look up the references to see the context.
.

What about D...adverb.
Matthew 4:24 for example.

 

[GodsGrace]

This.

Romans 8:20-21
20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

How is this a moral boundary?
Romans 8:20-21 is speaking about how creation has fallen into God's curse.
Creation has to do with the physical, not the moral.
One day all of creation will be liberated. (from death and decay).
As will God's children.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Disobedience and sin is the part of the maze that God has bound all men over to and where we exercise our free will. We can't escape this moral boundary until God calls us through the gospel and we respond in faith and are transformed. Then the "glorious freedom of the children of God" part of the maze is opened up to us and we exercise our free will there.

I can understand Romans 11:32 as being moral in nature.

A question:
Does God give everyone that chance to be saved?

 

[brightfame52]

No, a man need only have faith through a visitation of the Holy Spirit through the word of the gospel to then receive and retain the word to be saved.

Nope first thing a spiritually dead sinner needs is to be made alive.

 

[GodsGrace]

And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil
And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. (H7451)

(Gen 2:9 KJV) H7451 רָעָה רַע ra‛ râ‛âh rah, raw-aw'

From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]

Total KJV occurrences: 664

I do not see sad, sore, sorrow, trouble the same as I see murder for example. Neither should a sad, sorrowful person be killed, they need love and care. As usual, context is so important.
.

See the blue highlighted above.
This refers to physical evil.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How is this a moral boundary?
Romans 8:20-21 is speaking about how creation has fallen into God's curse.
Creation has to do with the physical, not the moral.

Read it in context. He's talking about the battle with sin and the flesh.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I can understand Romans 11:32 as being moral in nature.

A question:
Does God give everyone that chance to be saved?

I think so. But he is sovereign, and he knows all things. Perhaps there are people, based on things that only he knows, that he does not call. But I would think that number of people to be very, very few in number in all of history.

 

[Cooper]

Elected means chosen. Calvinists say predestination means God determined ahead of time before the creation of the world that he would purposely make some people to be believers apart from any consideration of the person themselves deciding if they want to be a believer. And so these people, chosen by God ahead of time to be believers, constitute the elect.

In Freewill Theology, being elected means a person is chosen (elected) to salvation when they, of their own volition, respond to the gospel message and have faith in God. And predestination means God has determined ahead of time that all who believe will be conformed to the image of Christ.

The "some people" would include Moses, Abraham, David, and others, for example the Saints in Hebrews.
.

 

[GodsGrace]

Read it in context. He's talking about the battle with sin and the flesh.

Agreed.
Chapter 8 is indeed about moral issues.
But why post 8:20-21??
It speaks of all CREATION being subjected to God's curse.
Do you include man with all creation?
But if so, it wouldn't then go on to say that all creation looks forward to the day when it will join GOD'S CHILDREN.


I'm still having a problem understanding moral boundaries...
It might just be a concept that might take some time...

 

[GodsGrace]

I think so. But he is sovereign, and he knows all things. Perhaps there are people, based on things that only he knows, that he does not call. But I would think that number of people to be very, very few in number in all of history.

This is believed by some.
Judas comes to mind...
Pharaoh.
Mary. Which God did call, but I do believe this was planned by Him.
I could be in the positive or in the negative.
Not calling for some specific reason that needed to be completed,
or calling for some specific reason that needed to be completed.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Agreed.
Chapter 8 is indeed about moral issues.
But why post 8:20-21??
It speaks of all CREATION being subjected to God's curse.
Do you include man with all creation?
But if so, it wouldn't then go on to say that all creation looks forward to the day when it will join GOD'S CHILDREN.


I'm still having a problem understanding moral boundaries...
It might just be a concept that might take some time...

All of creation is fallen, being under the curse of God. Our bondage to disobedience is the curse. That's the moral boundary set by God in the creation account that we have no choice but to submit to (flaming sword). Only in Christ are we allowed to venture out of the part of the maze we have been confined to in which we freely move about in in our sin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The "some people" would include Moses, Abraham, David, and others, for example the Saints in Hebrews.
.

Anybody, great or small, who has faith in God is among the elect. They are elected on the basis of that faith.

 

[returntosender]

So we know that one of the attributes of God is that he is all-knowing and all-present,
which means that he knows everything past, present, and future.

We're told that we have also been given free will to make our own choices.

However, this would mean that nothing we choose out of our free will would come as a "surprise" to God as if he didn't know that was going to happen. He already knows then what choices we are going to make now and the future.

So this means 1 of 2 things.
Either
A) Everything is already predetermined and predestined by God and he knows all that will happen because he is not limited to time but outside of time which means seeing the past and future is simultaneous for him. There is only one universe/timeline that is going to play out and nothing else that would "surprise" God like a "twist" he didn't see coming.

or

B) God has created an infinite number of timelines/multiverses that exist BASED on every possible choice that every single human being makes in the history of this timeline. In other words, God would still know the outcome of all the infinite other possible timelines based on what choice I make today. So we still have free will to choose which timeline we are going to play out based on the choices I make today, right here, right now. God doesn't actually know which timeline I'm going to play out because it's my free will to choose BUT he does know what the outcome and entire timeline of every possible choice I make. (Follow me on this: So God already knows my entire life and timeline if I choose to disobey him and not live the life He wants for me AND he knows the entire life and timeline if I choose to obey him and follow him wholeheartedly. All the possible outcomes he already knows, but since we have free will, He is allows us to choose which timeline we are actually going to play out and that is the only part He doesn't actually know what I'll choose.

Please comment or correct me.

But that whole post is not fair if we don't know what gods plan is for us, right?

 

[for_his_glory]

But that whole post is not fair if we don't know what gods plan is for us, right?

To know God's plans for us is to know His will. How do we know His will is by reading His word to know God's will is to accept His Son Christ Jesus as our Lord and Savior and walk in the newness of life as we walk in the unity of His Holy Spirit as the unity is of love for one another.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It's the concept of the rat maze itself, not that it's rats that are running around in it, that best illustrates the truth of man's free will operating within God's free will, thus preserving both. I find it ridiculous that Dorothy is offended that in the analogy we are the rats that run through the maze. Just ridiculous. That's not the point of the illustration. Would she feel better if I had said cute little guinea pigs, lol? Offense is the number one problem among us Christians, and frankly, I'm getting tired of it.

When you stand before the living God, you will have to give an answer as to why you accuse Him of handling men like rats.

I am not the least offended. You accuse God of evil and I defend Him because I know and love Him. There are others reading this who learn falsehood from your writings. I am answering you because of them who will be tempted to think that God treats men like rats.